Lock them up..

..and throw away the key! :taz:

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s.../thelockup.jpg

You have had him for 90 days??:O

I knew the guy that he came from. He had him for.. about, 8 years.

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

I knew the guy that he came from. He had him for.. about, 8 years.

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I know Adam and Ralph.... 90 days is 90 days!

Not quarantining because you know whom you purchase the snake from is like playing with fire and sooner or later you will get burn.

I don’t care whom I get a snake from; the quarantine will be the same whether it is from Joe Schmoe, 8 Ball, RDR or Nerd.

Breeding in a hurry is not worth jeopardizing my collection but that’s me.

I hope everything turns out ok for you.

I gave him 30 days here. He tested clean for internal parasites, and there are definately no externals showing up. I don't know of anything that would have kept still for this long in his former home, that would suddenly cause a catastrophe now if I do not wait a few more weeks. If he were small and still growing, or thin, or too overfat, those would have been issues to me, to not breed him.
My husband saw him and looked him over well over 60 days ago at their place, and he was healthy then.. honestly, not to be sarcastic, but what reason in this situation would there have been to wait longer? Are there specific diseases that take 60-90 days to surface in a new home? I would like to know.. I am really not trying to be a snot here, and I am just doing what I feel is safe and right.
Come on, it is not like I went to some stranger's place and grabbed a WC that was loaded with internals, and ticks, and tossed it in with my 100g male.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

I gave him 30 days here. He tested clean for internal parasites, and there are definately no externals showing up. I don't know of anything that would have kept still for this long in his former home, that would suddenly cause a catastrophe now if I do not wait a few more weeks. If he were small and still growing, or thin, or too overfat, those would have been issues to me, to not breed him.
My husband saw him and looked him over well over 60 days ago at their place, and he was healthy then.. honestly, not to be sarcastic, but what reason in this situation would there have been to wait longer? Are there specific diseases that take 60-90 days to surface in a new home? I would like to know.. I am really not trying to be a snot here, and I am just doing what I feel is safe and right.
Come on, it is not like I went to some stranger's place and grabbed a WC that was loaded with internals, and ticks, and tossed it in with my 100g male.

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200g males, Hun:D

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

I gave him 30 days here. He tested clean for internal parasites, and there are definately no externals showing up. I don't know of anything that would have kept still for this long in his former home, that would suddenly cause a catastrophe now if I do not wait a few more weeks. If he were small and still growing, or thin, or too overfat, those would have been issues to me, to not breed him.
My husband saw him and looked him over well over 60 days ago at their place, and he was healthy then.. honestly, not to be sarcastic, but what reason in this situation would there have been to wait longer? Are there specific diseases that take 60-90 days to surface in a new home? I would like to know.. I am really not trying to be a snot here, and I am just doing what I feel is safe and right.
Come on, it is not like I went to some stranger's place and grabbed a WC that was loaded with internals, and ticks, and tossed it in with my 100g male.

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The issue is that as a breeder you are not taking the proper precautions with your collection and therefore are ruining your reputation as a high quality breeder before it ever starts. But in the end what you do with your collection is your choice...just understand when a buyer starts researching you about a potential purchase this will come up.

Who says that if you do not wait 60 days, your snakes will crumple up and die? I have a clean, healthy, adult male here that I observed and kept in quarantine for 30 days in my own home, with no negative effects observed. Someone could QT their snake for a few months without getting a proper fecel done on it, and it could have internals. But oh, they quarantined it and it is still alive, so it must be ok?
Again. What diseases would not have manifested themselves yet, but would have if I had waited another 4 weeks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

Who says that if you do not wait 60 days, your snakes will crumple up and die? I have a clean, healthy, adult male here that I observed and kept in quarantine for 30 days in my own home, with no negative effects observed. Someone could QT their snake for a few months without getting a proper fecel done on it, and it could have internals. But oh, they quarantined it and it is still alive, so it must be ok?
Again. What diseases would not have manifested themselves yet, but would have if I had waited another 4 weeks.

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You have sick snakes in your collection (one or more have died) how do you know that the act of breeding won't set off some delayed infection in this animal that came out of QT too soon? Again what you do is your choice...but potential buyers will judge you by it.

What sick snakes? I don't have anything wrong in my collection. If you're referring to the snake that died in transit, we already have determined that shipping got too hot for it. I used the stated amount of heatpacks, as was stated on both their packages, and the website that sells them. I heated the box so that it'd be fine in temperatures between 60-75 degrees F and wrote this clearly on the box. The box had to have been exposed to grossly hot temps by fedex to have killed this snake. He left me healthy. And of course I have no recourse because of the waiver. They could have played kickball with the box, or put it in a microwave (actually, the snake appeared to have been put in one; if it were not so outlandish, I'd say that someone at fedex might have actually done that! And then they left him in 20-odd degree temps at the recipient's house for a few hours on the doorstep. Another thing that enraged me.
I find it hard to believe that at a large breeding facility, their breeding practices would halt and they would pull all of their ads and stop pairing snakes up if one died. Take IBD. It is a disease that can lie latent in boas for years..

I have decided to pull Gunther from his female and let him rest for a few more weeks. I will keep everyone posted; I am not one to hide anything and if anything crazy happens or does not, rest assured that you'll be the first to know.

So is it generally acceptable to breed 200 gram males, as Jas says it is?? I seriously want to know the reasoning behind breeding something this small.

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

So is it generally acceptable to breed 200 gram males, as Jas says it is?? I seriously want to know the reasoning behind breeding something this small.

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So you save a year. If a male will go for you, let him get it on. Youngstas got the stamina. And I don't know the story about your snake that died, but I've had 2 snakes cook at 113 for 24 hours once, as well as had a 93g snake shipped to me when it was 30 degrees outside, and the breeder didn't use a heatpack or styrofoam, and all 3 are fine. The snake that was shipped was freezing, but as soon as he warmed up (45 minutes until he even moved) he ate and has been one of my best feeders since.

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

So is it generally acceptable to breed 200 gram males, as Jas says it is?? I seriously want to know the reasoning behind breeding something this small.

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The Reason is They can! I do it because They can! Seriously even!

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

I have decided to pull Gunther from his female and let him rest for a few more weeks. I will keep everyone posted; I am not one to hide anything and if anything crazy happens or does not, rest assured that you'll be the first to know.

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I'd wait and (pull him) until he's done! You wouldnt want to rip out an hemipenes Pulling him out now! Just Sayin...

Jen, I don't know if you listen to Reptile Radio or Ralph's Podcasts, but they're paying attention to breeders like Jas who breed males younger. They definitely aren't all quite willing to try it, but I hear more concessions that if you pay attention to your animals and don't over do it, it can be done - Jas has proved it over and over.

I don't know if even Jas would recommend a first time breeder try it (he might, I can't speak for him) without the learned eye to know what to watch for.

I believe Brian at BHB (someone correct me if I'm wrong) on Reptile Radio said that trappers are collecting these females, with little baby males breeding them. So, they do it in the wild.

The cool thing about this hobby is that we're continually thinking outside the box and learning more and more about these wonderful animals. I know that I've become much more flexible in my thinking. Spend a little time talking to several different breeders, they all do things a little differently, but all successful for them. Take what makes most sense to you and for your situation, and modify what those breeders do if you want to.

I've got my hands on my animals almost daily, or at least my eyes. I know what makes each one tick. I know who likes it warmer and who prefers it cooler. I know who will be more forgiving to a change in enclosure and who won't. I know which ones would be more tolerant to me trying something new.

I wouldnt pull the snake just because some people on here dont think you didnt quarantine long enough... If the snake tested fine and acts fine its prolly fine... Ive heard from breeders that its unsafe to breed a male that young but from the breeders stand point why wait? If you wait a yr someone else gets a yr jump on something new that you may have plans to work on and you miss out... I think its a lil sketchy that some breeders are willing to breed their males that young when theres a chance they could get sick and die but then theyre gonna turn around and tell you your doing something wrong breeding them under 90 days quarantine. Just my .02

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Originally Posted by JoshJP7

I wouldnt pull the snake just because some people on here dont think you didnt quarantine long enough... If the snake tested fine and acts fine its prolly fine... Ive heard from breeders that its unsafe to breed a male that young but from the breeders stand point why wait? If you wait a yr someone else gets a yr jump on something new that you may have plans to work on and you miss out... I think its a lil sketchy that some breeders are willing to breed their males that young when theres a chance they could get sick and die but then theyre gonna turn around and tell you your doing something wrong breeding them under 90 days quarantine. Just my .02

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LMAO!!:8:

Josh, what experience do you have breeding to make such a strong statement? Have you listened to the reptile radio shows lately? I'm certain you don't have the years of experience that Jas has. Jas, have you had a young male die on you?

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Josh, what experience do you have breeding to make such a strong statement? Have you listened to the reptile radio shows lately? I'm certain you don't have the years of experience that Jas has. Jas, have you had a young male die on you?

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Robin, I have lost one young male (200g) after breeding him 2 times to his mother!

He now lives in Georgia!!

BTW. I'm all about the MONEY! LMAO.... Please!!!!!

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Originally Posted by JASBALLS

Robin, I have lost one young male (200g) after breeding him 2 times to his mother!

He now lives in Georgia!!

BTW. I'm all about the MONEY! LMAO.... Please!!!!!

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He does? Oh yeahhhhh - that would be Murphy! :D

I know - it was practically highway robbery! :mad:

What was "such a strong statement?"... Speaking why I felt some breeders breed babies at a young age? Your right I have no experience in breeding and I have listened to reptile radio. Just because he hasnt had one die on him doesnt mean theres not a risk... Just like theirs a risk that if jen breeds her snake too soon without long enough quarantine she could get sick BPs... To me its just very hypocritical to say its OK to take the risk here... but its no OK to take it there... Its just my opinion and im sure to all you it means nothing so whats the big deal? Jen asked why breeders do it and I offered a very plausable statement why some breeders do it. I never stated that this is why Jas did it... just throwing the idea out there.

Jas you laugh and say "im all about the money" but what other reasons would make you want to take the risk? If your saying it has no effect on your business or whatever why not be on the safe side and wait a year to breed the males? I dont have a problem with you breeding them early and like you said if it works then it works... After reading many care sheets on BP breeding, they all seem to offer that males need to be atleast 1 yr old... So JAS is a pioneer for straying from the norm and coming up with new methods to breeding... but im the bad guy when I stray from the norm and offer advice to use larger tubs? I guess I just dont see the difference.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoshJP7

What was "such a strong statement?"... Speaking why I felt some breeders breed babies at a young age? Your right I have no experience in breeding and I have listened to reptile radio. Just because he hasnt had one die on him doesnt mean theres not a risk... Just like theirs a risk that if jen breeds her snake too soon without long enough quarantine she could get sick BPs... To me its just very hypocritical to say its OK to take the risk here... but its no OK to take it there... Its just my opinion and im sure to all you it means nothing so whats the big deal? Jen asked why breeders do it and I offered a very plausable statement why some breeders do it. I never stated that this is why Jas did it... just throwing the idea out there.

Jas you laugh and say "im all about the money" but what other reasons would make you want to take the risk? If your saying it has no effect on your business or whatever why not be on the safe side and wait a year to breed the males? I dont have a problem with you breeding them early and like you said if it works then it works... After reading many care sheets on BP breeding, they all seem to offer that males need to be atleast 1 yr old... So JAS is a pioneer for straying from the norm and coming up with new methods to breeding... but im the bad guy when I stray from the norm and offer advice to use larger tubs? I guess I just dont see the difference.

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Josh, no one has called you a "bad guy" in any disagreements with you. You however have lowered yourself to calling people who disagree with you ignorant - staff members no less, and in this thread, you've called John sketchy.

I haven't seen a post yet where anyone said you were a bad guy for using a larger tub. You just don't like being disagreed with, and you get all hot under the collar about it.

If you want to know the difference in the respect level between you and John? Experience and earned credibility.

As for John's motives being money driven as you suggest, what's his website address showing his available animals, because I can't find it. How many ads have you ever seen placed by John selling his animals? I personally have only seen a handful of ads from John in the past year.

John holds onto far more animals than he sells, and until you sit down and pick up the phone and call John and talk with him, don't presume to know his motives. :colbert:

Robin I clearly stated that I wasnt saying this is why Jas does it... I was just throwing out a very plausable explanation why it would be in the breeders benefit to breed males young. I didnt call John sketchy personally, I was making a general statement that its sketchy for someone to say its OK to take a risk here but not Ok to take one there...

John If i offended your in any way I appologize... It wasnt my intentions... As Robin said I dont know your motives for doing so and would like clarification if you dont mind... If you dont want to share them thats cool to.


As far as me being the "bad guy"... you dont come right out and say it but its sure beaten around the bush. More clarification... ignorance simply means uneducated... In the other post people agreed that they didnt have the experience with larger tubs so they pretty much openly agreed to being ignorant in that area... Its not a slap in the face... Im ignorant with keeping snakes in smaller tubs.

Glad you guys are listening to the show...I'll be honest here - What's wrong with making money on doing what you enjoy? I breed and have bred plenty of young males...IMO - There is no risk if you pay attention to what your doing...I'll even go out on a limb here and say - Get your nose out of the books and get in your snake room - Watch what's going on and learn...If you really believe people are waiting until males are 1 year - 18 months old to start breeding you are blind...Nothing personnel - Just reality...Like I always say - Do what works for you...
BT

I personally could care less if people use young breeders as a method to get ahead business wise... Its a great business move and helps make new morphs available sooner... I plan on doing the same in the near future... With that said there is a risk that a male could get sick due to his young age and lack of immune system just like jens snake could get her other snakes sick for not quarantine long enough... My issue is when someone says its OK to take the risk with the young males... but jens wrong for taking the risk with her new snake... Either way its not that big of a deal. Im sure everyones males will be healthy and so will jens breeder.

On the flip side, if any of Jen's snakes happen to get sick for any reason, it will pretty much kill her business before it even becomes one.

As long as all risks are are recognized. Good luck.

You lost me there - "My issue is when someone says its OK to take the risk with the young males" but you said - "I plan on doing the same in the near future"...Risk of getting sick due to his young age and lack of immune system? That's a new for me...LOL...Well - I guess you have an issue with me then because I said and I'll say it again - There is nothing wrong with breeding young males if you know what your doing...Just curious - How many clutches have you produced? How many young males have you bred? Sorry Jen for hi jacking your thread -
BT

May I be the first to say good luck with everything, and I hope you get some wicked hatchings. Congrats Jen, can't wait to see the outcome! :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoshJP7

More clarification... ignorance simply means uneducated... In the other post people agreed that they didnt have the experience with larger tubs so they pretty much openly agreed to being ignorant in that area... Its not a slap in the face... Im ignorant with keeping snakes in smaller tubs.

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Lets please try and keep this thread on context. If you wish to post further clarification as to your reasonings behind a post please do so in the thread that it applies to. :gj:

I'd like to say that I can completely see Josh's point in this thread. Jen gets jumped on (apparently) for doing a 30day QT instead of 90. Something that most agree can be a risky venture. While at the same time in the same thread, it is recommended to breed 200g males...also something that is generally understood to carry certain risks. It does come across as less than consistent, at the very least.

If someone wants to do a short QT...that's their choice...it's just best if they know what risks they are taking.

If someone wants to breed young/small males...that is their choice too....again, just be sure that you know the risks.

The problem I have making this post is that Josh makes it damned hard to agree with him because he acts like such a spoiled brat who can't stand having anyone not see things his way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JLC

I'd like to say that I can completely see Josh's point in this thread. Jen gets jumped on (apparently) for doing a 30day QT instead of 90. Something that most agree can be a risky venture. While at the same time in the same thread, it is recommended to breed 200g males...also something that is generally understood to carry certain risks. It does come across as less than consistent, at the very least.

If someone wants to do a short QT...that's their choice...it's just best if they know what risks they are taking.

If someone wants to breed young/small males...that is their choice too....again, just be sure that you know the risks.

The problem I have making this post is that Josh makes it damned hard to agree with him because he acts like such a spoiled brat who can't stand having anyone not see things his way.

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I wouldn't say it was ever recommended to breed 200g females, merely stated that it's done. I'm no breeder, but I feel as though if you have a healthy, sexually mature snake and you're responsible about it you shouldn't have a problem. Some breeders will take well calculated risks, while they consider other risks unacceptable.

"The problem I have making this post is that Josh makes it damned hard to agree with him because he acts like such a spoiled brat who can't stand having anyone not see things his way."

I guess I wont take that as a personal attack?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoshJP7

"The problem I have making this post is that Josh makes it damned hard to agree with him because he acts like such a spoiled brat who can't stand having anyone not see things his way."

I guess I wont take that as a personal attack?

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'Tis merely an observation of your recent behavior. Not a judgement of your character.

Josh, you have yet to back up your arguements with proof or any significant information as to why you feel this way...

And coming on so strongly with no background tends to leave people a little less willing to work with you.

And Im sure if i expressed my observations of your behavior Id be banned... good way to lead by example

What information do I need to back me up? Im pretty sure I just got all the support I needed... and a slap in the face all at once.

First would be to back your statements up with personal experience, maybe?

Would lead more people to take your comments more credibly.



Personally, I just want to know why you think the way you do!

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Originally Posted by JoshJP7

And Im sure if i expressed my observations of your behavior Id be banned... good way to lead by example
.

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You're entitled to your opinion of my leadership. Personally, I'll take the overall consensus of the entire community as to whether or not I lead well enough. I'll never be able to please everybody.

A true leader doesnt throw in a cheap shot to one of its own community members especially when theyre supposed to be the one setting examples.

You pleased only yourself by making that comment.

Suck it up homie. I'm surprised you haven't been blasted yet, with the way you come on here with your 10 months of experience or whatever and whine and argue with experienced breeders and keepers, not to mention mods and Admins. And calling mods ignorant...? If you are going to give less than recognized proper advice, expect to be challenged. Especially when you don't have any experience to back up your experiments. Not saying that they don't work for you, I'm just saying what everyone else has been, that when a new owner comes on with problems or questions, they should get answers that will help them and their snake, not some JP experimental type schmit. So suck it up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoshJP7

A true leader doesnt throw in a cheap shot to one of its own community members especially when theyre supposed to be the one setting examples.

You pleased only yourself by making that comment.

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And a mature person does not throw this

Quote:

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what about your backround gives you the right to say "ideal"... you have a degree in zoology or done personal studies that have been posted in a magazine or something? Im going to guess the answer is no just like you not trying to house them in anything other than 12qt. I always thought ideal snake requirements were 2 snug hides... temps between 78-83 cool and 88-95 warm... humidity above 50%... I didnt know there was an "ideal" size.. i stick to my previous statement... your ignorant.

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Which to me is an intelligent way to call people stupid.

Let's see anyone as ever questioned your education or told you were ignorant since you have been here :confused:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoshJP7

A true leader doesnt throw in a cheap shot to one of its own community members especially when theyre supposed to be the one setting examples.

You pleased only yourself by making that comment.

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Josh, ENOUGH! Back it down, hush it up and know you've overstepped yourself with this community and specifically with one of it's most valued members! Judy is a VERY solid Admin of this site and does NOT lose her patience easily. You've pushed publically AND privately and it ends.....right here, right now.

I've not been involved in this thread so I can and will moderate it as I see fit and that can and will involve you being censured for continually antagonizing and disrespecting staff! I hope I'm really clear here Josh. The next step is yours, I'd suggest you consider it most carefully. No one has asked for your attitude and I for one will not see it muck up this thread or any other.

I guess that this whole thing stems from reading somewhere, that someone had quarantined a snake at another location, brought it home, and thereafter started breeding it. Do I remember the precise place I read this? No, but it is one of those things that you read, that was posted by a breeder that you trusted, and remembered later. Personally, I (actually my husband, but aren't we one unit ;) observed and handled the snake over 60 days before I bred him. That would have technically been a quarantine of 60 days; only, that half of them were spent in my home by the snake, and half were at his former home. I felt that, in conjunction with him being parasite-free, this would be a safe indication that he was not bringing anything in that could harm my snakes.
Did I really take into account that it might stress him out and make something crop up? Not that much. I guess that, being the admitted beginner that I am, this is just something I learned with experience. I won't do this again.. I have seperated him for his own sake, to let him acclimate more, I guess. Do I think that he holds anything offensive that could harm my colony? No, based on tests and the quarantine stated. Do I want to be one that rushes males into breeding for the sake of saving some time? After thinking more and seeing the rather strong reaction here, Enn-eee-ooo-NO. :) So all I can do now is wait things out..
The whole issue about breeding young males that are around, say, 200g. That seems risky to me. Why? I am not going to let myself off the hook and just blindly say it seems wrong; I will explain the reasoning behind my thoughts. I think that any animal needs a chance to grow on a little at least, and spend calories and energies on itself, making it into a strong and healthy animal before it is just resigned to breeding purposes.
I am going to start a new thread, though. I think it'd make for a lively discussion :)

I was thinking though, for future reference. Let's say that it is wrong to observe a snake for quarantine purposes, in another location, for 30 days, and then just do 30 days in your home instead of 60 more. Once the snake was moved out of your quarantine room, to your community rack, wouldn't it then be fair to say that you needed another extra 60 days of quarantining? Being in a new location in the same house does not seem to be that different from bringing a snake from one home to another. I am honestly not trying to be a smart-butt here.. I just want to know.

Wow Josh, you duh yerself a hole there buddy.. *snort*

Gin, in my personal experience, I know that sometimes when animals are moved from a place where they are comfortable and not showing signs of disease, to an unfamiliar place with different bacteria/viruses/etc, the stress of that move can cause the immune system to react to all of that, thus triggering an onset of illness.

It happens in rats ALL of the time. I quarantine them for 30+ days at my vet's office, get them tested for internal parasites, let them get the bugs out of their system, but even then, sometimes just the car ride home can trigger an immune response, and they start having respiratory symptoms(labored breathing, porphy nose and eyes, gasping, full-blown pneumonia).

So, even if a snake or other animal looks healthy and has been seemingly healthy for the last 60 days, it doesn't mean the snake doesn't have internal parasites that haven't developed into a full-on infection, or a respiratory infection that is just in the beginning stages, ya know?

Just my 14 cents and some :)

So in theory, all of my animals are in quarantine right now. I can definately agree with that. I read in the rescue-QT post that, if a new animal is brought in, and another animal has been in QT for, say 15 days (or ten years).. they all go back to square one.
So my solution to the debacle I have created? All of my snakes are considered to be in quarantine. I was not planning on selling anything anytime in the near future, so this is fine with me.
I might dig myself into deep rocky holes. But I can dig out just the same. It is not something that I haven't had practice in before!

The way I look at it Jen is if someone else is doing the quarantine, then for me it's not quarantine because I have no control over their practises. Unless I was incredibly confident in this other person, I'd still QT when they hit my home.

Example, you know I'm boarding Lynn's young boa for her right? Now Morgaine is perfectly healthy by all accounts, she's being cared for properly and as carefully as I know how to. Would I still encourage Lynn to quarantine Morgaine when she takes her home just to be on the safe side....you bet I will. :)

I look at it as a lesson learned. Everyone is in their permanent tubs now and I will watch everything for 90 days before making any changes.
I don't see a problem with the snakes that were bred, though. I know of cases where gravid females were shipped to people. I am pretty confident that the 2 girls which were bred to my Spider have taken already.. so now begins a waiting game. But that is what BP breeding is all about; waiting :)