are all our temps too high for our bps?

i have been keeping my bps at the same standard bp temps just like everyone else(c80-82, h90-94) and they are doing great!

heres the thing: i have been reading VPI's "Pythons of the World, Vol 2", (which the the "real complete ball python manual" in my opinion) and the Barkers say that these temps are not necessary and that their ball pythons are successfully kept and bred at an ambient temperature of 78-80 with a basking spot of 84-86.

to me this makes sense because since bps are nocturnal they are most likely hiding all day in burrows from the intense african heat and when they come out at night it must be much cooler than the day time temperatures. not to say that bps would never experience high temperatures but i would think that they would be sheltered from the heat and sleeping during the day rather than openly chilling in direct sunlight so these proposed lower temperatures do make sense.

i am in no way questioning the validity of these temperature values because they were proposed by VPI and who the heck am i to question them!:O i just want to start a discussion and see what you guys think! so...

what do you guys think about maintaining these temperatures for the care of your bps? has anyone here read the book and switched to the lower temperatures? anybody been using these temps with or without success for a while now?

feel free to add anything else!:gj:

ruh roh.. i would be interested to hear the answer to this for sure!!

Sometimes my tanks end up being in that lower temp range just because my boyfriend cannot stand to have the house any hotter than 74 degrees (which, to me, is freezing!!!!) But my two girls seem to do just fine. They go back and forth between the warm side and the hot side, so I guess they're just well adjusted. I suspect that if they were really cold, then they'd always be over the heater. But they aren't, so I don't worry. I think my ambient is about 78 and the hot side is in the upper 80s.

I keep most of my Pythons around 87-90 hot side... The room stays around 75-77...

I've never kept a snake at 94.

Judy and I have actually discussed this. For the hobbiest keeper, we believe that if we recommend warmer temps that have worked for most of us, and the keeper is not able to keep their temps quite that warm - at least in their attempt, they will be keeping their animals in a healthy range. If we recommend cooler, then the average pet keeper might feel that they can drop even cooler than that, which could be detrimental.

In the past year, I have found myself realizing from reading the Barker's book, NERD's book, and other keepers, that there really are many ways to successfully keep these animals. I don't freak out so much if my temps dip a bit in the evening (because I do keep them in the warmer recommendations) and to quote BT - "do what works for you!"

I think to really answer the question one must know the true purpose and function of heat. From my own experience from observations and studies as a biology major, heat is a form of energy. It the root difference between warm blooded and cold blooded animals. Humans are mammals which are warm blooded creatures. If a human gets a fever of 105 degrees F then they are in serious trouble. Such a slight change in temperature can be the difference between life and death for us. This is because our metabolism functions best at a particular temperature. If those temperature rise too much then it causes degredation of protein and important enzymes. So therefore humans must maintain a relatively constant body temperature to function properly.

As for cold blooded species, the majority of their body temperature comes not from metabolic activity but from the environment they live in. This is why they can tolerate such vast ranges in temperature compared to warm blooded species. So to get to the point, it is really a matter of at what temperature do ball pythons function the best. As long as there is a temperature gradient within their range then just let them control their own body temp.

This doesnt really truly answer the question, it is just my thoughts on the subject and hopefully gives the rest of you something to think about.

:) Very good point. The main thing is to make sure there is a gradient available and that the general temps are not too low or too high. After that, it's up to the snake.

Oh, and just one minor thing, Ringo: we biologists no longer say 'warm blooded' and 'cold blooded'... now it's endothermic and exothermic. :D

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Judy and I have actually discussed this. For the hobbiest keeper, we believe that if we recommend warmer temps that have worked for most of us, and the keeper is not able to keep their temps quite that warm - at least in their attempt, they will be keeping their animals in a healthy range. If we recommend cooler, then the average pet keeper might feel that they can drop even cooler than that, which could be detrimental.

In the past year, I have found myself realizing from reading the Barker's book, NERD's book, and other keepers, that there really are many ways to successfully keep these animals. I don't freak out so much if my temps dip a bit in the evening (because I do keep them in the warmer recommendations) and to quote BT - "do what works for you!"

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Great answer! I agree, that for the average person it would be better for them to shoot for the higher temps than settle for the lower.

Especially when you take into account that VPIs snakes grow slowly. I have an 06 male poss het Axanthic that is the same size as some of my 07s. He's still around 4-500g

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Originally Posted by Argentra

:)

Oh, and just one minor thing, Ringo: we biologists no longer say 'warm blooded' and 'cold blooded'... now it's endothermic and exothermic. :D

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To be more accurate, cold-blooded is called ectothermic (exothermic is used in thermochemistry, not thermophysiology for some reason). Sometimes "cold-blooded" critters are called "poikilotherms."

If you want to be real technical, poikilothermic doesn't mean the same thing exact thing as ectothermic. "Ecto" means to use the external means to control you inside body temperature. "Poikilo" means to have your internal temperature the same as the ambient temperature (and vary as such).

So an animal could technically be ectothermic and not poikilothermic. For example, a large cold-blooded critters like a great white shark is ecothermic, but when it dives to great depths it is much warmer than the outside environment. Great whites have low surface area to volume ratios which allow them to keep their core body temperatures higher than their environments for great periods of time.

The whole subject of thermophysiology is much more complicated than warm vs cold blood. Some animals display different thermoregualtion depending on the time of day, year, or part of their life cycle.

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Originally Posted by Ringo

As for cold blooded species, the majority of their body temperature comes not from metabolic activity but from the environment they live in. This is why they can tolerate such vast ranges in temperature compared to warm blooded species. So to get to the point, it is really a matter of at what temperature do ball pythons function the best. As long as there is a temperature gradient within their range then just let them control their own body temp.

.

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You seem to be confusing the ideas of body temperature and envirnomental temperature. I think you probably understand the difference but you wrote in a confusing way above.

For ectothermic animals like snakes-they can tolerate changes in their body temperature--They sort of have to since their body temperature is dependent upon the fluctuating environmental temperatures! This, however, doesn't mean they can tolerate just any environmental temperature or just any temperature gradient for long periods of time. Unlike endothermic animals they cant burn brown fat to change the body temperature. Basically, they don't use metabolic means to generate heat for their bodies. They do however have metabolic adjustments for their fluctuating body temperatures. They can tolerate some changing body temperatures by switching between different forms of enzymes. Each enzyme form, or isozyme, is optimized for a different body temperature range. So they can survive at a lower temp. gradient by adjusting the relative levels of different isozymes. Still the types of different isozymes they have are limited. If they don't have isozymes that function in that range then they wont survive long at those temperatures.


These are helpful links

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warm-blooded

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold-blooded

http://coolcosmos.ipac.caltech.edu/i.../coldwarm.html

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Judy and I have actually discussed this. For the hobbiest keeper, we believe that if we recommend warmer temps that have worked for most of us, and the keeper is not able to keep their temps quite that warm - at least in their attempt, they will be keeping their animals in a healthy range. If we recommend cooler, then the average pet keeper might feel that they can drop even cooler than that, which could be detrimental.

In the past year, I have found myself realizing from reading the Barker's book, NERD's book, and other keepers, that there really are many ways to successfully keep these animals. I don't freak out so much if my temps dip a bit in the evening (because I do keep them in the warmer recommendations) and to quote BT - "do what works for you!"

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This seems like a pretty prudent compromise....universal precaution...given that our state of knowledge with these animals in captivity is still somewhat developing.

I think the important thing to stress is a gradient. The exact range of the gradient still seems to be a matter of debate or personal preference to me. It might not be even that important to keep the gradient the same throughout the entire year. I believe that as long as the gradient doesn't get very low or change very suddenly than ball pythons are robust enough to withstand some variation in the gradient.


However, there could be potential advantages that have been overlooked in keeping the gradient lower than conventional wisdom has taught.....in that bacteria grow slower at lower temperatures.

Humidity is also a big consideration...in that sometimes raising the temperature in a room to get that "idealized range" in a cold northeastern home may have the unfortunate side effect of lowering the humidity too much. It can be a balancing acting...but I guess that more of the art of keeping an exotic animal.

I'm so glad someone brought this up. My temps and humidity are spot-on. However my BP has NEVER used her warm side hide. In fact, she NEVER even goes to the warm side. I have been wanting to lower the temps just a bit, and now I know it's what I should do. Thanks again.

How do you know? Are you awake 24/7 to watch her? She's likely going in there while you're asleep.

My snakes' temps are at 95/84.5 and they use both sides equally. I'm cooling for 16 hours at 85 warm side and 80 cool side for the adults though.

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Originally Posted by coldbloodaddict

I keep most of my Pythons around 87-90 hot side... The room stays around 75-77...

I've never kept a snake at 94.

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That would be the same for me also, right to the room temp even. My room sits around 75F-77F

I don't keep bps above 90F on the hot site.... cool side is around 82-84F

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

To be more accurate, cold-blooded is called ectothermic (exothermic is used in thermochemistry, not thermophysiology for some reason). Sometimes "cold-blooded" critters are called "poikilotherms."

If you want to be real technical, poikilothermic doesn't mean the same thing exact thing as ectothermic. "Ecto" means to use the external means to control you inside body temperature. "Poikilo" means to have your internal temperature the same as the ambient temperature (and vary as such).

So an animal could technically be ectothermic and not poikilothermic. For example, a large cold-blooded critters like a great white shark is ecothermic, but when it dives to great depths it is much warmer than the outside environment. Great whites have low surface area to volume ratios which allow them to keep their core body temperatures higher than their environments for great periods of time.

The whole subject of thermophysiology is much more complicated than warm vs cold blood. Some animals display different thermoregualtion depending on the time of day, year, or part of their life cycle.



You seem to be confusing the ideas of body temperature and envirnomental temperature. I think you probably understand the difference but you wrote in a confusing way above.

For ectothermic animals like snakes-they can tolerate changes in their body temperature--They sort of have to since their body temperature is dependent upon the fluctuating environmental temperatures! This, however, doesn't mean they can tolerate just any environmental temperature or just any temperature gradient for long periods of time. Unlike endothermic animals they cant burn brown fat to change the body temperature. Basically, they don't use metabolic means to generate heat for their bodies. They do however have metabolic adjustments for their fluctuating body temperatures. They can tolerate some changing body temperatures by switching between different forms of enzymes. Each enzyme form, or isozyme, is optimized for a different body temperature range. So they can survive at a lower temp. gradient by adjusting the relative levels of different isozymes. Still the types of different isozymes they have are limited. If they don't have isozymes that function in that range then they wont survive long at those temperatures.

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Thank you, when I read endothermic and exothermic I said uhhh what? You beat me to the corrections.

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Originally Posted by Argentra View Post


Oh, and just one minor thing, Ringo: we biologists no longer say 'warm blooded' and 'cold blooded'... now it's endothermic and exothermic.
To be more accurate, cold-blooded is called ectothermic (exothermic is used in thermochemistry, not thermophysiology for some reason). Sometimes "cold-blooded" critters are called "poikilotherms."

If you want to be real technical, poikilothermic doesn't mean the same thing exact thing as ectothermic. "Ecto" means to use the external means to control you inside body temperature. "Poikilo" means to have your internal temperature the same as the ambient temperature (and vary as such).

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Doh! I always get beat to the punch. I had a paragraph all ready to go on homeotherm vs. poikilotherm.

Anyway, My bps are never over 90 and they do just great. Eat like champs and are healthy as can be. They seem to prefer the mid 80's and rarely hug the heat unless they are grumpy pregnant females. ;)

My .02

Cheers,
Kat

Thanks for the correction all, I spelled it wrong and the spellcheck chose that word. :oops::P

Also, I was still sort of tired when I typed that up.

Ya same for me Argentra. My post is what happens when a crazy biology student gets doped up on tylenol pm lol. I just went back and read what i wrote and it was written as well as it probably should have been. It did bring up some really interesting corrections though.

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Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

Especially when you take into account that VPIs snakes grow slowly. I have an 06 male poss het Axanthic that is the same size as some of my 07s. He's still around 4-500g

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maybe the lower temps and slower growth will increase the total life expectancy of the animal similar to the effects on life expectancy by weekly feeding and power feeding.

and if thats the only VPI animal you own then it may not be fair to generalize all VPI animals to be slower growing due to lower temps. although it may certainly be a possibility but if you purchased it as a hatchling and are now keeping it at the same temps as all your other balls then it should have started growing at a faster rate due to your higher temps.

Some actually do not provide a gradient, I have read. I "think" it was the Sutherlands, who simply heat the whole enclosure to one temperature? I am going to have to dig on this one and see who it is was does this..
EDIT I looked over their site; their caresheet recommends only covering half of the underside of cage with heat.. so I don't think it's them.. anyone remember?