My BP is not doing so great with live food...

I've been feeding him live hoppers since I got him. There was never I problem until last week.

For the first time, he grabbed the mouse by it's side instead of the face or neck, and with no suprise he was bit on the side of his neck. The mark isn't large at all, but when he was eating and his neck was all stretched out it looked a little nasty. I felt really bad even though there was no blood and he didn't seem bothered.
He was still in his shed cycle when I fed him last week (his eyes and skin had just cleared up again but he hadn't she yet).

Today I fed him again, hoping that was just a freak occurance. Unfortuanetly, he bit the side of the mouse again. Luckily, I was able to step in this time, so he didn't get bit. But I saw the mouse with it's mouth opened wide trying to attack.

I know the easy solution is to switch to frozen, but I am very very very busy at the moment and learning the process/thawing a mouse weekly will not be do-able yet. I will consider in the future if I can.

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to prevent this from happening again?

He seems to let the mouse struggle more now. The first time I got him the mouse was done in literally like 5 seconds. Since then he has slowly taken longer and longer to finish the job. :confused:

Another lesson learned. Don't feed live.

If you can't learn to thaw something I can offer you another solution, stun him. Put the prey item in a bag and give it a good wack on a hard surface. Then if you snake isn't to aggressive. Do the mousy dance.

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Originally Posted by scotty84

Another lesson learned. Don't feed live.

If you can't learn to thaw something I can offer you another solution, stun him. Put the prey item in a bag and give it a good wack on a hard surface. Then if you snake isn't to aggressive. Do the mousy dance.

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Feeding live can be done safely, I have been feeding both live and F/T to multiple snake each week and never had any issue feeding live whether it is mice or rats

Stunning not only is inhumane but also potentially dangerous to the snake if the rodent wakes-up. In other words, not a good idea.

I'm not trying to be a jerk..

Who decides what is and is not humane? Im just saying, if I was about to be eaten by a snake, I'd rather suffer a serious head-blow so I didn't realize what was about to happen. It's not like he told him to blow smoke in his face until he can't breathe and then start poking him with hot needles.

Other people will see differently.

He didn't say put the mouse in a sleeperhold, what I mean is: that mouse isn't "waking up" (if hit hard enough.)

By the way, I don't stun my rats/mice.. so I don't need to be jumped for that. I just don't jump other people for how they feed.

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Originally Posted by MikeC1212

Who decides what is and is not humane?

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If someone chose to feed P/K or F/T than it should be done by HUMANELY euthanizing the prey, not only by respect for the prey that sustain the life or their snake but also to avoid any issues (again a stunned prey regaining consciousness will become potentially more dangerous than a prey that has not been stunned)

Also this is what Stanford University consider the most human way to euthanize a rodent http://med.stanford.edu/compmed/word-pdf/oct_2003.pdf

lol, nevermind.

Yea i dunno if hitting the mouse/rat over the head is "inhumane".... either way its going to be killed by the snake right? ...if it wakes up its gonna have a concussion or whatever a rat/mouse gets after being blasted in the dome so i dont see it doing too much to a snake... either way OP i think your best bet is to get smaller prey... I dunno what your local pet shop has but see if they carry F/T or small mice... If your snake doesnt eat in like 3 weeks send me a PM and ill send you some F/T.

I feed f/t and it's very, very easy. The thaw doesn't take long and our snake gobbles them right up! Never a worry. Also, I have a lot of them cuz I over-ordered and given that you're in Norwalk I'd be willing to share.:) Petco f/t mice tend to be terrible - I don't know what's near you.

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Originally Posted by BigCeC43

I know the easy solution is to switch to frozen, but I am very very very busy at the moment and learning the process/thawing a mouse weekly will not be do-able yet. I will consider in the future if I can.

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I'm not sure how time consuming it is to take a frozen rodent out of the freezer...pop it into a ziplock bag and toss it into the fridge to thaw overnight...then the next day heat it up with a blow dryer or a dunk in hot tap water.

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Does anyone have any suggestions on how to prevent this from happening again?

He seems to let the mouse struggle more now. The first time I got him the mouse was done in literally like 5 seconds. Since then he has slowly taken longer and longer to finish the job. :confused:

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Do you pre-scent the room before offering the mouse? If not...try it. Instead of tossing the mouse in as soon as you bring it home...put it into a little ventilated escape-proof cage or box and set that near the snake's enclosure for 20-30 minutes.

This will "wake up" the snake and get it into hunt mode...and by the time you toss the mouse in there, the snake will be very ready to catch it.

Another method of pre-scenting would be to drop a pinch of used mouse bedding into the corner of your snake's enclosure...but again, do this several minutes before offering the mouse....make sure the snake is "salivating" (they don't really do that...but you get the picture!) before offering the mouse.

Hope that helps some.

i agree with mike c whatever stuning can be fatal i prefer to flick them in the nose they twitch and make the snake constrict quite frankly whats humane is not to own these creatures but we seem to get by that just fine mice are pests and as such have very high numbers so killing a few inhumanly to sustain a snake should not matter and to be quite honest the barn i used to work at used to hold contests to see who could catch more mild mice with flypaper they die eventually so what does it matter how they die

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Originally Posted by BigCeC43

...I know the easy solution is to switch to frozen, but I am very very very busy at the moment and learning the process/thawing a mouse weekly will not be do-able yet. ...

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Thawing a mouse is very easy and much safer for your snake. Not sure what you mean by learning the process.
For me it’s as simple as letting it thaw on a paper plate and leave it in the cage before I go to bed. I wake up in the morning and it’s eaten. Safely, humanely and easy. Much easier than watching over a live feeding in hopes you can stop the mouse before it eats your snake’s eye. Give it a try. Good luck
Hugs and Hissessss,
Maria

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Originally Posted by GA_Ball_Pythons

...
Stunning not only is inhumane but also potentially dangerous to the snake if the rodent wakes-up. In other words, not a good idea.

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and Illegal

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Originally Posted by scotty84

Another lesson learned. Don't feed live.

If you can't learn to thaw something I can offer you another solution, stun him. Put the prey item in a bag and give it a good wack on a hard surface. Then if you snake isn't to aggressive. Do the mousy dance.

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Are you even kidding me?

How are you going to dismiss something like that to "Don't feed live" as if that is the answer.

and you don't STUN a mouse or rat. How would you like someone to give you a good whack on a hard surface?

I mean really...it is a living creature that is going to feed your snake...the LEAST you could do is put is down humanely.

People who feel that feeding a mouse/rat live is just as bad as stunning it or whacking on a hard surface are wrong.

IMO.

there are many threads on this subject...do the research and you will find a ton of useful info.

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Originally Posted by GA_Ball_Pythons

Feeding live can be done safely, I have been feeding both live and F/T to multiple snake each week and never had any issue feeding live whether it is mice or rats

Stunning not only is inhumane but also potentially dangerous to the snake if the rodent wakes-up. In other words, not a good idea.

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:sweeet:

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Originally Posted by MikeC1212

He didn't say put the mouse in a sleeperhold, what I mean is: that mouse isn't "waking up" (if hit hard enough.)

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ahhh...IF it is hit hard enough!

IF not...you have a neurologically damaged ...crippled...animal.

Would you like to be crippled before you die from that whack to the head?

just sayin' some people...no..MOST people will not hit it hard enough the first time and will...have to either hit it again or feed it off crippled.

:hmm:

that is no way to treat ANY living creature.

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Originally Posted by SnakeBabe

Much easier than watching over a live feeding in hopes you can stop the mouse before it eats your snake’s eye. Give it a try.
Maria

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Eats the snakes eye??? Are you serious?

I have not seen one of my...balls...corns...or my RTB that will sit there and LET their prey EAT their eye out. C'mon!

Besides the fact that...if you are monitoring the feeding...the prey won't have time to eat anything.

I have had snakes for 10 years and I have NEVER had a prey bite my snakes...much less eat it's eyes out.

:rolleyes:

Thanks for all the responses,

JLC,
I have been "pre-scenting the room." Within minutes of me putting the mouse(in the box) above his cage he's out off his hide w/ tounge flickering. He does attack quick, it's just that he doesn't bit the face/neck like he used to, and he doesn't constrict hard enough anymore giving the prey a chance to bite back.


As for stunning... I honestly don't feel right wacking the prey against something hard. To me it seems like that would either kill it (if done hard enough) or just break it's bones. I don't really see a mouse getting a concusion from a blow to the entire body.

I guess I might try frozen, but I'm going to have to try live again also. It doesn't make sense that he is getting worse at the kill.:confused:

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Originally Posted by SnakeBabe

Much easier than watching over a live feeding in hopes you can stop the mouse before it eats your snake’s eye. Give it a try. Good luck
Hugs and Hissessss,
Maria

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Eat it's eye? A bit melodramatic?

Bottom line, feed what works for you and your snake. Feeding live is not as inherently dangerous as people try to make it seem.

When feeding live, you feed an appropriately sized prey item (when feeding rats, the largest one you need is a 4-5 week old weanling, even my 3000 + gram female gets one 40-50 gram weanling a week and is still putting on weight), you feed prey that is well fed and healthy, you pre-sent the area, you know your snakes.

I myself have fed over 3000 live prey items off to my collection. I've never had an injury of any kind. If I even had just one injury, the "danger" would be in less than 1% of my live feedings. In fact, it would be a risk of .000033 %. I've never even had an eye eaten in over 3000 live feedings. :)

I can't even begin to imagine how many live prey that Adam has fed off in 10+ years of feeding live to over 700 snakes a week. And he doesn't experience injuries either.

Anti-live feeders seem to always over-inflate the risk of feeding live, when in fact, the real risk is very small.

BP.net prides itself in not taking a stance one way or the other. If pre-killed or frozen/thawed works best for you and your animals, then that's great! If feedling live works best for many of the members here, then that's great as well! Neither way is better than the other. Just my :twocents:

>Thawing a mouse is very easy and much safer for your snake. >Not sure what you mean by learning the process.
>For me it’s as simple as letting it thaw on a paper plate and >leave it in the cage before I go to bed. I wake up in the morning >and it’s eaten. Safely, humanely and easy. Much easier than >watching over a live feeding in hopes you can stop the mouse >before it eats your snake’s eye. Give it a try. Good luck
>Hugs and Hissessss,
>Maria


Is there a danger of the snake eating a half frozen mouse ?

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Much easier than watching over a live feeding in hopes you can stop the mouse before it eats your snake’s eye.

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A bit too dramatic don't you think? :rolleyes:
What's next the picture of a snake severely injured after a irresponsible owner left a prey unattended in the enclosure without food or water for days?

Quote:

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Is there a danger of the snake eating a half frozen mouse?

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Yes, if not properly thawed it can lead to the death of the snake.

The bottom line when feeding is to know your options and feed responsibly whether it is live, F/T or P/K.

i think ya also have to consider ur snake a little i know for a fact that my ball python wont lose to a mouse and im willing to watch every time... less then 20 seconds in the container together and the mouse has stopped twiching... but iv watched a few adult kenyans inculding my own whos all better now :) and they dont bite as hard they dont constrict as fast or nearly as strong as a near baby ball... but i agree what ever works stunned is my choice esspecially since most are pinkies but a good flick in the head works for me ....

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Eat it's eye? A bit melodramatic?

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I don’t think so but I’m not going to take the risk with my pets.
I am sure you all have seen the photos. I have snakes here that were victims of live feedings. Missing nostrils, scars up and down their bodies but no eyes missing. I was just making a point. With the live method it is possible. Not mine.
Hugs and Hissessss,
Maria

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Originally Posted by SnakeBabe

I don’t think so but I’m not going to take the risk with my pets.
I am sure you all have seen the photos. I have snakes here that were victims of live feedings. Missing nostrils, scars up and down their bodies but no eyes missing. I was just making a point. With the live method it is possible. Not mine.
Hugs and Hissessss,
Maria

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Many of us have seen the pics used by people who strongly oppose to live feeding!

And we also know the story behind the one you have in mind and that is posted on your website.

Leaving a rat or a mouse for days in an enclosure with a snake with no food or water is not what I call responsible feeding. (this is the story behind that pic and some others)

A responsible owner that supervises feeding and feed an appropriate size prey CAN do feed live safely. Animals that are severly injured are the result of irresponsible owners.

The bottom line is to chose one or the other not because people are telling you to (their way being the best), but because you are informed, responsible and know your options.

Based on that people should feed what work and is convenient for them whether it is live, F/T or P/K. (On my part I feed all 3)

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Originally Posted by GA_Ball_Pythons

[SIZE="2"][FONT="Arial"] ...
A responsible owner that supervises feeding and feed an appropriate size prey CAN do feed live safely. Animals that are severly injured are the result of irresponsible owners....

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I never heard this argument. Are you saying that you have perfected a way to be 100% safe doing live feeding? Zero risk?
Hugs and Hissessss,
Maria

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I never heard this argument.

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You never heard that before? Well I guess you have not been here much than ;)

When done responsibly the risk is minimum close to 0, I never had any injury (minor or serious) and I know a few people here that will tell you the same thing ;)

Like I said horror stories, severe injuries (that you mentioned previously) are the result of irresponsible owners, those people are likely to have problem even if they feed F/T :rolleyes:

You said safe,

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Originally Posted by GA_Ball_Pythons

...
the risk is minimum close to 0, ...:

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well, that’s not 100 % safe, its almost safe and you chose to take that risk. I like the safer method of F/T.

If you have an issue with the over use of the photo on my site here is a wonderful success story.
http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z...be/boaadpt.jpg
This guy belonged to a person who insisted this boa ONLY eats live. During a typical feeding this 5 foot boa grabbed the rat on the side; rat turned and bit a huge hunk of its nose. They brought it to the vet, never paid the bill. I did and here we are about 4 years later with an almost healed nose on a boa that has eaten only F/T

Hugs and Hissessss,
Maria

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SnakeBabe

I don’t think so but I’m not going to take the risk with my pets.
I am sure you all have seen the photos. I have snakes here that were victims of live feedings. Missing nostrils, scars up and down their bodies but no eyes missing. I was just making a point. With the live method it is possible. Not mine.
Hugs and Hissessss,
Maria

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The that is YOUR choice but it is not bad or harmful to feed live if done responsibly.

Most of these 'victims of live feedings' were because

1. the prey was too big.

or

2. The snake was not fed by a responsible owner.

You have to monitor the feedings...every one of them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SnakeBabe

and Illegal

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Illegal? To stun/whack/whatever to a rodent? I'm calling the cops and lawyers because I'm going to sue every store that sells mouse traps. Those MONSTERS!!!

Give me a break.:weirdface

In several places it is illegal. It has been a while since I was asked this so let me contact my Rat owing friends and ask if they know which states.
Hugs and Hissessss,
Maria

i know what the cons to live feeding are but what are the pro's?

are there any?

other than not totally defrosting what are the cons to feeding frozen?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SnakeBabe

You said safe,
well, that’s not 100 % safe, its almost safe and you chose to take that risk. I like the safer method of F/T.

If you have an issue with the over use of the photo on my site here is a wonderful success story.
http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z...be/boaadpt.jpg
This guy belonged to a person who insisted this boa ONLY eats live. During a typical feeding this 5 foot boa grabbed the rat on the side; rat turned and bit a huge hunk of its nose. They brought it to the vet, never paid the bill. I did and here we are about 4 years later with an almost healed nose on a boa that has eaten only F/T

Hugs and Hissessss,
Maria

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Its a shame about your boa but I have a 6 foot JCP and his typical meal simply does not have what it takes mouth-wise to remove a significant amount of flesh. In fact, when I first got him, I over-estimated his prey size and he did get some big bites. But those were large rats and they never even managed to draw blood. They mangled the scales pretty good but were not able to penetrate. Now, two sheds later, the marks are completely gone. Since then, I've realized that he doesn't need such big meals and he gets either a small or medium rat. Those things simply don't have the biting power necessary to do more than a good scratch.

to the OP:

It is important to distinguish between a mark and a real injury. Minor bites can scratch the scales and pinch the skin underneath.

Also, a bit of neck stretching is fine. Its looks freaky and you can start to see the pink of the skin underneath the scales but its not damaging unless the prey size is extreme.

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Originally Posted by chatcher

i know what the cons to live feeding are but what are the pro's? are there any? other than not totally defrosting what are the cons to feeding frozen?

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They are pros and cons with both, my advice to anyone would be to experiment see what work and chose according to what work and is convenient for them.

Pros and cons will depends on the person I guess

For me F/T and I use to only feed F/T exclusively, has become time consuming when feeding multiple snakes and will only get worse as my collection keep growing.

Some preys will explode if thawed too fast.

Some snake will not take F/T

I feed live and raise my own feeders but I still have a few snake that I chose to keep on F/T (which has nothing to do with possible risks)

I had problems getting my BP to take frozen thawed at first, but had great luck with live. I was going to switch back to FT after establishing a good feeding pattern. But have since changed my mind.

Watching my BP Lucy take live mice and rats I realize that this is simply the way of the world. She is just a few months old, yet strikes and kills a live mouse with amazing skill. Snakes are killing machines. It's really their ONLY skill. I can understand all the reasons why people want to feed their snakes like they feed their children. But for Lucy it's live all the way!!!

In fact, as soon as my corn snake Mazie gets a little bigger I am going to switch her to live too.

I read one thread by a member here that feeds F/T but was able to obtain live only at one point. IIRC, she fed F/T because she was squeemish and so decided to let her snake do the job. Everything went OK but she noticed her BP was much more excited about taking his prey than usual.

I guess I'm kind of in "its the way its meant to be" camp. That being said, I feed my corn F/T because he just swallows his pinkies with no constriction - live or dead. With him, F/T just feels right so I do it despite the fact it grosses me out. But, with my two pythons, live definately feels right. Everytime I feed I feel a bit sorry for the prey and I fret a bit for my snakes, but that doesn't really make me want to switch.

ok i want 2 jump in again even buying f/t somewhere at some point in time u realize that the mouse or rat was killed don't u honestly humane inhumane u ppl argue over some of the stupidest things common sense should work in this situation rats need to be prekilled horror story comin' on a friend of my mom's fed his boa constrictor rats prekilled had it trained to hit the rat as soon as it hit the floor it was prekilled he would hit it with the handle of a hammer i don't know why he wouldn't use the metal side but one day he missed and the rat bit thru about a half- inch of wood that could be your snake ok not saying it will go for an eye but lip, nose, body, tail. u pick but plz stop fighting over something as senseless as prekilling if u do u don't deserve to own a snake because your defeating yourself

ps second or third person who replied to this u look like jidanbo on bleach now all u need is a couple of axes

did you just say something?

Maria, I respect and honor your committment to your feeding plan, as I would ask you to respect and honor the committment others have to doing it another way. Personally I feed live from rats I personally breed and raise in humane and healthy conditions specifically for the purpose of live prey animals. I have in the past also fed F/T and would do so again should it be required for a specific snakes needs.

We have 21 snakes here - some of them are rescues. None, not one, carries a scar from a rodent bite. They do however carry the scars of man's inhumanity to them. One has extensive dorsal scarring due likely to exposure and skin degloving from contact with a hot unprotected bulb inside her enclosure. Another carries the scars of a cat allowed to jump on and off her mesh lidded enclosure until one day it burst through and scratched her badly with it's claws. Another carries old wounds that were most likely incurred when she was hooked out of her burrow back in Africa.

Scars are ugly and no snake deserves them. In my experience however the scars my snakes carry are not from live feeding - they are from uncaring, ill informed humans. If one makes the choice to live feed it is or should be with the time, research and knowledge to do so safely. I will never say it's 100% safe - nothing can be 100% safe - not live feeding, not frozen/thawed not pre-killed. All anyone can do is know the snake, know the prey and know their own level of experience when it comes to any aspect of responsible husbandry, at least in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by serpents-prey

ok i want 2 jump in again even buying f/t somewhere at some point in time u realize that the mouse or rat was killed don't u honestly humane inhumane u ppl argue over some of the stupidest things common sense should work in this situation rats need to be prekilled horror story comin' on a friend of my mom's fed his boa constrictor rats prekilled had it trained to hit the rat as soon as it hit the floor it was prekilled he would hit it with the handle of a hammer i don't know why he wouldn't use the metal side but one day he missed and the rat bit thru about a half- inch of wood that could be your snake ok not saying it will go for an eye but lip, nose, body, tail. u pick but plz stop fighting over something as senseless as prekilling if u do u don't deserve to own a snake because your defeating yourself

ps second or third person who replied to this u look like jidanbo on bleach now all u need is a couple of axes

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That has to be THE longest sentence I've ever seen. I think I just lost IQ points.


:colbert:

sry midnight rant . . . they happen to me alot

ok i want to jump in again. Even buying f/t somewhere and at some point in time you do realize that the mouse or rat was killed don't you. honestly! humane, inhumane, you people argue over some of the stupidest things. A little common sense will go far in this situation. rats need to be prekilled (horror story comin' on there's no popcorn smily). a friend of my mom's fed his boa constrictor rats prekilled and had the snake trained to hit the rat as soon as it hit the floor. he prekilled with a hammer and would hit the rat with the handle of the hammer. we bieng my mom and i don't know why he wouldn't use the metal side but one day he missed and the rat bit thru about a half- inch of wood. that could be your snake ok. not saying it will go for an eye but lip, nose, body, tail. u pick but plz stop fighting over something as senseless as prekilling if u do u don't deserve to own a snake because your defeating yourself.

ps second person who replied to this u look like jidanbo on bleach now all u need is a couple of axes and where do you get lesson learned always feed prekilled that has to be the dumbest logic yet

:rolleye2: hope this makes a little more sense.