Getting rid of normal offspring

I just wondered if it's hard to move all the normals generated when you are trying to play the het odds game. :)

I am thinking about breeding in about 2 years (on a very small scale), and I suppose it would be all right to have a few normals around, but how do you place the others?

If you plan to breed you need to plan to keep ALL the offspring. You have no idea what the market will be like when the babies are ready to go - so a hatchling rack, food, money and a commitment to keep them are a must before you breed.

Now as far as trying to find homes (ie. sell them) - you instantly up your chances if you are certified and willing to ship.

Just some of the outlets:
You can place an add on this site for free or buy the ability on Kingsnake or Fauna.
Sell them to a local petstore
Sell them to local friends (kids of parents you know)
Donate them to a local school Science department
Craigslist in your market - you can't sell but it can help in a pinch
to find a home for one or two

All the above have pros and cons

Hope this helps,
Sean

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Originally Posted by lord jackel

If you plan to breed you need to plan to keep ALL the offspring. You have no idea what the market will be like when the babies are ready to go - so a hatchling rack, food, money and a commitment to keep them are a must before you breed.

Now as far as trying to find homes (ie. sell them) - you instantly up your chances if you are certified and willing to ship.

Just some of the outlets:
You can place an add on this site for free or buy the ability on Kingsnake or Fauna.
Sell them to a local petstore
Sell them to local friends (kids of parents you know)
Donate them to a local school Science department
Craigslist in your market - you can't sell but it can help in a pinch
to find a home for one or two

All the above have pros and cons

Hope this helps,
Sean

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I agree with the points you made Sean. I find that I give away most of my normal males to friends and their kids if mom and dad approve. Of course, it comes with husbandry tips and lots of questions to make sure they know what they're doing. :)

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Originally Posted by Alice

I agree with the points you made Sean. I find that I give away most of my normal males to friends and their kids if mom and dad approve. Of course, it comes with husbandry tips and lots of questions to make sure they know what they're doing. :)

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Ditto. I have placed countless snakes with friends, coworkers kids, science teachers, etc (of course making sure that they know exactly what they're getting into before giving them the snake). That's a great avenue to place the normal ones.

I agree. As a breeder, you should be able to keep all babies you produce until the right homes can be found. I am probably keeping almost all of what I bred last year overwinter. Normals and Pastels.. why? Because I sold a few to the right people, and the right people for the others have not come along yet.
I do not advise anyone to give animals away. For one, you could just be losing money by having the person who receives it, sell it off later on. Two, people never seem to value anything that was free, the same way that they do it it were bought. This is something I learned fro my friend, who did dog/cat rescues for years. Give someone a snake, and they have no money invested into it and thus is really can become disposable. Heck, I even sold one male to my best friend and her husband, and had them pay for it! And I see the snake once a month or so at their place.. still would not give it away. I would sit on them for 20 years before I would give one for free, even if the recipient were my own mother.

I already have one of my cousin's waiting on a normal male, who know's maybe he'll get a pastel male if the odd's are good. My plan is to keep female normal's and sell my normal male's to pet shop's and reptile shop's in south florida.

Yes, there are usually pet stores that will buy normal males for pet-quality snakes. Since normal males are really not that helpful to morph-breeding hobbyists.. while female normals are. Do not expect to get a huge amount for them though; that's how they make their money, you know? Yet, I can get from a few local pet stores, the same general vaule (minus shipping) I would get if I sold the normal males online.
You might do well to hold back your normal girls and sell them later on down the road as future breeders. It is something you'd have to do the math for, from a business standpoint; or they could grow on you also, and become breeders you yourself can use later on.

I can move my normal bps very easy. I have at least 5 pet stores in a 30 mile radius of my home. Maybe you can ask the ones close to you if they would be interested. Some like to advertise the snakes as "locally captive bred". I mainly sell to one store, he breeds some of his own reptiles too and takes great care of them. I won't sell to a store that doesn't take good care of their animals.

As far as giving normals away. I agree with that. I've done it in the past and will probably do it again. Their isn't any money in them anyway. As long as its going to a good home, I don't see a problem.

I think you should make the effort to either keep or find good homes for any hatchlings you breed.

Culling healthy hatchlings is unethical IMO, I heard of one US corn breeder that culled TWO THOUSAND (!!!????!!!) healthy corn hatchlings because they were low end morphs. I would give anything to have eleven healthy feeding corn hatchlings (that's the number I bred so far this year, the mother of one of the two clutches is currently triple clutching), I didn't place the lid back on a tub properly and three feeding babies took the opportunity to vacate their tub. Only one of the other three hatchlings from that clutch is a regular feeder and I've only got one regular feeder from my other female's batch of five worms

There isn't any money in normals? Then why have I sold three this year so far? :) Smart buyers will hold off on buying some CH pet store gambles. They'll get their normals from breeders they trust, that can trace the baby's life from the time its parents copulated.
The snakes you produce are technically yours to give away, keep for 25 years, or sell. That's the free market. If you are 100% sure that the givee knows how to care for a snake and has all of the right tools, I guess that is fine. I had been given a female last year by Cue when our eggs went bad, and I am still grateful. To some, she might have just been a regular old normal who doesn't have any monetary worth.. but to me, she is an awesome snake.
But it does upset me that people view normals as something to "get rid of" and that "there isn't any money in them anyway." Maybe if people stopped giving them away, their value would not be so low. If I had an answer that'd cure the overpopulation of unwanted normals in pet rescues, I would use it, but I really don't know.

I had trouble getting rid of males, but females sell ok. I ended up wholesaling out almost all my poss het males as normals (kept most of my male poss het lavenders) and getting $8 each. I did not sell any poss het females, but I was able to get about $25 for normal females. It's hard for me at least to get much more when a couple hundred thousand CH babies were just imported a few weeks/months prior. If you don't mind holding and feeding them for a few months you may be able to get a better price from pet stores near christmas.

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

There isn't any money in normals? Then why have I sold three this year so far?

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I agree you can sell a few for a good price if you don't mind holding them for a while but there is a big difference between selling 3 or 4 normals and trying to sell 70 or 80.

Ouch..
This is an industry like no other, really. If you think about it..

i somewhat agree with ginevive on this issue, while normals dont have much "monetary" value they are still living creatures and cannot choose there skin color any more than you or me can. there not worthless and i dont belive one should just dump them into the first random pet store that will take a few dozen on whole sale knowing perfectly well pet stores are the worse place to purchase a snake from and also those who shop at pet stores usualy have no idea of what there getting into. just see something pretty or "shocking" and have some disposible income.

though i disagree about having no value in something that is free. nearly all pets ive ever owned have been free and i love them and take the best care of them i can. had a free dog for over 14 years, thats a long time for a dog so i must of done something right. pet rabbit whom was free for lil over 2 years now, just got done rigging up a little winter box for him, even though i know he needs to be inside thats not possible.

anyways the point im driving twords is a value of worth should not be measured in monetary value. if you wish to give a pet away the receivers payment should be answering and asking questions to proove they are a responsible pet owner. a good question to ask a receiver if you are giving a normal away would be what sort of set-up they have if any and they should be asking you questions as well like if the snake has good feeding habits, if you sexed them and medical information.

one can easly place a pet and do it for free but a paycheck doesnt determine a persons credability or responsibility

I get rid of my extra normal males or poss hets. To two local pet shops. I wouldnt just give them to just any pet shop for free or almost nothing. Do some checking make sure they know how to keep the snakes. If you go into the store and its all nasty dont sell to them. There are 2 shops i sell to. They both take great care of all there reptiles. Thats one reason i sell to them. The other is they wont sell something to someone that doesnt know how to take care of the animal. If some kid comes in, I want a snake. Well they have to be 18+ or have a parent with them. Then they question them about the animal to make sure they know how to take care of them. If they dont know the answers they dont get the snake. They give them a care sheet for that animal. They are not in it just to make money these two guys care about the animals they sell. I think thats cool so someone doesnt come in and say my 5 year old wants a snake. Then a week later they want there money back. Because the snake ate the family dog. Or They killed it or whatever and want there money back. I get 50.00 each for my captive born males from these two guys. They like it because there nice captive born babies well started and they dont have to worry about getting sick or non eating animals from a wholesaler. I dont have alot, i only have about 24 or 25 balls. Not more than 3 or 4 clutches a year. That will go up as some females get older. I get emails almost ever week from these two guys. Asking if i have any normal males ready to go. Like i said check into the shop make sure everything is cool. Clean well taken care of animals. Not 20 in one cage all that kind of stuff. Check into them make sure they know what there talking about when it comes to the care of an animal. See if they sell to anyone as long as they have money. Or that they really care where the animals go. Oh another thing i keep most of my females. If i know they are 100% normal then i might let some go. But all hets and poss hets i keep. Its kind of hard to find a good pet shop thats not in it just for the money. Most of them are.

Craigslist can actually be helpful too. I have used it to place animals for an adoption fee (around $30.) I find that the fee will filter off the losers who are looking for a novelty pet or even weirdos that would use it for something weird like an animal sacrifice (I know that might sound out-there.. but it is not, believe me.) It is not going against CL rules because yes, the animal is up for adoption and no, I am not "charging retail" compared to what pet stores are selling them for in my area. Unknown-sex imports are upwards of $50.00 in some stores! I figure that I am doing people a favor by making CBB normals available at a lower price.. and I always include a caresheet with any snakes I put out.
Another bonus: you can deal locally and this is helpful when you are not yet certified for shipping.

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

There isn't any money in normals? Then why have I sold three this year so far?
it does upset me that people view normals as something to "get rid of" and that "there isn't any money in them anyway."

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I thinks it's safe to say that their isn't any money in normals. Maybe I should have said "much money". I don't consider $35 to $50(if your lucky) each as much money. If your lucky you will break even. That works for me. Does that mean that they are worthless? Not to me. I don't consider somethings worth as how much I can sell it for. I have many normals that I don't even breed. I just enjoy them. I'm sorry it upsets you that their monetary value is so low. I hope you can get use to it, its not changing any time soon. Unless you can stop the rate at which they are imported.

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Originally Posted by Lokua

while normals dont have much "monetary" value they are still living creatures and cannot choose there skin color any more than you or me can.

though i disagree about having no value in something that is free. a value of worth should not be measured in monetary value.

one can easly place a pet and do it for free but a paycheck doesnt determine a persons credability or responsibility

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all very good points. I agree 100%

Pet stores in this area charge 79.99-149.99 for normal import babies...hows that for sticker shock?
Anyway I want to comment on something Gin said earlier about giving away animals. I myself have been the recipient of many many 'free' animals. My guinea pigs, my evil dwarf hamster Chins, even my cat Cooper as well as a handful of my snakes. They ALL recieve the same love and care as the animals I pay money for. I notice on sites like Craigslist people asking a $300 'rehoming' fee for their 1 year old designer dog that needs hip surgery that they can't afford to 'insure a good home'. Well, the price they paid the first time didn't insure it a good solid home did it? It's not about the money, it's about the person, many many people that get animals for free are great owners who love and care for the critters just as much as if they had cost a million dollars.

/soapbox

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

I would sit on them for 20 years before I would give one for free, even if the recipient were my own mother.

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That seems rather harsh to me. Weren't you just given a ball python for free last year? I also enjoyed being able to gift a lovely ball python to Joanna. Just because it was free didn't diminish it's value in her collection, as I'm sure Luna's value wasn't diminished in yours.

No, I still would not give one away to a stranger. I see those "free to good home" ads and they just rub me the wrong way personally. It is up to anyone's discretion on who and how they give/sell animals and I am not judging or disliking anyone for their doing so. It is just not something I would do personally for someone I did not know.
I greatly appreciated being gifted with Luna, and everytime I open her tub, I smile. She is one of those snakes that I would never sell unless maybe I was on poverty's door and had to get rid of them all. And with my way of thinking, I would feel morally obligated to gift her to someone, as I could not sell what I did not really buy; I would feel wrong doing that. Maybe, just maybe if it were someone I fully and completely trusted and respected, I might gift them with a snake. I am actually contemplating the thought now.. but if it were a case of "they can't afford it, so I will give it to them.." No. If they could not afford the snake's price, how would they fare if the snake had to be vetted, or their equipment broke, etc? I am just too leary after seeing my friend operate a dog rescue and having bunches of smarmy people sneering at her for wanting a modest fee because "they were not made of money" or "it is just a mutt." The fees covered the immunizations and feeding of the dogs she rescued.. no one, unless they have no budget limits, can do that stuff alone!
So in closing: I guess I am changing my tune a bit. If it were someone I was completely confident in, I would consider gifting. I would not advertise off to people I do not either know personally or feel confident in.. if there were someone on say, this forum, who regularly posted pics of their healthy snakes and great setups, I would ponder gifting. There was actually a person a few months back who had a loss in their life, who I offered a hatchling to.. But I hate "free to good home" ads! And the animal sacrifice issue is not just me being overdramatic. I have heard of so many cases of that crap..
I guess another bit of the fee thing, comes from my other friend who rescues horses. She would never let a horse go for free, because people could just turn around and auction it off at the meat buyers' the next day. Her mission was to rescue horses from that fate, and keep them until she could find a real home for them.

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

I do not advise anyone to give animals away.

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No offense, but I disagree.

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For one, you could just be losing money by having the person who receives it, sell it off later on.

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Maybe...but I don't really see that as a solid reason.

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Two, people never seem to value anything that was free, the same way that they do it it were bought. This is something I learned fro my friend, who did dog/cat rescues for years. Give someone a snake, and they have no money invested into it and thus is really can become disposable.

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Which is why if I'm giving away a snake I make damn sure that as far as I can tell they're dead serious about keeping it. Mostly I give them away to people who were getting a snake anyways. They were prepared to pay the $80 for a pet store snake when they heard "Oh my boss's son breeds snakes, he could offer advice blah blah blah"...something like that. And then the come to me asking about them, and saying how they were going to pick one out at the pet store later that week. I usually caution them that pet stores aren't the best place to buy snakes. And if I have a couple of normals then I have no problem offering them to them (and if I don't I tell them to bite the bullet and buy from a breeder online and pay a little more). For people like that I have no issue giving away one for free.

I've had people say to me "well if they're free I guess I'll get one". Those are the people who I won't give it away. Because I do agree with you that if they already have a vested monitary interest they're going to take it seriously. To those people I usually tell them what all it entails that they should think it over for a month or two and price things and that I won't even think of giving it to them unless they've already purchased everything needed. And even then with these people I'll usually say "well there's a $25 adoption fee". If they're like "well I only want it if its free" then there's no way they're getting one from me.

I guess my point is that one has to use a little common sense. Because I agree 100% with you that some people just would see them as disposable and often you can filter those types out by charging an adoption fee (whatever else you want to call it).

But I disagree that giving them away is intrinsically bad. I've placed dozens of snakes for free over the years; and every single one that I still hear from is doing great and the owners are still thankful to this day.

Just my 2¢.

I would at least charge $20 or something, but that is just me. I spent the time breeding, incubating, feeding up the hatchlings.. I would like something for my work. This is just the way I see it.. like I said before though, to each their own. I am not knocking anyone for giving them away.. just giving the reasons why I don't :) I just don't like to give something away that I spent time and effort into creating.

I am finding more and more, that the normals are easier to place than the pastels. I have all normals spoken for right now, but some pastels unsold. And with the dropped prices on pastels this year, heck, I am not getting much more per pastel than for each normal! I am glad that I am not in it for the money, and did not expect to profit anyway.

Since I only give living things away to people I know are going to appreciate and care for them, I find it quite enjoyable...

Tried to give you good rep Sean, but told me I had to spread it around before I gave it to you again.
Lots of good points in this post overall. :D

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

I would at least charge $20 or something, but that is just me. I spent the time breeding, incubating, feeding up the hatchlings.. I would like something for my work. This is just the way I see it.. like I said before though, to each their own. I am not knocking anyone for giving them away.. just giving the reasons why I don't :) I just don't like to give something away that I spent time and effort into creating.

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And I don't want you to think I'm knocking you for not giving them away either. :) As you said to each their own. For me personally, I found that I often ended up spending more on food and what not by the time I finally sold normals than what I sold them for. In the end I figure it's not that much loss. Plus a good gesture like that can go a long way as well...

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

No, I still would not give one away to a stranger. I see those "free to good home" ads and they just rub me the wrong way personally. It is up to anyone's discretion on who and how they give/sell animals and I am not judging or disliking anyone for their doing so. It is just not something I would do personally for someone I did not know.

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i think you missed the key word in that "free to GOOD home."

the ad's do not read "free garbage i dont want to any smuck willing to take these pests off my hands" now while some people whom run free to good home ads are just wanting to unload unwanted pets and dont care whom aquires them.

however it is your discretion as to what qualifys as a "good" home which is the point i was driving at. you know what is required to keep a snake, its not like a dog where you can throw some kibble and bits on the front porch and they will survive. you must have a setup, properly ajusted tempatures and humidity, knowledge upon how often to feed, what to do for the next couple days after they feed, there temperment during sheds. ect.

if someone was to come to your door about a "free to GOOD home" snake you should be able to spot right away if they are truly wanting a 20+ year commitment pet, novelty item or just a complete lying phony. all you simply must do is ask a few questions, just by asking "well okay, may i ask what kind of setup do you have" i doubt an animal sacrificer will go through the trouble of buying a tank or tub, heat pads, hides, substate and all that if they just intend to slaughter the creature the next day.

and even if they pass the Q&A round and you still feel uneasy about selling a snake (example. there knowledged in how to care for a snake but do not actualy have the setup) you could ask for a picture of said tank or even swing by there place (assuming there local, since really pretty much anyone could google snake care) and make sure everything looks A-okay. just my opinion :)

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Originally Posted by Lokua

you know what is required to keep a snake, its not like a dog where you can throw some kibble and bits on the front porch and they will survive.

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What? I really do not know how to reply to that statement..
Am I really the only one out here that dislikes "free to good home" ads and sees them as cop-outs for people to dump animals off that probably have huge amounts of things wrong with them?
I see nothing wrong, after thinking about it, with gifting a trusted person with a snake. It was a bit harsh, yes, for me to say I was 100% against giving away animals, thus. But no.. I will never agree to endorsing FTGH ads. Your comment on dogs though.. I don't know what that is supposed to mean!

I don't mean to hijack this, but kinda going with the original
question on what to do with the babies...
How much would you expect to put into their upkeep?
For one, can anyone reccomend a good hatchling rack?
Who prefers belly heat over back heat?
How long can a hatchling stay in the hatchling rack?
(yes, i know they aren't all the same, just, in general)

What could one expect to pay in upkeep on the hatchlings?
-food
-substrate

I know there's a big controversy on feeding f/t vs. live,
but, what are the pros and cons of feeding either
to a hatchling, AND, if you decide to feed live,
what kind of costs would you expect from raising your own feeders?

Sorry to bombard you all with this, but my hubby (who has shown NO interest in my balls) all the sudden is talking about
us breeding. So, I want to be as prepared as I can before I actually put a male and female together.

Thanks in advance!:D

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

What? I really do not know how to reply to that statement..
Am I really the only one out here that dislikes "free to good home" ads and sees them as cop-outs for people to dump animals off that probably have huge amounts of things wrong with them?
I see nothing wrong, after thinking about it, with gifting a trusted person with a snake. It was a bit harsh, yes, for me to say I was 100% against giving away animals, thus. But no.. I will never agree to endorsing FTGH ads. Your comment on dogs though.. I don't know what that is supposed to mean!

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sorry, perhaps that came out wrong. i in no way ment to disrespect dog owners, simply putting that keeping a mammal is easyer than keeping a reptile.

that if you just provide food and water for a dog they will live, its not required for a dog to have a dog house, or to be brought in from the cold or have there tempature controlled and regulated. i was simply stating that the knowledge you have about keeping snakes would allow you to make an informed descision about keeping (or even selling) a snake to someone by asking them questions about how they intend to care for the creature. that in of itself could be used to establish if someone is worthy and creditable for keeping such a pet.

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Originally Posted by SnakieMom

I don't mean to hijack this, but kinda going with the original
question on what to do with the babies...
How much would you expect to put into their upkeep?
For one, can anyone reccomend a good hatchling rack?
Who prefers belly heat over back heat?
How long can a hatchling stay in the hatchling rack?
(yes, i know they aren't all the same, just, in general)

What could one expect to pay in upkeep on the hatchlings?
-food
-substrate

I know there's a big controversy on feeding f/t vs. live,
but, what are the pros and cons of feeding either
to a hatchling, AND, if you decide to feed live,
what kind of costs would you expect from raising your own feeders?

Sorry to bombard you all with this, but my hubby (who has shown NO interest in my balls) all the sudden is talking about
us breeding. So, I want to be as prepared as I can before I actually put a male and female together.

Thanks in advance!:D

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cant answer all of those (alot are more experienced than me and will let them chime in) but will give info on a few.

belly heat is better for digestion and lets the snake better ajust there tempature to their liking but back heat is important too for the air tempature, eles the belly will be warm but the air above the snake will simply be room tempature which is not good (again not as knowledged as others so they may please give their imput during the daylight hours)

as for F/t vs live, i really cannot think of any pros to live except it may stimulate a better feeding response if you have a very finicky eater and if that is the case one should really work on getting them onto f/t (that and i guess those whom only have a snake to watch them eat a living creature)

cons of live however are that its alive and has a pretty good survival instinct, a mouse(or rat or whatever you are feeding) does not wish to be eaten, thus they will fight and can potentialy harm your snake. they have sharp claws and sharp teeth and dont just roll over to be devoured.

as for raising them and the cost, it would probably be cheaper to raise them yourself than buy frozen. all one would really need is a cage, food and water. and the responsibility to clean up their messes but would still suggest pre-killing the feeder before offering it to the snake. there really is no...proper way to kill a mouse, my personal suggestion is electrocution or to shove a large needle or dart (like that for dart boards) into the back of the neck, it will sever the spine and IMO the most painless way for the mouse. i suggest steralizing the dart beforehand with alcohol or fire (let it cool before using) just hold them and shove it in into the spine, you could puncture the head but pushing through the skull is much harder but if you do that do temple to temple or through the ear

sry, hope none of that sounds gorey. its just the most painless way in my opinion, alot of people suggest chrushing their heads with a hammer or slamming them onto something. which is fine but you end up with a mess and a chrushed feeder, my way is more eye-pleasing and with chrushing you sometimes mess up and have to do it again which is not a very appealing thing to do.

wholesalers use co2 to kill theres, basicly they suffocate them. works fine even though i dont personaly like that method as unsure what this can do to the snake once they eat food that has been pumped full of co2.

DO NOT use posion of any kind, this will kill your snake.

edit: one last thing, when working with sharp objects be EXTREMLY careful not to slip and stab yourself. i reccomend using latex gloves when performing this. it requires a bit of force to get kill a mouse VIA dart to the neck so dont be gentle and dont poke yourself, last thing i want is someone to have a disease or infection.

i do suggest being humane to all animals. but if all this is too squimish for you then you can just place the creature into a tupperware container and freeze them. its cruel in my opinion but gets the job done

sry. one last thing (and cant locate edit buttion) heres a quickie on ft VS live http://rodentpro.com/feeder_animals.asp

^ there also good for buying, id reccomend rodent pro.

raising feeder mice has its benifits, and would reccomend that course but you must kill them yourself, i strongly reccomend against live prey

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Originally Posted by Lokua

as for F/t vs live, i really cannot think of any pros to live except it may stimulate a better feeding response if you have a very finicky eater and if that is the case one should really work on getting them onto f/t (that and i guess those whom only have a snake to watch them eat a living creature)

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You will find that here on bp.net, we advocate that it's up to each individual keeper to decide which method is most convenient for them. We have many members, including myself, who have fed off thousands of live prey without any injury to our animals. When done responsibly, and with appropriately sized prey, feeding live has a very low risk of causing injury to your snake. I've fed over 3000 live prey off and never had one injure any of my 17 snakes. Even if I had just one injury (which I haven't) the risk would be 1 in 3000 or .000333% chance of injury. Less than a percent, much less than a 1% chance for injury.

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cons of live however are that its alive and has a pretty good survival instinct, a mouse(or rat or whatever you are feeding) does not wish to be eaten, thus they will fight and can potentialy harm your snake. they have sharp claws and sharp teeth and dont just roll over to be devoured.

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Actually, they are too busy trying to breath to do much more.

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there really is no...proper way to kill a mouse

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Yes there is, CO2 chamber. We have stickies in the Feeder forum for making your own.

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my personal suggestion is electrocution or to shove a large needle or dart (like that for dart boards) into the back of the neck, it will sever the spine and IMO the most painless way for the mouse. i suggest steralizing the dart beforehand with alcohol or fire (let it cool before using) just hold them and shove it in into the spine, you could puncture the head but pushing through the skull is much harder but if you do that do temple to temple or through the ear

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How do you know that your method is painless to the mice? Have you had a dart or needle shoved into your head?

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sry, hope none of that sounds gorey. its just the most painless way in my opinion, alot of people suggest chrushing their heads with a hammer or slamming them onto something. which is fine but you end up with a mess and a chrushed feeder, my way is more eye-pleasing and with chrushing you sometimes mess up and have to do it again which is not a very appealing thing to do.

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Again, the only humane way to euthanize feeders is with a CO2 chamber.

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wholesalers use co2 to kill theres, basicly they suffocate them. works fine even though i dont personaly like that method as unsure what this can do to the snake once they eat food that has been pumped full of co2.

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CO2 is what you exhale every time you breath, it's not going to harm your snake.

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i do suggest being humane to all animals. but if all this is too squimish for you then you can just place the creature into a tupperware container and freeze them. its cruel in my opinion but gets the job done

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Then please start using a CO2 chamber rather than the way you currently are pre-killing your prey.

Rabernet, I 100% agree.

And, Lokua, thanks for your input.

Does anyone else have any info on this subject?
(The questions I asked before, not on whether or not to feed
live or f/t and how to 'pre-kill'.)

I'm not about to try to bring up that topic again!:D

np. wish i could be more helpful on that subject. my "opinion" on live VS f/t is feed pre-killed

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Originally Posted by rabernet

CO2 is what you exhale every time you breath, it's not going to harm your snake.

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Well, that's not exactly true. CO2 in large concentrations will mix readily with the water of the mucous membranes and produce carbonic acid which can be quite painful. That's why it's advisable to start off with low concentrations when using a CO2 chamber and increasing the concentration after the the rats/mice are unconscious.

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Originally Posted by xdeus

Well, that's not exactly true. CO2 in large concentrations will mix readily with the water of the mucous membranes and produce carbonic acid which can be quite painful. That's why it's advisable to start off with low concentrations when using a CO2 chamber and increasing the concentration after the the rats/mice are unconscious.

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Good to know for the humane killing of feeders. However, the point was that the CO2 breathed in by the prey is not a toxin that is going to harm your snake. Would you agree?

On the CO2 discussion, I was under the impression that CO2 is heavier than oxygen, you keep the CO2 on a low stream, and the oxygen is replaced by CO2 slowly, during this, the animal will get drowsy and fall asleep. When the animal is asleep, you turn the CO2 on high, and end it quickly while they are asleep.

And I can't see CO2 staying in high concentrations in a feeder for so long that it is harmful to the snake.

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Originally Posted by SnakieMom

I don't mean to hijack this, but kinda going with the original
question on what to do with the babies...

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I sale my to a locale reptile store here in my area

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How much would you expect to put into their upkeep?

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Money wise is the cost of water,power,substrate,any medical,records, and feeder care

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For one, can anyone reccomend a good hatchling rack?

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Build your own. You can make it to the size and type you need.

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Who prefers belly heat over back heat?

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I like belly heat for all my snakes.

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How long can a hatchling stay in the hatchling rack?
(yes, i know they aren't all the same, just, in general)

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I make my hatchling racks to hold 15qt sterlite tubs. They stay in that till they are 500-600 grams then get moved to a 32qt rack

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What could one expect to pay in upkeep on the hatchlings?
-food
-substrate

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Food: I raise my own so for food and water and bedding 50.00 a month
Substrate: Newspaper so 20.00 a month
Cleaning: 19.95 for a gal of clorahexadine

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I know there's a big controversy on feeding f/t vs. live,
but, what are the pros and cons of feeding either
to a hatchling, AND, if you decide to feed live,
what kind of costs would you expect from raising your own feeders?

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I feed live because there is no waste if an animal doesn't eat. Plus with a lot of snakes you don't have time to heat and reheat F/T, the natural movement of the prey stimulates the feeding response, For tricky feeders that need to be left alone in the dark to eat that can be hard to stimulate an feeding responce with P/K or F/T.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Good to know for the humane killing of feeders. However, the point was that the CO2 breathed in by the prey is not a toxin that is going to harm your snake. Would you agree?

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Yep. :yes: I just re-read your quote and for some reason I picked up a different meaning the first time. Color me discombobulated. :imslow:

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Originally Posted by xdeus

Yep. :yes: I just re-read your quote and for some reason I picked up a different meaning the first time. Color me discombobulated. :imslow:

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I love that word. :D

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

I feed live because there is no waste if an animal doesn't eat. Plus with a lot of snakes you don't have time to heat and reheat F/T, the natural movement of the prey stimulates the feeding response, For tricky feeders that need to be left alone in the dark to eat that can be hard to stimulate an feeding responce with P/K or F/T.

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Thank you for such detailed answers, I very much appreciate it!:)

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Originally Posted by Swingline0.0.1

I just wondered if it's hard to move all the normals generated when you are trying to play the het odds game. :)

I am thinking about breeding in about 2 years (on a very small scale), and I suppose it would be all right to have a few normals around, but how do you place the others?

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I've wondered about this myself. Probably depends on where you live. The exotics stores here buy all sorts of animals from area breeders regularly.

The store I frequent moves alot of normal BP's and I know for a fact they buy quite a few of them from area breeders. They sell normals for $69. They also have favored breeders that regularly provide them with very nice normals and they put them in a separate enclosure, label them "Extra Fancy", and charge $99 for them.

In general, the vast majority of BP's sold in pet stores are normals - and its ALOT of snakes. If you just want to move non-morphs at a reduced rate (maybe $25 apiece?) I would think there is nearly an insatiable market out there.

But, if you want to make sure each and every one finds a good home, that's another "ball" game entirely. ;)

In my area, which is very close to a MAJOR metropolis, most pet stores get them from imports.

I have been having a hard time finding pet stores in my area in particular, since one of the pet stores near me imported a 1000 CH babies this year.

It is either have the space to keep them, or don't breed them.

You have to keep that in mind, and be prepared for the babies ahead of time.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

When done responsibly, and with appropriately sized prey, feeding live has a very low risk of causing injury to your snake. I've fed over 3000 live prey off and never had one injure any of my 17 snakes. Even if I had just one injury (which I haven't) the risk would be 1 in 3000 or .000333% chance of injury. Less than a percent, much less than a 1% chance for injury.

Actually, they are too busy trying to breath to do much more.

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Agreed. I think the biggest thing here is to make sure to feed prey that are small enough for the snake to overwhelm. It is safer for the snake, and it is more humane because the prey tend to die much more quickly.

To such an appropriately sized prey item, the snake is practically impervious. The exception, I think, are the eyes. However, the way snakes constrict make it very unlikely that a rodent will be in a position to take a good shot at an eye. My experience thus far has been that a cluttered "kill zone" should be avoided because it encourages the snake to take less than ideal strikes. A poor initial strike increases the chance that the rodent will be able to effectively fight back.

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Originally Posted by LadyOhh

In my area, which is very close to a MAJOR metropolis, most pet stores get them from imports.

I have been having a hard time finding pet stores in my area in particular, since one of the pet stores near me imported a 1000 CH babies this year.

It is either have the space to keep them, or don't breed them.

You have to keep that in mind, and be prepared for the babies ahead of time.

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I live in a 1mil pop city. We have our petco's and whatnot. I'm referring to the smaller "botique" type exotics stores, of which we have several. Plus, if you count all of the exotic pet stores within 4 hours drive of here, there are probably several dozen.

Ultimately, nobody would be in the breeding business if they couldn't sell the offspring, normal or otherwise. I think the message here should be more like "You shouldn't put yourself in a position where you are rushed to get rid of the offspring".

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Originally Posted by bearhart

I live in a 1mil pop city. We have our petco's and whatnot. I'm referring to the smaller "botique" type exotics stores, of which we have several. Plus, if you count all of the exotic pet stores within 4 hours drive of here, there are probably several dozen.

Ultimately, nobody would be in the breeding business if they couldn't sell the offspring, normal or otherwise. I think the message here should be more like "You shouldn't put yourself in a position where you are rushed to get rid of the offspring".

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I was referring to a smaller Mom and Pop reptile store as the one who imported the 1000.

And, as for the rushing, that is a personal issue, mostly due to funding and patience.

I still believe that if you cannot afford to keep them, don't breed them.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

On the CO2 discussion, I was under the impression that CO2 is heavier than oxygen, you keep the CO2 on a low stream, and the oxygen is replaced by CO2 slowly, during this, the animal will get drowsy and fall asleep. When the animal is asleep, you turn the CO2 on high, and end it quickly while they are asleep.

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The results depend entirely on the concentration. At a concentration of 8%, CO2 acts as a pain killer. As the concentration gets higher, the anesthetic effect acts more swiftly. However, high concentrations can cause distress.

However, tests on rats showed that a gradually increasing concentration of 33% caused no notable stress, and cardiac arrest within 5 minutes.

It takes some practice to use a CO2 chamber properly. Namely because CO2 meters are really REALLY expensive, so "doing it by hand" is often the method of choice. However, if you are killing them in 30 seconds, the concentration is WAY too high.

In my experience, if they are going to sleep within 2-3 minutes you are doing it right.

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And I can't see CO2 staying in high concentrations in a feeder for so long that it is harmful to the snake.

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It's impossible, so that's a fairly reasonable stance ;).

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Originally Posted by jhall1468

The results depend entirely on the concentration. At a concentration of 8%, CO2 acts as a pain killer. As the concentration gets higher, the anesthetic effect acts more swiftly. However, high concentrations can cause distress.

However, tests on rats showed that a gradually increasing concentration of 33% caused no notable stress, and cardiac arrest within 5 minutes.

It takes some practice to use a CO2 chamber properly. Namely because CO2 meters are really REALLY expensive, so "doing it by hand" is often the method of choice. However, if you are killing them in 30 seconds, the concentration is WAY too high.

In my experience, if they are going to sleep within 2-3 minutes you are doing it right.



It's impossible, so that's a fairly reasonable stance ;).

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I haven't posted in a while, but this topic caught my attention.

I use Dry Ice to euthanize my prey animals that are too big to feed live. Only a few pieces in a bowl of water that is placed in a larger bucket and a top put over it (or not) do the job safely and humanely without the worry of measuring gases

Also it's not expensive, about 1.50 a pound or so. The con is that the ice evaporates within 24 hours so for best results, one should have all their animals that they plan to feed done at the same time.

The rats that I have euthanized this way go to sleep immediately after being put in the bucket. There is no kicking, clawing, just a simply laying down and going to sleep. There is also on my part, no worrying about combustible gases.

All you have to do, is look around. Many pet stores will buy your normals. I know of one guy, who had already ordered in some normals from another breeder, and was upset that I had not asked him sooner! Get out there before you even breed; just shoot around for places that'd be interested, and keep in contact and build a rapport. You could even think of trading your babies for feeders, bedding, or the like.
I only deal with really good pet stores though, and through Craigslist of all places, I found my local shop that will be getting first dibs on anything that I breed and don't hold back, and vice versa. We plan on doing some exciting trades (they're running het pieds soon.. you know where I am going on that one!) and I plan on spiders this year, and they are excited about that. Awesome stuff all around!