What came first, the spider or the egg?

Since at least one parent has to be a spider to get a spider, how was the first spider produced? This goes for all co-doms, doms. and hets, since none of these are achieved from selective breeding. I think I need to take it easy on the Dextromethorphan cough syrup :D

I know that the first spider was a WC import, which I believe Nerd got around 1999(ish). As for all other co-dom mutations, the majority of them were WC imports as well. The only recessive trait that was ever found 'accidentally' that I know for sure was the albino gene, which Bob Clark produced the first recorded albino in the early 90's.

I believe they are just mutant versions of a gene. One time when some normals mated the gene on that loci changed into what the spider is. Mutations are random and can sometimes lead to defects or just be a cool pattern change.:)

At one point Bob Clark had a place on his website that discussed his efforts to import the albino male that kicked off his line.

I think all the mutations so far just happened randomly in the wild and then we stumbled on them while mining through the upwards of a hundred thousands "captive hatched" babies each year.

I understand where the first captive morphs came from, I just wanted to know how these recessive and co-dom genes were first produced in the first snakes in the wild. Kind of like the old chicken or the eggs question.

And Randy, I thought you did a great job on reptileradio when you were on. You expressed your explainations and theories very clearly and in a way I'm sure almost everyone can understand.

This is a philosophical question, the same as with the chicken or egg question. If you believe in evolution than the egg came first, that is, like said above a mutation occured when two "normals" breed and one of their offspring became what we call a spider. If you believe in creation than the spider came first and God put it there.

~DGD
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Originally Posted by DoGood

This is a philosophical question, the same as with the chicken or egg question. If you believe in evolution than the egg came first, that is, like said above a mutation occured when two "normals" breed and one of their offspring became what we call a spider. If you believe in creation than the spider came first and God put it there.

~DGD
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One can disagree with large scale evolution and still believe that mutation is a very real and changing factor in our world.

The egg came first... with a randomly mutated spider ball python inside it. :) Someone discovered this spider ball - whether it was the first one, or one of its offspring and brought it here.


Justin

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Originally Posted by DoGood

This is a philosophical question, the same as with the chicken or egg question. If you believe in evolution than the egg came first, that is, like said above a mutation occured when two "normals" breed and one of their offspring became what we call a spider. If you believe in creation than the spider came first and God put it there.

~DGD
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:welcome::bolt:

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Originally Posted by PythonWallace

I understand where the first captive morphs came from, I just wanted to know how these recessive and co-dom genes were first produced in the first snakes in the wild. Kind of like the old chicken or the eggs question.

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I hate to give a anti-climactic answer, but the recessives were random too. A good possibility is that two normals mate and the offspirng gets one mutated albino gene. Then brother and sister mate and bam! your first wild albino. Now this wild albino will probably be killed off very early in its life unless it is careful(Natural Selection).

The albino gene is also a defect affecting the cells that produce melanin. Other than that they are healthy :)

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Originally Posted by jkobylka

The egg came first... with a randomly mutated spider ball python inside it. :)

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Unless of course you believe that the kind of egg is determined by what laid it instead of what it has inside it. After all, I think most of us would agree that the eggs we typically eat are chicken eggs, but since we usually eat ones that aren't fertile, that means the name comes from the hen, not the non-existent chick.

So that means the spider came first, hatched out of a normal egg.

Now let's see if I can make your head hurt. If the first spider was a male, then even the second generation of spiders hatched out of normal eggs, cuz the male mated with normal females, who obviously lay normal eggs. :P

I think in the embryotic state, the placement of the cells are all controlled by genes and their modifiers, so I see no reason why it isnt possible for it to have mutated in the egg from a normal to normal cross.

Or perhaps, it didn't come out as we see it today, but micro evolution took place and we get the spider we have today.

Or, it has always been around. lol

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Originally Posted by jkobylka

One can disagree with large scale evolution and still believe that mutation is a very real and changing factor in our world.

Justin

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It would be wise to believe that mutation is "real" it's proven and can be seen in everyday life. This mutation is also called evolution, if the mutation survives on for an extent reproductive time. Only the religous nuts and the ignorant fools don't believe that large scale evolution exists. These people can see the evolution of things like bacteria, viruses, etc. (hopefully) but deny that God didnt create each individual speices. /rant

~DGD

Here's how it happened people.

After two sets of chromosomes ripped themselves in half and combined with each other (we call this sexual reproduction), one section of one new chromosome consisting of billions of sequences of DNA was "capped" which caused a mutation to occur (like the black was capped to make albinos).

These combine chromosomes, along with all the other goo surrounding them in the mother's single celled egg, started reproducing all by themselves into a completely whole being, with individual organs, a circular system, and an electrical system that kept all those functiong voluntarily and involuntarily... all contained in an outer shell that we all love called it's scales, that happened to be drastically changed to our love and amusement.

All those billions of sequences of DNA and their "caps" were in the perfect order to dictate the inner and outer functionings of our beloved ball pythons.

And of course, ignorant fools like me believe that it's statistically impossible for all that to occur accidentally and didn't just fall into place over time all by itself.

Only an ignorant fool would believe he could take a pocket watch apart, put all the moving parts in a jar, and in time shake it together to make a functioning watch... on a microscopic level... that can reproduce.

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Originally Posted by bait4snake

And of course, ignorant fools like me believe that it's statistically impossible for all that to occur accidentally and didn't just fall into place over time all by itself.

Only an ignorant fool would believe he could take a pocket watch apart, put all the moving parts in a jar, and in time shake it together to make a functioning watch... on a microscopic level... that can reproduce.

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Are you saying what I think you are, that a greater power than chance occurance played a role in creating these mutations?
:salute: