Continuous or Cycle breed?

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1447856,1450228

It's not really a debate, but on KS, it is argued that if the rats have enough food, they can easily get 5 litters out before they are made into feeders themselves on continuous harem breeding.

I know that all I can really expect out of cycle breeding is a good 5-6 litters before they are retired or fed off.

I don't know how old they are after 5 continuous litters, and I have no proof if it is detrimental to their health. All I know is that wild rats average about a year, and they will produce in high amounts until there are too many. I don't know how many litters they get out, but I'm pretty sure it's not 5 litters a year.

Just looking for some evidence for both sides of the story I guess.
(I personally cycle, and like to have my rats around for as long as they naturally can)

I personally think cycle breeding is the best way to go. I mean the girls get a break and your breeders will last longer. :D And your snakes will be very happy...:P:snake:

I leave mine together always. In 1.3 groups but to be honest I don't really know how long or how many litters I get out of my females. I am sure I may get another litter or two out of my females if I did cycle them but I have not tested that to find out. I usually keep the females around until they get that ragged out look to them and then I sell them off to friends with boas but their are a few that I keep around until they die naturally (I feel bad feeding off females that were especially good breeders for me). My oldest female is about 2 years old. She still looks healthy but she does not really produce much for me anymore. Her last litter was about 4 months ago and it was only 6 pinks where she used to give me 15-20 when she was in her prime.

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Originally Posted by pfan151

I leave mine together always. In 1.3 groups but to be honest I don't really know how long or how many litters I get out of my females. I am sure I may get another litter or two out of my females if I did cycle them but I have not tested that to find out. I usually keep the females around until they get that ragged out look to them and then I sell them off to friends with boas but their are a few that I keep around until they die naturally (I feel bad feeding off females that were especially good breeders for me).

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Okay, do you happen to know how long they last for you? Years wise? And, do you have any weights on the feeders? I'm just trying to compare notes here

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I hope this doesnt turn into a brow beating session :P

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Okay, do you happen to know how long they last for you? Years wise? And, do you have any weights on the feeders? I'm just trying to compare notes here

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I hope this doesnt turn into a brow beating session :P

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Do you mean the weights of the breeders, feeders, or newborn pinks? I feed them off at various sizes, but I wean them at about three weeks and then usually give them another week or two to put on a little size. I generally feed all of my adults bp's feeders that are around 100g. Are you thinking that the litters grow slower when with non cycled mothers? I personally don't think it negatively affects the litters growth rate, and in some cases I think it may actually make the litter grow faster due to the fact that the babies can get fed by more than one female. My females range from only lasting about 9 months up to my oldest female that is around 2 years old. The shorter life span females seem to be more due to the heat in the summer than being overbred though. I rarely have any die in the winter months.

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Originally Posted by pfan151

Are you thinking that the litters grow slower when with non cycled mothers? I personally don't think it negatively affects the litters growth rate, and in some cases I think it may actually make the litter grow faster due to the fact that the babies can get fed by more than one female. My females range from only lasting about 9 months up to my oldest female that is around 2 years old. The shorter life span females seem to be more due to the heat in the summer than being overbred though. I rarely have any die in the winter months.

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Right, I'm just seeing how things go with the cycle harem breeding. So the females don't live as long, and can you say that if one mother is slacking for any reason, the others pick up her slack?

Do you happen to have an average age of mothers, like 1 year or maybe 9 months?
And do you think that if the females were cycled with even 2 weeks off if it would make a difference in number of litters?

Another thing, what is the average number in a litter?

LOL, sorry for all the questions, but I just want to know from someone that has done it.

I cycle my females. I give them some time off between breedings. I do not have a hard-set time for this; I just read te female. If she is robust and none the worse for wear, I could re-breed her in as little as 10 days from her babies being weaned. If she was maybe a tad small when bred, I definately give her as much time off as she seems to need, to grow. This only applies to girls I purposely, or accidentally, bought as preggers; I do Not breed my own raised-up females when they are too young/small.

One thing Harem breeders don't take into account is the size and quality of the offspring litters. Yes, you will get about the same number of litters (on average) regardless if you give the breeders a break or not...but with Harem litters they tend to be fewer in number each time, smaller in size (weight) and though hard to prove would have less nutrients. (the breeder is supplying all the nutrients - vitamins, calcium, etc....as hers are depleted each litter with less time to recoop them then the next litter is shorted). Usually with Harem breeders the last litter is the worst - and results in the death of the breeder from exhaustion.

I have bred for 10+ years and done it both ways and can say from experience there is a difference in quality and output from the 2 methods.

Hope this helps.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Right, I'm just seeing how things go with the cycle harem breeding. So the females don't live as long, and can you say that if one mother is slacking for any reason, the others pick up her slack?

Do you happen to have an average age of mothers, like 1 year or maybe 9 months?
And do you think that if the females were cycled with even 2 weeks off if it would make a difference in number of litters?

Another thing, what is the average number in a litter?

LOL, sorry for all the questions, but I just want to know from someone that has done it.

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I can not say for sure on you first two questions because I do not really have anthing to compare it to. As for size of litters, I would say the average is around 10-12. But I have some females that give 15+ and some that only give 6-8. I actually think the smaller litters may be do to me being an idiot and holding back the cool looking females rather than always picking the biggest to hold back. Honestly though, if I had more space and did not mind cleaning a bunch of extra tubs I probably would cycle the females. For me though the extra time, space, cost, and just having all of those extra adult female rats to feed and raise is not worth the slightly larger litters and slightly longer life span on the females. I don't really worry too much about litter size or anything like that. As long as I have enough rats at the end of the week to feed my collection I am happy. I just feed them Mazuri, keep them watered and clean and collect my feeders at the end of the week.

I know I cycle most of my female rats. A few of my big female breeders I'll breed back to back twice and then give that female some time off. Most of my females I'll breed and once that litter is weaned that female rat gets a month off before being placed back in with a male. I don't have a huge number of snakes, so I don't need to breed a lot of rats.

Im a cycler, but Im always going through dry spells. I think Im going to switch to continuous breeding, just as pfan said, I dont have the time, space, or money to have rats around that arent producing.

I geuss that, being a female, I am more fond of cycle breeding. I believe that females of most any species need a rest between pregnancies. I just put myself into the rat's position; would I want to be continuously bred or nursing without a break? No.
It seems pretty selfish to deny female rats a break, just because we want to pump more babies out of them. Again, this is my opinion. To each their own.
I do have some dry spells, but I am growing up 0.6 right now to supplement this operation.

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

It seems pretty selfish to deny female rats a break, just because we want to pump more babies out of them. Again, this is my opinion. To each their own.
I do have some dry spells, but I am growing up 0.6 right now to supplement this operation.

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I don't see how you can call it selfish? Rats in the wild don't get breaks. My rats are fed top quality food and live a normal lifespan for a rat. Probably even a bit longer than normal when compared to wild rats.

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Originally Posted by pfan151

I don't see how you can call it selfish? Rats in the wild don't get breaks. My rats are fed top quality food and live a normal lifespan for a rat. Probably even a bit longer than normal when compared to wild rats.

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I'm with you John - I don't think it's selfish at all...My rats have a purpose - To produce feeders...There not pets - There breeders...I don't have a huge operation going on but I produce somewhere around 500 rats a month...I don't have the time, space or the desire to seperate pregos...I need all the pups, weanlings, smalls and mediums I can get...Once my female breeders litters start getting down in the single digits - They get gased they go to the Borneos...
BT

Well, rats in the wild have a 95% mortality rate before the age of 1 year. Their breeding is almost completely controlled by the population density in the area. (This comes around in the form of different types of breeding practices by males)

I have been unable to find any evidence to support your theory that they are pregnant continuously, and I haven't found any to say that they are not, except for what is stated above.

My point being, if the female rats are visibly suffering from being continously bred, then it can be called selfish. As of right now, I don't have any proof for either stance.

I have been able to find one article, and I will be following up with the resources that are cited at the end of the article. This article does have citations that a week of rest between litters in beneficial, but more reading is required to make any definite conclusions.

http://www.cavyrescue.co.uk/rat-article26.shtml

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

I have been able to find one article, and I will be following up with the resources that are cited at the end of the article. This article does have citations that a week of rest between litters in beneficial, but more reading is required to make any definite conclusions.

http://www.cavyrescue.co.uk/rat-article26.shtml

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I have no doubt that rest probably does prolong their life, but I also don't think continuous breeding makes me selfish or unethical. For me, getting one or two more good litters out of a female before she is fed off is not worth the extra time, money, and space. If my rats were "pets" I would obviously think differently. My rats are kept clean and given the best food on the market. IMO if their bodies were not designed to be able to handle continuous breeding they would not have evolved the ability to do so. I get a normal average lifespan from my rats. If I did not I would not allow them to breed continuously.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

My point being, if the female rats are visibly suffering from being continously bred, then it can be called selfish. As of right now, I don't have any proof for either stance.

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If it gets to the point were a female is visibly suffering it's time for her to be replaced...
BT

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Originally Posted by pfan151

I have no doubt that rest probably does prolong their life, but I also don't think continuous breeding makes me selfish or unethical. For me, getting one or two more good litters out of a female before she is fed off is not worth the extra time, money, and space. If my rats were "pets" I would obviously think differently. My rats are kept clean and given the best food on the market. IMO if their bodies were not designed to be able to handle continuous breeding they would not have evolved the ability to do so. I get a normal average lifespan from my rats. If I did not I would not allow them to breed continuously.

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Good points. They have been made to breed continuously, I just wonder where the line is between being healthy and raising pups, and running them through till they die from exhaustion or what not.

In the wild, they have a few more things to worry about then just breeding; predators, parasites, maintaining territory/nests... food supplies, and population. I think these things weigh in heavier than them dieing from continuous breeding.

I haven't read anything that says what they die from when the best conditions are met, but I guess it is safe to say it's from continuous breeding. Since in that same article, she states that wild rats get about 5 litters, which matches up with the average from continuous breeding.

So in that respect, they may not be able to handle continuous breeding in the wild all the time, but they have been given the ability to do that to keep their species alive in times of "feast".

Very interesting points pfan, I may have to do some of my own controlled experiments in the future to make a solid conclusion either way. :gj: