What is better - buy from expo or buy from breeder who ships to you?

I was just wondering if I could have some opinions on this. I am thinking about getting a Rosy Boa (currently have one ball). Is it better to buy from a breeder who ships or to buy it from a local expo and drive the hour or two home?

I ask for two reasons, 1) is one inherently more stressful for the snake than the other, and 2) is one better in terms of quality of animal, health, care, etc. or are they pretty much 1/2 dozen in one and 6 in the other???

Thanks for your opinions.

Edit: I forgot to add, this is given that their are no local or semi-local breeders of the kind of snake you want.

That's kind of hard to qualify Melissa. In some way I'd love to hand pick the snake from a snake show but not all snake shows are full of reputable breeders, some can be quite awful from what I've seen and heard. Then you have the flip side of good breeder versus scammer and how does a newcomer know who is who really when it's all online.

It's just one of those things that as a buyer you just have to be really informed, ask tons of questions whether it's in person or online, scope out the breeders before you buy (most snake shows have a website where vendors are listed), that sort of thing. Adam is the one I believe who always says to shop for the right breeder as much as you shop for the right snake.

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Adam is the one I believe who always says to shop for the right breeder as much as you shop for the right snake.

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Adam is a smart guy. All of the advice I have taken from him has been good to me, including this piece :gj:

Rosie Boas are sweet! Good luck on your quest :)

You can get a good experience and a bad one from all of those options.... it's always best IMO to research your seller if you have not purchased from them before.

Good luck! :)

I always would rather see the snake, see if it's healthy (from the outside) and see if the seller is a good guy in person. You never know what would be shipped to you from a guy from the internet. But then as some people said there are some scammers at expos but if you know that the person has good feedback then... it's good I guess.
That's just my opinion.....

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Originally Posted by BallPythonsRule

You never know what would be shipped to you from a guy from the internet.

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I know, right? You might get something like these shipped to you. I got them from a couple of guys on the internet! :P

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...stonBlush5.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...nzieBlush3.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...PretJune19.jpg

Seriously though - do your homework. There are some people at shows that I would not touch with a 10 foot pole.

When I go to shows, I try to get a list of vendors, and go to Fauna and check out their reputation before the show. How will you get in touch with them after the show if you have a problem, etc.

For local shows, I might have five vendors that I would consider buying from after doing Fauna checks on them.

Same thing for breeders online - do your homework, ask here for feedback, etc.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

I know, right? You might get something like these shipped to you. I got them from a couple of guys on the internet! :P

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...stonBlush5.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...nzieBlush3.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...PretJune19.jpg

Seriously though - do your homework. There are some people at shows that I would not touch with a 10 foot pole.

When I go to shows, I try to get a list of vendors, and go to Fauna and check out their reputation before the show. How will you get in touch with them after the show if you have a problem, etc.

For local shows, I might have five vendors that I would consider buying from after doing Fauna checks on them.

Same thing for breeders online - do your homework, ask here for feedback, etc.

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Agreed, for an online buy i would check the BOI (fauna classifieds), then on the flip side when going to a show im sure you can acquire a listing of vendors at the show then you can check them out on the BOI also .... I hope this helps.

The only thing I would add to this discussion is to not overlook the little guy (or gal). This hobby is growing quickly and there are a lot of new breeders that have some really nice animals...but aren't on the BOI yet. I have purchased a few animals (2 online and 1 at a show) from people that are new (only a few clutches in)...but in speaking with them (or via email), contacting their references (the couple of other people they did business with), seeing pictures of the animals, etc. I decided to go with them and got some really nice animals. Sure there are scammers out there but not everyone without a "rep" is bad.

Just something to keep in mind

Hope this helps,
Sean

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Originally Posted by lord jackel

The only thing I would add to this discussion is to not overlook the little guy (or gal). This hobby is growing quickly and there are a lot of new breeders that have some really nice animals...but aren't on the BOI yet. I have purchased a few animals (2 online and 1 at a show) from people that are new (only a few clutches in)...but in speaking with them (or via email), contacting their references (the couple of other people they did business with), seeing pictures of the animals, etc. I decided to go with them and got some really nice animals. Sure there are scammers out there but not everyone without a "rep" is bad.

Just something to keep in mind

Hope this helps,
Sean

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Great post i agree 100%.:gj:

Thanks, everyone! And beautiful snakes, Robin!

How do I check Fauna/BOI? Do I just google? Sorry, I don't know what it is. :confused:

I know I need to do my research. Do you think it will help me learn the ability to delay gratification???? I want my rosy boa yesterday! ;)

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Originally Posted by MelissaFlipski

How do I check Fauna/BOI? Do I just google? Sorry, I don't know what it is. :confused:

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Here ya go :nerd:

WARNING!! lots-o-trash :O

boi

LOL Cue.

It's not so bad sometimes.

Usually if you are looking for someone and their information, you can find references to them on the BOI.

But be aware, like Cue says, things can get a bit trashy and overboard. Just take everything you see with a grain of salt.

I think it is a useful tool.

I have never not gotten what I expected from online breeders/importers. I request pics of the exact animals to be shipped and pics of both the sire and dam (if applicable) and if the breeder does not comply I don't order.

In my more then 40 purchases in the past 24 months about 50% have been from breeders that shipped to me and 50% from shows/expos. Both have been more then what I have been promised.

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Originally Posted by lord jackel

The only thing I would add to this discussion is to not overlook the little guy (or gal). This hobby is growing quickly and there are a lot of new breeders that have some really nice animals...but aren't on the BOI yet. I have purchased a few animals (2 online and 1 at a show) from people that are new (only a few clutches in)...but in speaking with them (or via email), contacting their references (the couple of other people they did business with), seeing pictures of the animals, etc. I decided to go with them and got some really nice animals. Sure there are scammers out there but not everyone without a "rep" is bad.

Just something to keep in mind

Hope this helps,
Sean

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I really like this post, great JOB! So many people say that you need a breeder with a track record, etc. And they themselves are buying to breed, don't they realize that they will one day have to make that first year of selling happen? Just because a person is new does not mean they don't work hard to deliver what is promised.

Everyone has to start somewhere, to me if you are on a lot of forums, I have your home address, etc and you can provide me pictures of what I am buying and take my phone call, I will give you a shot if you have what I am looking for. If you only deal with "proven breeders", there will be no new businesses that make it.

So yea, when you can and when it makes sense, support the little guy,

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Originally Posted by MelissaFlipski

IIs it better to buy from a breeder who ships or to buy it from a local expo and drive the hour or two home?

I ask for two reasons, 1) is one inherently more stressful for the snake than the other, and 2) is one better in terms of quality of animal, health, care, etc. or are they pretty much 1/2 dozen in one and 6 in the other???

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I would like to add something that I have not seen anyone touch on yet, and that is the stress that is present in each of these situations. I personally believe that the buying the animal from a trusted breeder and having it shipped to you is less stressful for the animal. Here is my reasoning. I just recently did a show in Chicago. I live in New Orleans, LA.

This is a short summary of what my animals went through. (note: this whole event was about as stressful for me as it was my animals, as I spent every waking moment worried about how they were doing). Thursday morning - pack snakes in deli cups and load into cardboard box. Load boxes into SUV and drive for 10 hours. Stop at Motel, and load animals into motel room. Turn up heat in room, and sleep miserably, because I am not a reptile. Friday morning - Load snakes into SUV and drive 3 hours to show. Unload snakes and put in acrylic display cases. Friday night-Sunday afternoon - Keep snakes in small cases, with no thermal gradient, and very little to no heat at night. Sunday afternoon - pack snakes into deli cups and cardboard boxes and load into SUV. Drive 8 hours and stop at motel. Load snakes into motel, and sleep in the heat once again. Monday morning - load snakes into SUV and drive 5 hours to home and put snakes back into nice cozy enclosures with a ready suppply of much needed water.

p.s. I am not against reptile shows, nor anyone who does them. We do shows, and I think they are a great venue for promoting the industry. What I was trying to do was educate/remind some people what goes on behind the scenes, so that you can look at a snake at a show.

Now to the stress that is received from shipping. I sell an animal to a customer in Ohio. I live in New Orleans, LA. I pack snake into snake bag, and place in insulated box with appropriate environmental conditions(i.e. cold pack or hot pack, whichever is needed due to temperatures at shipping end and receiving end). This typically happens at 6:30 pm. Drop off snake at FedEx at 7 pm. Next morning at 10:30 am the snake arrives at it's new home, where the new owner will put it into a nice cozy enclosure with a ready supply of water. Stress time = 16 hours average, vs. about 100 hours average for a show.

I mostly wrote this to show people that are nervous about having snakes shipped to them, that it may not be as bad as you would think, if you think about all of the factors that go into your purchase of an animal.

All of the above is moot if you have a local breeder that you can meet, or go to their facility to pick up a snake. However, that is not available to everyone.

My 5 cents,

Tim, thanks for pointing out the behind the scenes stuff that lots of us may not have thought about.

I did notice that most of the 100+ hours of stress occurs after the show starts. So if you want to purchase at a show, you can reduce the stress on the animal(s) you purchase by getting there when the doors open the first day, and making your choices as quickly as reasonably possible, then taking your purchases straight home.

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Originally Posted by cueball

Here ya go :nerd:

WARNING!! lots-o-trash :O

boi

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How do you do a search for key words? Can you do that?

Also, thanks to Tim for his long explanation about shows. I did think about that, but didn't know all the details. It was enlightening.

I am at the point where I think the biggest difference is that I would get to actually SEE the snake in person that I would be buying at a show. We are going the first day, but not sure we'll arrive when doors open. (Going to NARBC in Chantilly on 10/27.)

I don't even know if any Rosy Boa breeders will be there....! Is there a faster way than clicking on every vendor's website to find out? :confused: I found a few vendors on-line, but none of them will be there.

Thanks.

NARBC will have an absolute ton of vendors. I can bet that there will be at least a few(LLLReptile is one of them) that will have nice CBB Rosies.

What kind of Rosy Boa are you wanting? I used to have a San Felipe and he was a cutie(evil, but cute).

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Originally Posted by MelissaFlipski

Also, thanks to Tim for his long explanation about shows. I did think about that, but didn't know all the details. It was enlightening.

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Never a problem helping out someone with a valid question. I did want to note that there are plusses and minuses to each purchasing scenario, and one was that at the show, you can be a bit more picky as to what you want, because you can put your eyes on the snakes.


Also, after reading my post again, I wanted to add that after all of the work that goes into vending at a show, please show your support, and spend a little money there if you see something that you like.

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Originally Posted by MelissaFlipski

How do you do a search for key words? Can you do that?

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I kinda think you have to register first before being able to use the search function :crazy:

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Originally Posted by muddoc

Also, after reading my post again, I wanted to add that after all of the work that goes into vending at a show, please show your support, and spend a little money there if you see something that you like.

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Excellent point MBM! In order to keep shows going there must be support. This is becoming more and more critical every single year. Keep it going :nerd:

From what I have gathered here, and thanks to all of you for your input, I get the feeling that 1) an advantage to the buyer is to see the snake in person at the show, 2) but it is more advantageous to the snake to have minimal stress - local pickup or shipped overnight, 3) it's always good to support the vendors that put all that work into it, 4) shows are a great way to connect with other reptile lovers, 5) the kids will love it!

So, the whole family is going to the show; the kids will love it! I hope to get a new pet, but will hold out for the right one and buy from a breeder who ships if I don't find what I want there.

That means I need to have a tank set up in advance. Before I do that, I have to convince my husband that this is OK to do (so soon after we got our 1st)... should I do another post for that? :rofl:

Thanks, y'all!
-Melissa

Depends o WHO you are buying from, not where. The integrity of the person I'm dealing with is far more important to me than location. I have even known petshop owners (rare, but they are out there) who kept excellent care of their stock. One I knew years ago was more trustworthy and cared more for his animals than most people I know.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Seriously though - do your homework. There are some people at shows that I would not touch with a 10 foot pole.

When I go to shows, I try to get a list of vendors, and go to Fauna and check out their reputation before the show. How will you get in touch with them after the show if you have a problem, etc.

For local shows, I might have five vendors that I would consider buying from after doing Fauna checks on them.

Same thing for breeders online - do your homework, ask here for feedback, etc.

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Great advice! You said what I was planning on saying so I 2nd your post.

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Originally Posted by MelissaFlipski

From what I have gathered here, and thanks to all of you for your input, I get the feeling that 1) an advantage to the buyer is to see the snake in person at the show, 2) but it is more advantageous to the snake to have minimal stress - local pickup or shipped overnight, 3) it's always good to support the vendors that put all that work into it, 4) shows are a great way to connect with other reptile lovers, 5) the kids will love it!

So, the whole family is going to the show; the kids will love it! I hope to get a new pet, but will hold out for the right one and buy from a breeder who ships if I don't find what I want there.

That means I need to have a tank set up in advance. Before I do that, I have to convince my husband that this is OK to do (so soon after we got our 1st)... should I do another post for that? :rofl:

Thanks, y'all!
-Melissa

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Melissa,
I would say that you have a very good handle on how to make your next purchase. Now, get on that husband, and get the OK.

No idea on the OP's poll.

Da*n you guys for the fauna classifieds. :P I've been reading the Arron VS. Charles Schuck thread for over 4 hours now and that's with skipping ahead. I can't stop.

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Originally Posted by muddoc

Melissa,
I would say that you have a very good handle on how to make your next purchase. Now, get on that husband, and get the OK.

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Yeah, I'm having a hard time with that. He says, "You're an adult." Then when I ask what his opinion is REALLY, he gives me 4 reasons NOT to get another snake. 1) $$$, 2) Time and attention to care for another pet, 3) we are still somewhat struggling with husbandry on our BP (humidity - though that would not be an issue with a Rosy Boa), and 4) we don't even have time to clean the fish tank.

My feeling is that a 2nd snake (and even a 3rd probably) is inevitable. It's just WHEN. So I could go the route of, "If I'm going to do it anyway, why wait?" Or I could go the route of, "Do more research, save up money, and learn delayed gratification."

VERY HARD decision. :sabduel:

Deep inside, I hope he loses it at the expo and HE ends up being the one to get a snake of his choice (he loves the emerald tree boa and the green tree python). :D

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Originally Posted by MelissaFlipski

Yeah, I'm having a hard time with that. He says, "You're an adult." Then when I ask what his opinion is REALLY, he gives me 4 reasons NOT to get another snake. 1) $$$, 2) Time and attention to care for another pet, 3) we are still somewhat struggling with husbandry on our BP (humidity - though that would not be an issue with a Rosy Boa), and 4) we don't even have time to clean the fish tank.

My feeling is that a 2nd snake (and even a 3rd probably) is inevitable. It's just WHEN. So I could go the route of, "If I'm going to do it anyway, why wait?" Or I could go the route of, "Do more research, save up money, and learn delayed gratification."

VERY HARD decision. :sabduel:

Deep inside, I hope he loses it at the expo and HE ends up being the one to get a snake of his choice (he loves the emerald tree boa and the green tree python). :D

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You need to learn to work the trade with your husband. I just picked up another blackheaded python which cost me a new computer armoir with the wife.

The black pastel I brought home this week - a new Dyson vac.

One way or another, I figure she's gonna start to equate snakes with good things.

Nice plan lol. My husband being in the navy leaves me with much time to happily integrate things while he's gone. When he comes home he either doesn't notice until I point them out OR he can't find good arguments on why we should get rid of them... then again I don't usually keep things from him. I warn him before I buy something.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

You need to learn to work the trade with your husband. I just picked up another blackheaded python which cost me a new computer armoir with the wife.

The black pastel I brought home this week - a new Dyson vac.

One way or another, I figure she's gonna start to equate snakes with good things.

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Wow! Don't our little snake-loving brains work alike? I have already used that argument in arrears - um, what about the teleschope with 8" mirror, the motorcycle (for which he promised to quit smoking but picked up the habit again), and the wide-screen hi-def. tv he brought home one day after work without telling me! I even tried mentioning the 3-4 day long fishing trips he took by himself, leaving me behind with the kids.

But he had one very good point. All those things are not LIVING. And changing your mind about having a snake that lives 15+ years is not as simple as with a tv. Also, tv's don't need constant checking on temperatures and humidity like we end up doing with our BP.

I know I wouldn't change my mind - I am in this for good (anyone have information on snake idolization/worship???). But a snake needs more care than material things. But it also provides so much more:

SNAKE THERAPY!!! See you all at the NARBC show today!! :D

Announcing the REAL results, not just the poll results! I got a baby, male Kenyan Sand Boa from BHB at the Chantilly, VA NARBC expo yesterday.

HOWEVER (And DON'T tell my husband this!!! I need time to prepare him... like a year!), I hope to try the other route - a breeder with a good track record who will ship to me - in a year or so. I still want my female Morongo Valley Rosy Boa (last one under California Desert Rosy Boas at: http://www.localityrosys.com/localities.php). I only saw a few Rosys at the expo, and I didn't see ANY Morongos. So I'll go the breeder route for that one - hopefully!

Thanks again everyone for all your great input and for voting!

-Melissa

Melissa,
I just wanted to congratulate you on your new addition, and say that you couldn't have bought a Kenyan from a better breeder. I myself have an Anery Kenyan female from Lori. She loves those little worms.

p.s. Where are the pictures of your new guy?

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Originally Posted by muddoc

Melissa,
I just wanted to congratulate you on your new addition, and say that you couldn't have bought a Kenyan from a better breeder. I myself have an Anery Kenyan female from Lori. She loves those little worms.

p.s. Where are the pictures of your new guy?

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Thanks!

Yes, I knew BHB would be fine since Susan (Daaangconcepts) and Cueball were hanging out in their booth! Pictures coming to a General Boa thread near you soon. (I'm working on it.)

Edit: corrected thread where pictures will be posted!