force feeding advice?

Trying to get a little advice here...

I have an aprox. 9-10 m/o normal female ball - she's been sick - and taken to the vet.. currently being medicated.

(Original thread:http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=57176 for the history on this...)

She hasn't eaten in about 3 weeks, as she really just doesn't have that much control to strike yet. Her anti-biotic has a vitamin supplement added, but the vet shares our concern with her being so young and not having the nutrition she needs, and suggested that we try force feeding her a pinky or two(Normally, she can eat a normal size mouse or baby rat...)

Any tips and tricks on how to do this? I can get a cat/dog to swallow a pill, but I have a feeling this is going to be a tad bit more complicated..;)

After I post, I'll search and see if there has been a thread on this already.. and hopefully get all sorts of feedback in the meantime:gj::please:

Thanks SO much!

:reading:

How much does she weigh? Has she lost weight? 3 weeks isn't that much for a BP that has adequate body weight. I have had Bp's fast for 4-5 months with no ill side effects. I didn't read your other thread but if the snake is getting antibiotics it probably won't want to eat. Force feeding is extremely stressful on a snake and should only be done as a last resort. if she isn't loosing weight and sunken in i wouldn't force and just wait till she is better. if she was eating small rats and is 9 months old I would figure she has some size to her?

9-10 months is a good size for a BP to go without food for a while... Have you first tried assist feeding?

To be honest, we had her weighed when we brought her in to the vet last week, and I meant to write it down, and it completely slipped my mind. The only scale I have in the house is a cheap kitchen pound scale....

She looks a little dehydrated, from what I can tell by things I've read.. a little wrinkle here and there where she's bent..?? but I know she's drinking..I've seen her in the water, and I've watched her throat to see if she was getting anything down...

The avatar I have is a picture of her in October when we got her.. she hasn't gotten too much bigger than that - she's had one shed before she got sick.

I know that force feeding is stressful.... but being that the vet suggested it (I don't know exactly what her "specialty" is, but she is the exotic vet in the next town over..) shouldn't I try it??

I just want our girl to get better.....*sigh*

Assist feeding? Okay... I guess I'm new to that terminology...

What is that?

although I understand that 3-4 weeks isn't a long time as far as fasting goes - is it any different because she is trying to fight this infection??

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Originally Posted by JuliaGoolia

although I understand that 3-4 weeks isn't a long time as far as fasting goes - is it any different because she is trying to fight this infection??

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Most snakes won't eat when they are sick.
Assist feeding and force feeding are different.

Force feeding is much more stressful and a much higher chance of regurge which could do more harm than the illness she's got. They can get severe burns from stomach acids.

Assist feeding is done mostly to hatchlings that haven't had their first meal and helps get their natural feeding response going.

I would wait until you are done with meds and then try feeding after 4 or 5 days.

Along with your advice, ive decided to wait. I didn't think she was losing weight just by looking at her, but I couldnt be sure as I don't have a good digi scale here.. but she looks as though she is about to go into her 2nd shed.. her scales are dull and her eyes are starting to get "that" look to them..
so given that, I'm guessing she's doing okay as far as her weight goes. Now I'm just a little nervous to give her her meds (all 3!!??) while she's about to shed. She's cranky enough....

Ahhh... all for the love of little Dagron....

3 weeks isn't anything for most snakes. Do your meds and be patient. Force feeding is ridiculously stressful on a snake. Good advice from the people above.

A little update -

She still hasn't eaten, for one.

With meds being administered for this long she has been getting a lot stronger and healthier. But her head and the 2-3 inches behind it still don't have as good control as she used to.

We've kept the feeder mouse in another tank - and to make a long story short, one of the cats figured out how to get into the tank and get the mouse. he's done it twice in two days. We chased him down and got the mouse, thinking it would still be alive as it was the day before.. but to no avail. Dead mouse under the Christmas tree!!:O

So.. we picked up the mouse and put it in our little Dagron's cage, holding our breath and crossing our fingers..

...and I think it stressed her out more than anything. I'm not real sure why...?? Because it was dead? (She's used to live) Because she's hungry and can't strike to eat?

So our girl STILL hasn't eaten since late Oct/early Nov., and now a mouse makes her a little loopy. I don't get it.:confused:

Maybe I should just wait until she's completely better.. but the way things are going....?? I think we need to bring her back to the vet.


I *never* thought I would feel this way about a serpent!..lol!

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So our girl STILL hasn't eaten since late Oct/early Nov

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1# I would recommend you to buy a scale (kitchen scale will do) and monitor your BP's weight.

2# Beside the health issue that have played a part in your BP’s refusals could you tell us more about her husbandry?

What type of enclosure do you use?
How big is your enclosure?
Is your enclosure in a low traffic area?
What are your temps (cool & warm side)?
What is your humidity?
What type of thermometer/hygrometer do you use (dial,stick,or digital)?
What kind of hides do you provide (log, homemade, cubbyholes etc) and how many do you have?
Are your hides tight (all side touching your BP's body) and identical?
How often do you handle your BP?

3# Force feeding should be done as a last resort when everything else has failed and the animal's health is declining.

i posted this picture in another thread I posted about the humidity in the tank.. but here it is..

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...s/PC201735.jpg

Don't mind the little thermometer on the glass - we don't use it. It's just kind of "there".

We have her in a 20L glass tank. (I am not so sure I want to have her in the tank, but I'm not pulling as much rank as I had hoped I would as far as switching her to a tub..)

Her tank is in the office, so it's a "medium" traffic area? It use to get a lot more poeple in there, but not so much anymore.

My temps are good. Usually. About 92 on the hot, and 85 or so on the cool. (Although, the past few days, i've noticed the hot spiking up pretty high... we've been looking into a thermostat or something else to control it a bit more, we just havent' decided on exactly what we're going to do yet...)

Humidity is an issue. See my post http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=58238.

We used to have plastic log-looking hides for her... and she loved them. Then she got sick, we read a lot more about the husbandry and all other aspects, and put two plastic bowls in there that were more suitable for her size.. but now she barely goes in either of them. I don't know if it's because she liked the other ones better?? or becuase she can't get inside..

Right now, we have to handle her everyday - atleast once. She is getting meds from 1-3xs a day that we are giving to her orally..


We have the digital thermometer w/probe from acurite (You can see it all tipped over in the picture) to tell us the accurate temps and humidity.


As far as the eating goes, I really think it has to do more with whatever is wrong with her, more so that where/how she is being kept. She ate GREAT before she got sick. The vet thinks it was an ear infection, I thought it was an RI... but it's been almost 2 months.. she IS doing much better. Her muscles are stronger, she seems a bit feistier... but it seems to be taking forever. I don't know how long to wait before we call the vet again - for the 3rd time. I guess I'm not TOO concerned with her eating, but the longer she goes, the concern builds up. She is just a baby, after all..

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As far as the eating goes, I really think it has to do more with whatever is wrong with her, more so that where/how she is being kept. She ate GREAT before she got sick.

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While her being sick has likely played a big part, know that overtime improper husbandry can cause stress which can lead to refusal.

Right now your priority is to get her to eat, so here is what I would suggest before thinking about force feeding or assist feeding.

Get a 15 quarts tub

Get new hides: Your hides are still too big; this will give you an idea of how hides should be http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...highlight=hide

I usually use the following if this helps

From hatchling up to about 200/250 grams I use 6 inches diameter plastic flowerpot saucers.
From 200/250 grams to 400/450 grams I use plastic bowls
From 400/450 grams up to 900/950 I use large creature cubbyhole
From 900/950 grams to 1500/1550 grams I use x-large creature cubbyhole
And for 1500/1550 grams and over I use small kitty litter pans.

Once you move her let her settle for a week to 10 days with no handling if possible.

Note: Is she in her water dish on the pic? If so check for mites, she could also use it as an hide because her hides don't make her feel secure enough.

All I have is a little bowl-type kitchen scale. Honeslty, I don't know if it shows grams.. She certainly doens' look like she's lost any weight, and she just got done (thank the goddess!) with a shed.

With all due respect about the hides, the ones we had in there before, one was very snug, the other was bigger than the bowls we have now, and she loved it. These ones are smaller, and I get all excited on the rare occasion that she gets in them. Maybe she thinks they're boring..lol..? Maybe plastic cups would be better now??

Yes she was in her waterdish. That was the only time she's been in there, as far as i know. That's why I took the picture, because I'd never seen her there before. I'm always looking at her water and on her belly for mites - and so far, so good.

There is also this thought....

As I mentioned, we are giving her oral meds 1-3 times a day, every day. Every time we open the tank up, it messes with her temps and humidity. We're in and out of there all the time - so along with stressing her out:confused:, we mess with all the inside factors of her enclosure.

I feel pretty overwhelmed right now......:(

How much longer do you have to give it meds? Have you seen any symtoms lately similar as what prompted you to take it to the vet in the first place? In my experiance (15 years of snake keeping) your animal needs to be left alone for at least a week. Cover its enclosure with a black sheet and leave it be for a while. Provide ample water for its little vacation from you (maybe a larger dish even). Than after 7-10 days offer a smaller than normal meal. If it doesnt eat repeat cycle as ness. I convert all my animals to frozen and the balls can and often do go for quite some time without eating. This was hard for me to get used to as Ive kept more burms than balls and they would eat like goldfish (anything and everything). These animals more than likely eat much less in the wild than they do in captivity and have survived for millenia. Make sure your temps are right and then give the little girl a vaca.


just my 2Cents

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Originally Posted by JuliaGoolia

Assist feeding? Okay... I guess I'm new to that terminology...

What is that?

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Julia,
This is a write-up I did in another thread a few weeks ago concerning Assist feeding. I hope it helps.

Rick,
At this stage with your hatchlings, I would try assist feeding (NOT force feeding). By this I mean, take a P/K or F/T mouse hopper, and stick the head of the prey into the mouth of the baby ball python. Allow the nose of the nose to just touch the back of the mouth, and keep the snake's 2 jaws in contact with the mouse. Then GENTLY tug the mouse in an outward direction (as if taking it out of the snakes mouth). This will cause the backward curved teeth of the snake to "latch" the mouse, making it less easy for the snake to release the meal. Set the snake back in to it's enclosure, and leave it alone for an hour. Go back and check on the snake, and my bet is the mouse will be gone. This has had great success for me over the last few years. I think some snakes just need to get the food in their mouth, and their feeding response kicks in.

Note: I had a pinstripe female that I had to do this too this year. After assist feeding her three times, she still would not eat n her own. However, the next 2 assist feedings, she would bite down and wrap around the prey as soon as I got her mouth open. After 5 assist feedings, she tears up the rat pups like she never had a problem.


With that said, I have also mentioned in other posts by people that have fasting snakes, that I had a 1600 gram female (I beleive she was wild caught, even though I bought her as a Long Term Captive) that fasted for 55 weeks and lost 700 grams. She finally started eating mice, and ate them for a year before switching to rats. After one year of eating, she went from 900 grams to 2300 grams. Good luck with your little guy, and I hope he gets back on the food for you.

open mouth, insert foot. I stand corrected.:oops::bow:

(seems a little off-topic for the thread, now, though...)

We went out to Menards and bought a few different sizes of pot saucers.. Made sure they were the opaque ones and not clear..

We cut out a door on each, and honestly, when we put them in the tank, I wasn't so sure if she would fit in..height-wise.

But our little girl has been in there from about 20 minutes after we put them in there yesterday to right now, almost noon.

Here she is, in all her glory.. well, what you can see of her, anyway..:):D

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...s/PC251757.jpg

Heres a good video tutorial on how to assist feed not force feed. Hope this helps...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=WaL_eoQa16s

Just wanted to show you and others...not my video. thumps up for the user..:gj:

I have a snake at my work that was on meds and wouldn't eat. I waited til all meds were admin, plus one week to make sure they were through the system. She was healthy but hadn't eaten.

Our breeder recommended placing her in a small deli cup with a pinky or mouse hopper, so the mouse had to touch or wiggle on the snake. He said the snake will get sick of the touching and eventually eat.

Just an idea that might be less stressful than forcing or assisted.
But they really won't eat while meds are in their systems.

good luck

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How much longer do you have to give it meds?

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Until it's all gone.. but we've gone back once already to get a refill on one, and got an additional one. I'm not real sure how much longer that's going to be..

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Have you seen any symtoms lately similar as what prompted you to take it to the vet in the first place?

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Yes and no. She is MUCH better that what she was before. Before, i was wigging out, thinking it was IBD. The vet thought it was an inner ear infection, caused by her temps getting to low at night.. the reason she thought that, was because our girl is always turning to the right. (She doesn't have a lot of muscular control in the first 2-3 inches of her neck..When we took her to the vet, it was pretty much her whole body.) She has a lot more control now, and is a LOT harder to hold on to when we give her her meds.. she's got enough control to get inside her little hole for her hide now, so that's good!:)

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In my experiance (15 years of snake keeping) your animal needs to be left alone for at least a week.

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There is a delema... with the meds we're giving her, and the humidity issue I seem to be having, It seems we are are constant bother to her. What do I do? Not give her meds? We just made the humidifier in the DIY section, and although it's only been hooked up for about an hour, I'm hoping to see a change in there so we don't have to mess with moss or anything else as much. We keep doing this, and changing that to get her inclosure correct, and then holding her everyday, pissing her off giving her the meds, (which, btw, she HATES the baytril...!!) In trying to help her, we're only making things worse, it seems.

I think I may go looking for a specialized cage. anyone know of any other good ones other than at reptile basics?

Just put her in a tub.. It will make things easier on both you and her. You: keeping temps and humidity where they are supposed to be. Her: stress level decreases drastically because of the enclosed space, not to mention stable temps and humidity.

You can get nice, transparent tubs at Target. They are the ClearView type. For snakes up to about 800g, they can stay in the 15qt tubs and then get moved to the 32qt tubs. You want a tub that is 6-6.5" tall, no higher or you're wasting all of that space trying to heat it. If heat only has to rise 6", the ambient temps won't suffer.

Just try it, I promise she'll be a happier, less-stressed snake. And don't worry about feeding, she likely won't feel like eating until all of the meds are done. Her beneficial bacteria has to rebuild itself, and if you don't wait for it to do that, she may regurgitate. Wait a week after she's done with the meds and feed. She'll be just fine.

You might also want to go back to your vet and have a culture done. If the meds haven't worked in this long, then chances are they will never work. A week is all I give for the snake to respond to medications, and if they don't, then they get a culture and different medications.

My animals are in plastic tubs with holes drilled in the sides heated by heat tape on a thermostat. Also the tubs are in a buffet style piece I built that closes so they see nothing no movement even if we are in the room. These animals really arent the best display animals. They probably do feel more secure in a tub and it is much easier to maintain there correct climate in this manner. As far as the meds go Im always suspicious of vets (they have bills to pay too ya know). Give it the meds as long as you feel its ness but understand that it will more than likely not eat until its had ample time to get over this traumatic expeirence your putting it through. Im not sure if you have any exp with any other types of critters but I have a bit of a zoo here and in the past have lost exp salwater fish, snakes, and lizards it happens it sucks but remember this is a snake at the end of the day it will never be emotionaly attatched to you just like a fish. So ya it sucks to loose it esp if we are at fault. I cried when I put my dog to sleep , I get a new snake when I loose one.