Possible IBD?

I am new to this forum, but not to snake keeping. I have had the snake I am asking the question about for 3 years now. Unfortunately, it has only been recently that my snakes have started having health problems.
There is a lot of history that I could include, but I am going to try to keep this to a minimum. Sheba is 3 years old, I am unsure how much she weighs, and just recently had mites. At the suggestion of a friend, whose aunt is a reptile curator at a zoo, I used a pesticide, Sevin dust, to treat the mites. I know better now, but I am including that information because I think it is necessary. That was two months ago. Just recently I noticed Sheba moving strangely, so I immediately quarrantined her because I feared IBD, or neurological damage. I do have a video of the way she moves, but I have to explain one thing quick. In the video it definitely looks like IBD, but two symptoms for IBD don't fit. First of all she is very alert, knows immediately when I put prey in her tank, (which she doesn't strike) and does not stargaze. Secondly, even though she didn't do it in the video, she can flip herself back over. My daughter and I have force fed her a small pinky rat twice now, only because it was absolutely necessary. Unfortunately I cannot get her into a vet until monday, because there are only two herp vets in the area and they are both extremely busy. My question is do you guys think there is any hope for my baby? It breaks my heart seeing her like this, but I am afraid I will have to have her put to sleep, for her own good and the good of the rest of my collection.
Here is the video.
http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/c...p95/th_021.jpg
tlc929

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Originally Posted by tlc929

I am new to this forum, but not to snake keeping. I have had the snake I am asking the question about for 3 years now. Unfortunately, it has only been recently that my snakes have started having health problems.
There is a lot of history that I could include, but I am going to try to keep this to a minimum. Sheba is 3 years old, I am unsure how much she weighs, and just recently had mites. At the suggestion of a friend, whose aunt is a reptile curator at a zoo, I used a pesticide, Sevin dust, to treat the mites. I know better now, but I am including that information because I think it is necessary. That was two months ago. Just recently I noticed Sheba moving strangely, so I immediately quarrantined her because I feared IBD, or neurological damage. I do have a video of the way she moves, but I have to explain one thing quick. In the video it definitely looks like IBD, but two symptoms for IBD don't fit. First of all she is very alert, knows immediately when I put prey in her tank, (which she doesn't strike) and does not stargaze. Secondly, even though she didn't do it in the video, she can flip herself back over. My daughter and I have force fed her a small pinky rat twice now, only because it was absolutely necessary. Unfortunately I cannot get her into a vet until monday, because there are only two herp vets in the area and they are both extremely busy. My question is do you guys think there is any hope for my baby? It breaks my heart seeing her like this, but I am afraid I will have to have her put to sleep, for her own good and the good of the rest of my collection.
Here is the video.
http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/c...p95/th_021.jpg
tlc929

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If she had IBD she would have died over 2 and a half years ago;).This IBD kills pythons in months not years.I think she might have something neurological.Please dont use that sevins stuff again.Please take her to a vet ASAP and keep us posted

Yes, please take her to a vet. IBD kills pythons quickly (weeks). Unless you've added any snakes into your area recently, she would have succumb to it years ago. You also say she had mites recently, where did they come from?

whats up with the flies??

She only started doing this two weeks ago. Before that she was a happy, healthy snake, no problems whatsoever. I am unsure where the mites might have come from. The last snake I bought was in July, a Brazilian Rainbow Boa, but Sheba has never been exposed to her. My sister in law said she read somewhere online that some snake keepers have said they got mites from cyprus mulch, but I don't know if that is even possible. The Sevin dust did work, but it isn't worth the risks. This was my first time of ever having mites, and I freaked out. Every time we go into a pet store my sister in law and my daughter both have to hold all the snakes, so the mites might have come in that way. I don't think I will ever know for sure.
I do have an appointment for monday with a vet for Sheba, but it is driving me crazy, going that long without her being seen. If we weren't having such terrible snow storms lately I would probably drive her the 100 miles to Madison to be seen sooner.
tlc929

This reminds me of another keeper, she had no new snakes introduced (I think), but let someone handle her snakes, who had recently lost her own snake to a mysterious disease, and unfortunetly she did lose her whole collection.

[edit]
Is the Boa in the same room?

I'm not one to blame IBD, but it does rattle you a bit when a snake gets sick for no reason. Hopefully it is treatable and will have little to no side effects.

I am praying it isn't IBD.
Sheba is being kept on the main floor of the house, and all my other snakes are in the basement. When Sheba was kept in the basement she wasn't in the same room as any of my boas. Besides the rainbow I also have 2 redtails. They are kept in a different room, away from all the pythons.
tlc929

If you are frequently handling snakes at a high-traffic retail shop, it possible you could have brought it home on your person, but it would have to have been recently. As joepythons says, it is a rapid killer in pythons (but not boas) so you would be looking at an exposure to the virus in the last month or so.

Sevin dust would be my first guess for the culprit. It's horribly toxic, and definitely can cause neurologic problems. I've seen dogs seizure when treated with sevin dust for fleas.

If she fails to recover, please have a necropsy done.

In all honesty, I seriously doubt she has IBD. She is only certain issues---no RI, no stargazing, still able to right herself. Pythons go quickly to IBD and typically show a good range of symptoms. Plus, if the only other snake introduced into your collection came in around 6 months ago, I would count that out.

If I had to hazard a guess, I would say her problems issue from the use of the Sevin Dust... considering it's an insecticide/pesticide with some pretty powerful ingredients, I would say her neurological problems stem from this. Can I ask how you treated her? Did you place her in the cage along with the dust?

Unfortunately, I doubt there will be anything you can do, but would definitely get her to a vet as soon as you can.

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Originally Posted by slartibartfast

If you are frequently handling snakes at a high-traffic retail shop, it possible you could have brought it home on your person, but it would have to have been recently. As joepythons says, it is a rapid killer in pythons (but not boas) so you would be looking at an exposure to the virus in the last month or so.

Sevin dust would be my first guess for the culprit. It's horribly toxic, and definitely can cause neurologic problems. I've seen dogs seizure when treated with sevin dust for fleas.

If she fails to recover, please have a necropsy done.

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Got distracted and you beat me to it :)

This is a little bit off my original topic, but I have seen a lot of people recommend Provent a Mite. Is this something that can be used on a regular, weekly basis? My normal cleaning now involves removing the snakes from their enclosures, giving them a bath, and using lots and lots of water to clean out their enclosures, then using a shop vac to suck up all the water. I do that every week, or more often, if the snakes shed or poo in their enclosures. It does get to be quite time consuming, but I am very emotionally attached to all of my snakes, and I want to give them the healthiest living conditions I can.
tlc929

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Originally Posted by jdmls88

whats up with the flies??

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My thought Exactly!!

Yes, PAM is perfectly safe for reptiles and can be used on a regular basis... though I would recommend letting it air out and dry after spraying, and before you put the snake back in the enclosure.

Sorry about that. They aren't normally in her cage, when I took the lid off I think they went in there for the warmth. This is an older house, with lots of cracks and stuff, and no matter how much we clean and stuff there always seems to be a few around, especially around winter time.
tlc929

I don't mean to be morbid, but if those flies were in her cage I would check your snake over carefully! Make sure there are no eggs... if they smelled a sick animal, they may have been in her cage for other reasons...

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Originally Posted by ladywhipple02

I don't mean to be morbid, but if those flies were in her cage I would check your snake over carefully! Make sure there are no eggs... if they smelled a sick animal, they may have been in her cage for other reasons...

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Yep! Check out her vent....

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Originally Posted by tlc929

Sorry about that. They aren't normally in her cage, when I took the lid off I think they went in there for the warmth. This is an older house, with lots of cracks and stuff, and no matter how much we clean and stuff there always seems to be a few around, especially around winter time.
tlc929

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yea those flies can't be helping the situation..........and it seems to be a good amount of flies! :confused:

Use PAM (Provent-A-Mite) for mites, and get that girl/guy to the vet!

Just because she brought the boa in 6 months ago, and the python is still alive, doesn't mean that the boa definitely isn't carrying inclusion bodies...

As discussed in the other thread, casual handling is NOT considered sufficient for the spread of IBD. Moreoever, it is not airborne and can only be transmitted through contact with bodily fluids. It is possible that this keeper's sanitation practices are not what they should be and it took a while for the snake to contract it.

This is, of course, assuming that the boa is carrying IBD, which is not very common despite the hot talk about it on the internet.

There could have been a temperature spike in the cage - I've seen burned ball pythons act in the same way in the past after being exposed to very high temperatures for even short periods of time.

The snake could also have some kind of systemic infection that is causing it to have neurological problems.

And also, what is up with the flies in and around the cage? One landed on your arm and you didn't appear even phased by it? Is it normal to have that many flies in your house? Or is it limited to your reptile cages?

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

And also, what is up with the flies in and around the cage? One landed on your arm and you didn't appear even phased by it? Is it normal to have that many flies in your house? Or is it limited to your reptile cages?

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I noticed that there is a little dead fuzzy rat in there with the snake. How long had that fuzzy been dead? I saw a few flies land on it...

Also from what I know of, flies are attracted to unclean, sick, and dead things. Flies like that are not normal to be in a snakes cage like that.

What is the green and red dots in the enclosure with her too? I also think she's having a neuroligical reaction either too much heat or from the Sevin dust.

Why do you wash the snakes? And I certainly would not be offering a mouse with my bare hands to her - if she did decide to strike, she's likely going to hit your hand, not the mouse.

Provent a Mite is used one time a month, and you usually don't need more than one or two treatments to take care of mites. She may also have contracted something brought in from the mites.

Also, most vets will make room for an emergency visit, I would call your local vets and tell them that this is an emergency and cannot wait until Monday.

I thought the stiff dead rat pup and the flies were odd, but that, 3 BP and 2 RTB in the same enclosure :mad:

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http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/c...eptile1599.jpg

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(Your photobucket is not private and your pics can be seen by anyone)

Care to explain where you learn your husbandry skills?

Seems to me like you need to do some SERIOUS research! I am not too surprise you are having problems.

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Originally Posted by tlc929

I am praying it isn't IBD.
Sheba is being kept on the main floor of the house, and all my other snakes are in the basement. When Sheba was kept in the basement she wasn't in the same room as any of my boas. Besides the rainbow I also have 2 redtails. They are kept in a different room, away from all the pythons.
tlc929

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Yea. going through your photobucket, this is clearly not the case...

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http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/c...reptile983.jpg

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/c...reptile979.jpg

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/c...reptile970.jpg

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/c...reptile930.jpg

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also should mention, got screen captures...

say it aint so......................

:please: For the sake that is all Holy out there, I pray that those pictures that you have on your photobucket account aren't your snakes! If they indeed are, you really need to change a lot around on how you care for your snakes. You say you have had them for a few years? If so, I'm very surprised you are now just running in to health problems. :O:confused:

This is what your snakes have for them in the near future!
http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/c...reptile970.jpg

They all need head stones!!

JASBALLS,why do you have a Boa and a Python in the same cage?

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Originally Posted by herpmajor

JASBALLS,why do you have a Boa and a Python in the same cage?

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Read the thread again!!:O

yea Jas naughty naughty! haha

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Originally Posted by JoshJP7

yea Jas naughty naughty! haha

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That aint my pic!! I keep retics in with my balls! Not Boas... Jeeeez...

Sorry Jas. LOL nice come back.

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Originally Posted by GA_Ball_Pythons

(Your photobucket is not private and your pics can be seen by anyone)

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It's private now. ;)

It's too bad that these animals aren't kept in better conditions. I was really hoping she'd come back with some sort of logical explaination for why she keeps her animals the way that she does.

Well she obviously read this thread after Deb's post and ran to shut her photobucket up didn't she. Hmmmmm....too bad she's able to do that but not interested in explaining those pictures and how they don't quite jibe with how she portrayed her husbandry and setup as being.

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Well she obviously read this thread after Deb's post and ran to shut her photobucket up didn't she.

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When something goes on the internet, it is there forever. I'm sure enough people have copied her pictures (if not the entire album) by now that there isn't any way of going back on what she has chosen to show the world.

Personally, I am still in shock. I didn't think those pictures could be real, but then I checked them out for myself and... they are.

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/c...reptile905.jpg

Even the milksnakes are filthy. Look at the necrotic, putrefying pinkies in the cage:

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/c...reptile951.jpg

But, there were 3 good photos of our "mystery guest" too:

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/c...reptile948.jpg

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/c...reptile962.jpg

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/c...reptile949.jpg

I think this picture sums it all up... look at the poor snake, gazing out the window. You can almost feel it wishing for freedom:

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/c...reptile900.jpg

How very sad. :(

Don't get me wrong, the conditions are wrong, but as to the pinkies, there are 2 milk snakes, and 2 pinkies in view. Pinkies look really nasty after being in an enclosure over night. So that may be the case? Maybe??

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Originally Posted by tlc929

I am new to this forum, but not to snake keeping.

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sure looks like you are.

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Originally Posted by tlc929

I have had the snake I am asking the question about for 3 years now. Unfortunately, it has only been recently that my snakes have started having health problems.

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just... started having health problems....I am AMAZED!

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Originally Posted by tlc929

There is a lot of history that I could include, but I am going to try to keep this to a minimum.

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maybe you should have included the truth. ;)

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Originally Posted by tlc929

Sheba is 3 years old, I am unsure how much she weighs, and just recently had mites. At the suggestion of a friend, whose aunt is a reptile curator at a zoo, I used a pesticide, Sevin dust, to treat the mites. I know better now, but I am including that information because I think it is necessary. That was two months ago.

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Seriously....sevens dust was recommended by someone at a Zoo??? Remind me to NOT go to that Zoo.

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Originally Posted by tlc929

Just recently I noticed Sheba moving strangely, so I immediately quarrantined her because I feared IBD, or neurological damage.

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Quarrentined her??? What from the 4 other snakes you had her in with?

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Originally Posted by tlc929

I do have a video of the way she moves, but I have to explain one thing quick. In the video it definitely looks like IBD, but two symptoms for IBD don't fit. First of all she is very alert, knows immediately when I put prey in her tank, (which she doesn't strike) and does not stargaze.

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First of all...we aren't stupid. She is NOT very alert and had no care in the world for the pink you put in there...and btw...why were you shoving it in her face?

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Originally Posted by tlc929

Secondly, even though she didn't do it in the video, she can flip herself back over. My daughter and I have force fed her a small pinky rat twice now, only because it was absolutely necessary.

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great...more stress for her.

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Originally Posted by tlc929

Unfortunately I cannot get her into a vet until monday, because there are only two herp vets in the area and they are both extremely busy. My question is do you guys think there is any hope for my baby?

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Tell them it is an EMERGENCY!

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Originally Posted by tlc929

It breaks my heart seeing her like this, but I am afraid I will have to have her put to sleep, for her own good and the good of the rest of my collection.

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Well, for the good of the rest of your collection you need to educate yourself!

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Originally Posted by tlc929

I am unsure where the mites might have come from.

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really???

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Originally Posted by tlc929

The last snake I bought was in July, a Brazilian Rainbow Boa, but Sheba has never been exposed to her.

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I find that hard to believe.

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Originally Posted by tlc929

The Sevin dust did work, but it isn't worth the risks.

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ya think?

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Originally Posted by tlc929

Sheba is being kept on the main floor of the house, and all my other snakes are in the basement.

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Lie.

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Originally Posted by tlc929

When Sheba was kept in the basement she wasn't in the same room as any of my boas. Besides the rainbow I also have 2 redtails. They are kept in a different room, away from all the pythons.tlc929

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LIE!!!

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Originally Posted by tlc929

My normal cleaning now involves removing the snakes from their enclosures, giving them a bath, and using lots and lots of water to clean out their enclosures, then using a shop vac to suck up all the water. I do that every week, or more often, if the snakes shed or poo in their enclosures. It does get to be quite time consuming, but I am very emotionally attached to all of my snakes, and I want to give them the healthiest living conditions I can.
tlc929

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I highly doubt all that!

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Originally Posted by tlc929

Sorry about that. They aren't normally in her cage, when I took the lid off I think they went in there for the warmth. This is an older house, with lots of cracks and stuff, and no matter how much we clean and stuff there always seems to be a few around, especially around winter time.
tlc929

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yea...well flies aren't normally out in the winter. that is just gross.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

It's private now. ;)

It's too bad that these animals aren't kept in better conditions. I was really hoping she'd come back with some sort of logical explaination for why she keeps her animals the way that she does.

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of course it is private now! She is busted.

It is just Aweful that someone would let this happen to their animals.

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Well she obviously read this thread after Deb's post and ran to shut her photobucket up didn't she. Hmmmmm....too bad she's able to do that but not interested in explaining those pictures and how they don't quite jibe with how she portrayed her husbandry and setup as being.

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yep..you know she did.

and now she has no backbone to come back and explain herslef.

*races off to give Meme a big old good rep point for that post!* :)

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Originally Posted by JASBALLS

This is what your snakes have for them in the near future!
http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/c...reptile970.jpg

They all need head stones!!

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the worst part about it.......she runs, don't run away get some help!

Obviously, she doesn't care so much for her snakes as she says or she would be back on this forum asking for help.

Ignorance is one thing... voluntary ignorance is quite another, and I personally consider it one of the biggest sins out there. Why would anyone purposefully refuse to learn? Greater than that, why would they purposefully put their pets in a terrible situation because they refuse to learn.

I'm going to go bang my head against the wall... be back later...

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Originally Posted by ladywhipple02

I'm going to go bang my head against the wall... be back later...

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Here you go dear.....

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...ngHeadHere.jpg

:O She'll break her monitor! Dont do it Lynn, print it and tape it to your desk first! I already have a copy

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

:O She'll break her monitor! Dont do it Lynn, print it and tape it to your desk first! I already have a copy

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Some days around here, you need one! :rofl:

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

:O She'll break her monitor! Dont do it Lynn, print it and tape it to your desk first! I already have a copy

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Actually, I think I'm going to do that! Lol... there are certainly some people in the office that would appreciate that!

This post was another good example of why some people should not own any living creature. :mad:

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Here you go dear.....

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...ngHeadHere.jpg

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My head hurts now, I think I did it too many time!

Really Deb? Cuz that cleared my headache right up! ;)

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Originally Posted by ladywhipple02

Really Deb? Cuz that cleared my headache right up! ;)

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Well that's because I did not have a headache to start with ;) , that all Jo's fault she did not give instructions on how to use this :8:

I need that sign for quite a few threads recently, actually.......:oops:

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Originally Posted by GA_Ball_Pythons

Well that's because I did not have a headache to start with ;) , that all Jo's fault she did not give instructions on how to use this :8:

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Geesh Deb if you need instructions on how to properly bash your head! :rofl:

All I can say is wow. I thought I've heard and seen it all.
At least we solved the fly mystery:irkd::worry:

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Geesh Deb if you need instructions on how to properly bash your head! :rofl:

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Remember in this country they put instructions and warning on everything so now I am expecting it everywhere :rofl: (and I guess for some people it is needed :rolleyes:)

Now since there wasn’t any instructions and I hurt myself I guess I can sue you right? :8: