Starting up breeding

When I got two feeders for the ball pythons today, I asked the man to get the smallest small mice he could find. He went to the back, plopped two mice into the box and I paid and left. I was too excited about bringing home the pastel to look at what he had given me. They hadn't gotten their week supply of feeders yet so I was stuck with whatever they had given me. I got home, got the pastel all settled in and then went to deal with the feeders. One was probably just small enough for Sadis to eat, but the other I would guess to be almost a full grown mouse. Definatly too big for either of the ball pythons.

I asked my fiance what we should do with it and my fiance said we could return it, but that would require another 30 min drive there and a 30 min drive back all to return a mouse. I then suggested that since we now have 5 snakes, perhaps it would be a good time to start breeding our own feeders since just for the ball pythons it is costing us over $30 a month. So we both agreed to keep the mouse as a breeder. I believe it to be female, but I will double check. We are currently keeping it in a 10g tank with a water bottle and some dry cat food (didn't have time to rush out to the store to buy mouse food. Not to mention, Petsmart only carries crap food)

So now comes my questions.

One snake is on fuzzies (the king), two are on hoppers (the normal balls, though they are graduating up to small mice soon) and the other two are on small mice (the pastel and the snow corn).

In order to produce enough feeders for this bunch and have the correct size each week, how many breeder females and how many breeder males do we need?

We do not have a rack system for them but instead we have one ten gallon tank. We could get another tank as a grow out tank for feeders and a small tub as a vacation tub for tired females. We can always make a CO2 chamber and freeze any left over babies for use with the cornsnake. She eats anything that is put in front of her.

Any suggestions on temporary fixes until I can get good food and proper bedding (on newspaper right now).

A good rule of thumb is one mouse (or rat) for every snake. The breeding cycle is usually between 7-10 weeks (3 weeks gestation, 3 weeks weaning, 1-4 weeks rest). Fortunately mice do better in colonies than rats so you shouldn't have a problem keeping 4-5 mice in a 10 gallon tank. (FYI, although I do breed mice I primarily breed rats, so any mice breeders please feel free to correct any of my advice.)

For now I would suggest getting at least one more cage for the male. Males can and do breed with females shortly after they give birth which obviously isn't very good for the female, so you will want to remove the males before any females give birth to their litters. One male should be good enough for 4-5 females and will allow you to give the male a rest for a week or so between cycles.

Oh, one more thing... mice seem to get stressed easier than rats and will have a tendency to eat their young if they do get stressed. Try not to handle or disturb them too much during the breeding cycle, especially for the their first one or two litters.

I've heard that removing the male may make the females reject him when you return him to the tank.

So basically the set up would be the one tank with the females, male in to breed. The females have litters, the offspring grow and get seperated by sex at about 4 weeks, since they can start breeding as early as 5 weeks, correct?

I was told by some to just keep the male in and let the females have a few litters, then give them a few weeks rest, then put them back into the breeding cycle. If anyone has a breeding schedule for one male to about 4 females, I would love to take a look.

Mice don't do well on a cycle like rats do. They are much more consistent as harem breeders, and the stress of back-to-back pregnancies doesn't seem to take a toll on them. Even with harem breeding they're still only good for 6-8 litters before they need to be fed off.

I currently have 3 tubs set up (not in a rack) with 1.3 in 2 of them and 1.2 in the other. They are breeding VERY WELL and I'm getting babies consistently from all of the tubs. Mind you, this is while my 4 cats are "playing" with the mice (sitting on top of the tubs, swatting at them through the plastic, etc...) and me messing with them checking on the babies constantly, and I haven't had a single act of canibalism. They don't stress THAT easily, as long as something out of the ordinary doesn't happen.

As a matter of fact, one of my cats knocked the tub off of the top shelf of the shelving that I have them sitting on, and spilled pregnant mice/pinkies/fuzzies and bedding all over my living room floor. I put the adults in a holding tank (critter keeper) and the babies in a bowl from the kitchen, cleaned up the mess, put everyone back in, and all was well. Didn't lose a single baby, and the pregnant momma that fell 4+ feet a week ago threw me a litter of 11 this past monday.

As far as your current situation, how big are your BP's? Even my smallest rescue, an extremely thin 150g male, is eating an adult mouse weekly with no problems...

Sadis is our bigger of the two normals. (We don't have a weight on the Pastel, but he was eating a mouse when he was fed yesterday. I would guess it was not full grown but not too small either)

Sadis is currently on hoppers since she regurged a small mouse a few weeks back. She is around 110g at the moment. We plan on moving her up to small mice at her next feeding. Xefaud is around 95g and on hoppers. Since these are our first ball pythons we are unsure of when to move up in prey size. Our other snakes are colubrids and can easily handle larger prey since they are so stretchy. My corn snake is on small mice and is well over 100g but I have not weighed her recently.

I have a 60g hatchling from mid-August, who is eating small adult mice. Her siblings are on a medium/large medium adult mouse once per week, and they are about 155-160g.

So don't worry, they can take something bigger than a hopper, especially after they've had 3-4 meals.

Makes me wonder why your female regurgitated. Just upping the prey size from a hopper to a small mouse wouldn't do that unless there is an underlying problem such as stress/internal parasites, something like that.

We had been handling her before (to get a weight) before feeding her. And we had some issues with humidity that we later corrected. We fed her a hopper two weeks after the regurge and she was fine. We have a small mouse available to feed to her today so we are going to give it another shot.

Do you think I should up Xefaud to small mice as well? I'm making a trip to the store today to get a feeder for him so if he can go up a size I'll go ahead and get a larger prey item.

Oh and I just looked up sexing mice on Google and the space between the gap is very small on our mouse so I would put my money on it being female.

So at this time if we were to start breeding what would we need to get (other than Mazuri food and Aspen bedding)

Should we go ahead and purchase another 2 females and a male along with additional tanks for grow out, male vacation and female vacation? I'm worried about mice chewing out of tubs so would tanks be a better option? Oh and just a tid-bit...The mice would be at my fiance's house (as my grandmother said absolutely no breeding mice at her house) so we are pressed for space at least for a while.

I would, since hoppers really don't have alot to them. Small adult mice are at least a little more muscled. You'll likely see better growth on the bigger mice too.

As far as space, I think you'd do ok with 2 10-gallons or 2-3 tubs. I'd start out with 1.2 or 1.3 and see how that goes. You could always freeze half a litter every so often to save for your cornsnake and the other little one.

All you would need would be: bedding, food, water bottle, maybe some cardboard boxes/tubes for them to hide in and chew on. That's about it! Oh, and your cages and the mice themselves ;)

We always have cardboard boxes, tubes, and such so thats no problem. As far as tubs, would rounded bottoms cut down on chewing? My fiance has cats and while no cats are allowed in the bedroom due to the fact the snakes are in there, we would be worried about escapees. What would be the ideal size tub for a 1.2 or 1.3 group?

When my fiance and were discussing breeding earlier we thought about doing a trial breeding. Just one male one female, breed them and get a feel for what happens when and better understand how things work. Sound like a good idea. And then we can freeze the offspring when they become fuzzies so Spencer can have some dinner. :D

I really don't have problems with mice chewing on the tubs. You may want to get a longer, wider tub as opposed to one that is taller. Gives more floor space and ventilation.

Definitely get 1/4" hardware cloth to make lids out of. Hoppers can get out of 1/2"(from experience) and you definitely don't want those little turds running around your house.

10-gallons work fine, they are just heavy and take up alot of room. You can easily do up to about 1.5-1.6 in a 10-gallon. They do ok being a bit crowded.

You don't have to worry about mice chewing out of tubs too much. The plastic is pretty hard, and their teeth are pretty small. You'd know it was happening LONG before they made it out.

I'm using 35qt Sterilite tubs with the lid cut and screened. I used 1/4" hardware cloth from Home Depot, and attached it with zip ties. In one of my tubs right now (the 1.2 tub) I've got 3 adults, 11 hoppers (just started coming out) and 11 pinkies that were hatched on Monday. I'm pretty sure the mother of the hoppers is pregnant, too... I've got a 10g tank I'll be putting the hoppers in as soon as I'm 100% sure they're weaned, to grow out for another 2-3 weeks before they're fed off.

BTW, I call all my mice "happy meals" It makes me smile when I call them that in front of people. haha

While they can be crowded, I don't like to crowd any animal. Just my personal preference. I will look into tubs. Any specific size? 15qt? 32qt? I can also look into the hardware cloth on Saturday. I've seen tub setups for mice and rat breeding so I have a general idea of how to go about it. Cut a rectangle out of the top, hot glue or staple the hardware cloth to the inside of the lid. Also create a hole for the water bottle and place a patch of hardware cloth around that hole on the inside to prevent chewing on that, right? Then add bedding, hiding places, chew things, food and mice.

I've also heard that adding vanilla to the water helps reduce smell. These mice will be in my fiance's bedroom, so smell must be kept down as much as possible.

Edit: Sorry I saw that you had answered my question about tub size after I posted this. Whoops!

Oh one question I keep forgetting to ask. Do you remove the male when the female gives birth? Does he pose any risk to the offspring or will he not kill his own offspring?

With the harem breeding you just leave them in there full time until its time for a vacation? And with vacations, how long is a good rest for a female? How many litters do you let a female have before giving her a rest.

Sorry for all the questions but I'm just full of them today. I don't want to do anything wrong and risk the health of any animal, be it feeder, breeder, or pet.

Yes, leave the male in there, and no he won't harm the babies. They are pretty good fathers. Gerbil daddies take the cake though :)

You could probably do 3-4 consecutive litters and then give the females breaks. You could always have another group of 2-3 females that are "in waiting" so to speak, and they could be switched out with the original group. Then you'd still have babies being produced.

nope, I leave my males in full time. Doesn't seem to be a problem, and he even seems to help with taking care of them. Usually when one of the adults is trying to steal the babies back from me he's the one doing it.

For smell... Don't use aspen. It's ok, but you'll have much better success with reducing smell by using Woody Pet, or a similar pelletized wood product. I've heard that wood stove pellets work just as well, but I've never tried them. You can get a 40lb bag of woody pet from your local feed store for less than $5. With 3 tubs, that lasts me about 4-5 weeks with weekly cleanings, and I NEVER have a mousey smell in my very small apartment.

As far as setup, don't staple. Hot glue is ok I suppose, but I really like the zip-tie method. Melt 2 holes in the lid every 4th square of the hardware cloth, one on each side of one of the wires, and zip tie it on. Also melt a hole in the side of the tub, as you mentioned, for the water bottle. I also melt a pair of small holes in the lid of the tub above where the water bottle hole is to attach the wire loop that holds the bottle in place. You shouldn't need the hardware cloth to cover the water bottle hole unless chewing and/or attempted escapes becomes an issue. Just be mindful of how large you melt the hole, and use a razor to cut away the melted plastic. Leaves a nice clean hole, and the tube should barely fit. I use the cheapest bottles I can find, $2 at wal mart for an 8oz bottle. I put approx. 1ml of vanilla in each bottle before filling it, and it does seem to help the smell..

I don't know of any feed stores around here. We have Southern States but I'm not sure what kind of store they are. I know they sell plants. :P

Southern States would probably have the pelletized wood there (the one near me carries woody pet as well as a more off brand type pelletized wood). I use it for my mice and for the rats that I have and it works very well!! No smell in my house, and mice can be very very smelly!! Does your Southern States have the horse section? I would look in there.

I will check tomorrow, as I pass by it everyday. Thanks for all the answers.

For a small breeding colony such as this, how much Mazuri would they consume? I want to get some online and I need to know how much to order.

I'm using Harlan, but it's basically the same thing. a 40lb bag, so far, has lasted me about 4 weeks, and I'm probably only 25% of the way through it.

I double checked our mouse today and I'm pretty certain its a female. Judging by her size, I would estimate her at being anywhere between 6-8 weeks old. I really have no idea. I could get a weight on her Saturday and see what you all think.

Also another question....how often do you switch out males? I'm trying to put together a schedule for females and males as far as where they are when...So far this is what I have

Females have 3 litters then just before giving birth to their third, they are put in the vacation tub where they spend 6 weeks, 3 raising the 3rd litter, and 3 on vacation. After vacation they are re-introduced to the harem tub where she will then produce another 3 litters before being retired.

So I was wondering when I should add new blood to the group since the new females that are to be replacing thier mothers are related to the father?

I looked up mouse sizes on Rodent Pro and now estimate her to be about 5 weeks old. I have heard you shouldn't breed them till they are 12 weeks old right?

yes, 12 weeks old.. However, if you're unsure of the age it's hard to judge. I just put all mine together, and I'm going to be keeping the second generation for my breeders going forward...

And what about the males? When should they be switched out? Or should we just start with a whole new group and a store bought male?

The reason I ask is because I've heard introducing a male to an existing group of females will cause the females to reject the male and possibly kill him.

Oh and another question...Sorry but this I feel is kind of important. Since this little mouse is currently alone in her 10 gallon tank, should we get her a female buddy? I know that when the feeder mouse was in with her, they were grooming each other and sleeping next to each other and such. And if we should get her a buddy, does it matter the other mouses age? We ask because we are going to the store today (not the one we get feeders from) and the only mice they have are normally full grown adults. But always female.

she'd probably like to have a buddy, yes... they're social animals, so having someone there to talk to will be beneficial.

As far as males breeding age... correct me if I'm wrong here guys, but does it really matter? I was under the impression that males could breed successfully basically from 6 weeks to *...

BTW, if you are able, and you're wanting to be able to keep track of your females, get colored ones... having all albino's is killing me on keeping records.. lol

If I get her a buddy, should it be the same age, or can the new female be an adult?

doesn't really matter...

Also, what you mentioned about the females killing the male if he's introduced at a later time...

If you can, if you're introducing a new male, switch up the female colonies too... If you change the entire population a totally new social structure is built from scratch, and there's nobody ganging up on "the new guy"

Mmk. I figured that the whole colony needs to be changed once every 7-8 months or so.

I do have one problem in the schedule for the colonies. There is a period of time (3 weeks) where no one is in gestation or raising young. This is the time that females have thier vacation. What should I do for this period of time regarding feeders?

We got a male and female to try our hands at a trial breeding. One is a brown female, fully grown. The other is a silver male with red eyes, fully grown. We introduced them to the new tank at the same time so it was completely neutral territory for the both of them. As of yet, no aggression. The male is just trying to get his freak on every five seconds and the female is not happy about it. I'll get pictures up tomorrow of them as I've heard some colors carry problems or disorders so I want to make sure that these two are not going to carry any genetic problems.