how safe is LIVE

over here in the uk f/t is the norm and i know alot of you over inthe states feed live but i was just wondering how safe it is i have fed f/k but (touch wood) never needed to untill now to feed live

i have a spider bp and to start she struck fed great, then she went of her food for about 6 weeks and i finaly got her to eat by assisting now she wont eat unless i assist her but it is geting closer to the time when i am thnking of breeding her and i do not want to breed her if i have to assist feed. the only time she has ever refused is that six weeks i spoke of and the last 4 weeks when i just let her starve to see if hunger would get her going agin but i had to assit her again the other day. i am trying to get a hold of multimammate mice to see if that will work

i am just wondering how safe live woud be and if you have any other ideas on how to get her goping it woudl b much apreciated


thanks Alan

A lot of people do it with no problems....me being one. Just don't leave the food in for long periods of time.

Well you are right this is a much debated topic, some will say that it is safe and others say that it is not. Personally i believe it is safe, provided that it is done properly, i started with feeding live and then switched to f/t. Now i am going back to live, since i get a really good feeding response with live prey. I place the container of live rats in the snake room on top of the rack and it takes minutes before i see alot of comotion in the tubs and tounge flicking. I wait about half an hour to scent the room as they say. By then they are all in feed mode. So i drop them in, usually takes no more than 20 sec to hear the thump and the scream.
When i was feeding f/t they would act interested but never strike no matter what lil dance i did, so i would just leave it in the tub on a lil dish and usually they would eat. Sometimes they would not and that rat then had to get tossed out, so i was not a big fan of that. The only thing i would worry with a problem feeder is that a mouse or a rat can cause harm to the snake. On another note alot of snakes go off feed during this time of year, since it is breeding season.

When done by someone responsible it can be done safely.

I've had no issues with feeding well fed, well hydrated, appropriately sized live prey. The largest rat I feed is 40-60 grams.

I still feed my BP mice, but they're live. I don't think she'd respond nearly as well with something that wasn't moving. When I feed her, I hold the mouse by the tail in tongs, then lower it into the box with her. It usually takes her less than two seconds to see and grab it (except when the mouse is really dark, then it takes a little while longer). Of course, she's the only one I feed like this, so the extra time, to me, is worth it.

Why do you use tongs for live? I just drop them in and the snakes do just fine.

I just hold mine by the tail. Do you have to use tongs?

Elvyra, live? Why do you guys restrain the rats or mice if feeding live at all?

Personally, I restrain the mouse for peace of mind and because of a past bad experience seen with feeding loose live at the zoo. It makes me feel more comfortable to have control over the mouse so it can't hurt her.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Elvyra, live? Why do you guys restrain the rats or mice if feeding live at all?

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I hold it so it doesn't touch the substrate, I'm paranoid about her eating some of it. Also, I don't want to risk it biting her. Is it bad to do? It only take a couple seconds.

I've not had to feed live yet and I would only switch if I ran into a feeding issue. f/t is working very well for my girl and boy.

Argentra, restraining it has the mouse already fighting before it's even been hit by your snake - which I would think would be far more dangerous for your snake. When I drop live prey in the enclosure, it's clueless of impending danger. I'm feeding ball pythons from 200 grams all the way up to 3000 grams. They're all very efficient and swift hunters. The smallest ball I've ever had was 70 grams, eating live hoppers - no problems.

Elvyra, place newpaper down on top of the substrate. And even then, a small piece of aspen isn't going to hurt your snake - they ingest leaves and twigs in the wild, and their stomach acids are designed to digest fur, hair and bones - a little substrate won't be an issue.

Oh and Elvyra - holding with your hand is begging for a food response strike that may miss it's target and get your hand instead.

I use cypress, is it still ok?

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Originally Posted by Noek

I've not had to feed live yet and I would only switch if I ran into a feeding issue. f/t is working very well for my girl and boy.

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That's awesome! Each keeper should feed what works best for them!

Elvyra, just lay down some newspaper over the cypress on feeding day - it should be fine.

ok, tomorrow, i'll try just putting it in the cage, and see how that goes

so do you think i should try live or try something b4 i have tried just leaveing it in but that dosnt work at all

and ive done the litte rat dance to :taz: :rofl:

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Elvyra, just lay down some newspaper over the cypress on feeding day - it should be fine.

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I had the same concerns when I used aspen.This is exactly what I did with success.

[QUOTE=

i am just wondering how safe live woud be and if you have any other ideas on how to get her goping it woudl b much apreciated


thanks Alan[/QUOTE]

Unless your bp is just a baby the struggle with a mouse should be over in a few seconds

Yeah i have to agree to Rabernet if they can destroy bones and fur i dont even worry about substrate!

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Originally Posted by Snakes_in_a_shed

i have a spider bp and to start she struck fed great, then she went of her food for about 6 weeks and i finaly got her to eat by assisting now she wont eat unless i assist her but it is geting closer to the time when i am thnking of breeding her and i do not want to breed her if i have to assist feed. the only time she has ever refused is that six weeks i spoke of and the last 4 weeks when i just let her starve to see if hunger would get her going agin but i had to assit her again the other day. i am trying to get a hold of multimammate mice to see if that will work

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You are assist feeding an adult female snake???? Perhaps I misunderstood your post.

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Originally Posted by Elvyra's Keeper

I just hold mine by the tail. Do you have to use tongs?

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Holding live prey in your hand in front of a snake in feeding mode is going to get you bit. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow but it will get you bit.

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Originally Posted by Argentra

Personally, I restrain the mouse for peace of mind and because of a past bad experience seen with feeding loose live at the zoo. It makes me feel more comfortable to have control over the mouse so it can't hurt her.

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Like Robin explained and I'll second that, restraining living prey is in my opinion presenting a more frantic, hyped up and aggressive prey to your snake. When you restrain a living rodent, it freaks out. The last thing a live feeder wants for their snake is a freaked out live prey item. Unless you've got that mouse's jaws wired shut you aren't really doing anything other than scaring the mouse and making it more likely to bite, not less.

A healthy snake with it's natural instinct to take down live prey, presented with an appropriate prey size in a proper live feeding situation will deal with it's prey as it was designed to do so. That being extremely quickly, extremely efficiently and in a manner that presents little risk to the snake.

Nature didn't design these snakes to be inefficient predators believe me. I feed live and I watch snake after snake hit the rats I raise for them, usually before I can even slide the tub back in or replace the lid...it's that fast and it's over that quickly. I rarely if ever hear a rat make even a squeek before the amazing act of constriction has done it's job.

It's how they eat in the wild isn't it? I don't really understand restraining a live mouse.

Like Robin said, restraining the rodent will just antagonize the rodent further and when the snake does strike, it will be much more likely to put a fight and injure your snake. A rodent that is gently placed in the snake's enclosure will just begin to explore and usually never knows what hits them.

Holding the rodent by the tail with your hand is just asking to be bitten by either the rodent or the snake. Classic newb move in my opinion.

Feeding BP's takes patience and correct husbandry. If they aren't in place problems begin.;)

the only reason, i hold it by the tail and lower it in, especially with larg rats for the big boas, is to make sure that the head is hit, so they cannot bite the snake. ive had to do the whole hanger in the mouth to prevent some nasty nasty bites.

There are large-scale breeders that do not handle the rodents by hand, they use long tongs. I assume this is to avoid getting their scent on the rodent and to avoid accidental strikes from a hungry snake. I suppose if you use tongs the snake will not be able to strike the rodent that is walking away either (hense a rat getting struck from the wrong end).

One of the large breeders, off the top of my head, is Colette and Dan Sutherland of The Snake Keeper (ballpython.com). The rodents are kept under control with the tongs and they are much more calm then you would expect. I would even say that a rat picked up by the tongs is generally less spastic than a rat picked up and dangled by the tail.

I am not saying using tongs is better than using your hand. I am not saying live is better than prekilled (or visa versa).

I personally do not use tongs because I weigh each food item prior to feeding it to my snakes so I need to handle each rat twice and I am more adept as grasping with my hand than with tongs. :P

Everyone does things the way they do things and as long as it works and the snake eats safely, that's really all that matters..

Now.. I do think Coke is better than Pepsi, I like Chevy over Ford, I think the Red Sox rock the Yankees, I choose Snoopy over Bush, and if I must lift the damn toilet seat, my wife can do her part and put it down herself! :banana: (My point, in the end, is it is all just a matter of opinion)

Rick

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Originally Posted by SiscoReptiles

Now.. I do think Coke is better than Pepsi, I like Chevy over Ford, I think the Red Sox rock the Yankees, I choose Snoopy over Bush, and if I must lift the damn toilet seat, my wife can do her part and put it down herself! :banana: (My point, in the end, is it is all just a matter of opinion)

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I agree 100% ... with all of it! :bow:

-adam

hahahaha

she ate live

Totally up to you Pat but would I get within strike range of a big boa with a prey item in my hand....not in this lifetime. LOL

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Totally up to you Pat but would I get within strike range of a big boa with a prey item in my hand....not in this lifetime. LOL

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oh no dude, tongage for the big ones

Well I feed live. Ive had a few little bites on some of my bigger girls. Nothing to bad so far. If done right live is safe. My balls all ive ever fed was live. The corns would take anything. I only leave my mice/rats in the tub for 5 or 10 min. I also dont leave the room either. I only have about 20 balls. Someone with a bigger collection it would be harder for them to watch every snake. Live has worked great for me I dont see myself switching over to F/T anytime soon.

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Originally Posted by ama1997

Someone with a bigger collection it would be harder for them to watch every snake.

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Not true.

I know plenty of people with WELL over 20 snakes and they feed live prey.

And they supervise ALL their feedings.

:)

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Originally Posted by jeffnme

Not true.

I know plenty of people with WELL over 20 snakes and they feed live prey.

And they supervise ALL their feedings.

:)

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I agree!!
I feed live, all get fed with in 2 hours and I watch everyone of them.. I have a few over 20 snakes..

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Originally Posted by JASBALLS

I agree!!
I feed live, all get fed with in 2 hours and I watch everyone of them.. I have a few over 20 snakes..

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According to you on Ralph Radio - about 480 over 20! :P

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Originally Posted by rabernet

According to you on Ralph Radio - about 480 over 20! :P

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It's down it bit from that after some sales and trades,Etc.. More like 420 now..

I feed live exclusively, with no problems. I do supervise until the rat is dead, in the event that the snake could get bitten. But this never happens :)

I feed Mojo live and have since I have owned him(about 8 months now) and have never ahad a problem. I recently moved him from mice to rats and he is taking them like a champ. I am still newish to the forums so by all means any vets wanna add or correct me but I would say it is up to the individual snake and how agreesive of a feeder they are to deem wether proper size would be or nto be dangerous. Also from what I have researched if your going to mvoe it to rats be careful as rats are more aggresive then mice and in such can attack your snake before it attacks the rat.

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Originally Posted by Tripppysmurf

I would say it is up to the individual snake and how agreesive of a feeder they are to deem wether proper size would be or nto be dangerous.

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Not true.

My smaller balls would try...to take a medium rat if I tossed it in...that doesn't mean they should.

They are reacting on instinct not judgement.

That is where the responsible owner comes into play...you should know what the correct size to feed your snake and always monitor your feedings.

:)

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Originally Posted by Tripppysmurf

Also from what I have researched if your going to mvoe it to rats be careful as rats are more aggresive then mice and in such can attack your snake before it attacks the rat.

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I don't know that's I'd agree with you on that. I breed my own feeder rats and I can't say that I've found them any more aggressive than a mouse. Actually back when I fed mice I was personally bitten more by the darn things trying to grab one to feed off than I've ever been by any of the rats here.

I think any prey will be aggressive if it goes in live when it's not in top condition....hungry, thirsty, restrained, etc. Feed an appropriately sized prey that is itself in good condition to a healthy snake well used to dealing with it's prey and take the time to learn the proper methods of live feeding. :)