New Spider Line - hypothetical Q's

I'd like to know people's opinions of of what would/should happen if a new spider line is discovered that doesn't exhibit the wobble head defect. How would this discovery affect the hobby? It would obviously be best to only reproduce the new line in hopes of erradicating the wobblers, but I don't see that ever happening with so many spiders and spider combos already in circulation. What are your thoughts?

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Originally Posted by PythonWallace

I'd like to know people's opinions of of what would/should happen if a new spider line is discovered that doesn't exhibit the wobble head defect. How would this discovery affect the hobby? It would obviously be best to only reproduce the new line in hopes of eradicating the wobblers, but I don't see that ever happening with so many spiders and spider combos already in circulation. What are your thoughts?

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Only if you view spinning a defect and not a trait of the morph would it be the "best to reproduce". How would it affect the hobby? Now that this line of spiders has been established and made its way in to the common everyday collection. I don't think it would effect the market at all.

I personally don't think of it as a defect but rather a character trait for the morph.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Only if you view spinning a defect and not a trait of the morph would it be the "best to reproduce". How would it affect the hobby? Now that this line of spiders has been established and made its way in to the common everyday collection. I don't think it would effect the market at all.

I personally don't think of it as a defect but rather a character trait for the morph.

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Agreed. My spider wobbles but i dont think he it affects him in any other way besides the fact that he acts wierd sometimes. But he eats fine and is just as healthy as the rest of my collection. I wouldnt have him any other way.

People haven't yet begun trying to breed the trait out--IE, selecting spiders with less or no wobble to breed, and culling the bad wobblers from their breeding programs. There are only a few breeders who are actually doing that. Money is a factor. Unfortunately, I doubt the wobble is going to get a LOT of attention until the price of spiders comes down to the price of pastels. No one wants to give up hundreds or even thousands of dollars a year by retiring a spider breeder due to wobble.

There are people stating that they have spiders that don't wobble that consistantly produce non-wobbling offspring. The insistance that this trait is linked to the spider pattern gene itself might be wishful thinking on the part of those who own wobblers.
On the other hand, the insistance of those that it's a defect not linked to the spider gene might be wishful thinking on the part of non-wobbler owners who hope to get a premium price for their offspring in the future.
We really will just have to work with our own animals, and wait and see what happens.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

People haven't yet begun trying to breed the trait out--IE, selecting spiders with less or no wobble to breed, and culling the bad wobblers from their breeding programs. There are only a few breeders who are actually doing that. Money is a factor. Unfortunately, I doubt the wobble is going to get a LOT of attention until the price of spiders comes down to the price of pastels. No one wants to give up hundreds or even thousands of dollars a year by retiring a spider breeder due to wobble.

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Wobbling or spinning as its known has and still does get loads of attention more so than some of the other less well known genetic traits other morphs can exhibit. To say that "People haven't yet begun trying to breed the trait out--IE, selecting spiders with less or no wobble to breed, and culling the bad wobblers from their breeding programs." is in short untrue. Since the spider first hit the market in '99 breeders that produce most of the balls in the market to day have been doing just that. I wont get in to the "All spiders spin " debate there are some great threads on that here. But it has been proven that non-spinners can produce train wrecks of offspring and Visa Versa.

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There are people stating that they have spiders that don't wobble that consistently produce non-wobbling offspring. The insistence that this trait is linked to the spider pattern gene itself might be wishful thinking on the part of those who own wobblers.
On the other hand, the insistence of those that it's a defect not linked to the spider gene might be wishful thinking on the part of non-wobbler owners who hope to get a premium price for their offspring in the future.
We really will just have to work with our own animals, and wait and see what happens.

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Not sure where your going with this bit. But yes some breeders will say all spiders spin Some say "no I have spiders that don't" this argument is an on going debate among breeders.

Bottom line if the possibility of producing a spinner or two scares you don't breed spiders or spider combos.

Me personally I love spiders and will own ever spider combo you can think up one day

Oh, don't get me wrong, I love spiders too, and if it turns out they all wobble, that doesn't lessen my liking for them.
I'm just saying, because we DO have people saying "None of my spiders wobble, and none of their offspring do either", it's hard to be sure what the truth is, yet, regarding the wobble.
We don't yet know if it's inextricably linked to the spider gene. Some people have been trying to get rid of it--but a (probably) larger number aren't trying.
What's more, I'd bet anything there are a proportion of breeders who are trying to rid the wobble from their own lines by holding back only non-wobblers, but are still breeding their wobble spiders to produce offspring for sale.

My personal opinion on it is that it might be possible to minimize the wobbling, even if it's tied to the spider gene itself, but that's going to take a while. If it's not tied to the spider gene, we should know that soon enough.

We're kind of getting off topic. I'm asking what you all think would happen if a new line of spider was found in Africa and it, along with it's offspring didn't show any symptoms of the wobbllies. It's unimportant who's selectively breeding the current line, for the sake of this thread.

I also love spiders, and mine definately shows a slight wobble sometimes. I am still breeding him, as I believe from what I've read that it isn't seperable from the spider gene in captivity today. I still see it as a defect if it is in fact a nerological disorder. They can eat and reproduce fine, but I'm pretty sure the derma ball can also thrive and reproduce, and I agree with a lot of other people that the derma ball is a defect. If there was a new line of spider that didn't have any "effect" I would definately replace my current breeder with one from the new line. I think a lot of people would, but there are so many people who have so much invested in spider projects that I don't think that it would be feasable for many to just retire the old line.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Only if you view spinning a defect and not a trait of the morph would it be the "best to reproduce". How would it affect the hobby? Now that this line of spiders has been established and made its way in to the common everyday collection. I don't think it would effect the market at all.

I personally don't think of it as a defect but rather a character trait for the morph.

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I think that's a rather strange perspective personally. I consider different colors, patterns, and in some cases, behaviors, a trait. Spinning seems to be some defect in fundamental motor skills. How is that a trait? The words themselves have different conotations. "Trait" indicates something desirable. I sincerely doubt anyone wants a clutch of really bad spinners.

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Originally Posted by PythonWallace

We're kind of getting off topic. I'm asking what you all think would happen if a new line of spider was found in Africa and it, along with it's offspring didn't show any symptoms of the wobbllies. It's unimportant who's selectively breeding the current line, for the sake of this thread.

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I think it wouldn't change the market itself, in as much, as make people wonder why. Since all spiders spin to a degree, I would guess we'd see a lot of cross breeding between the two lines to determine if we can get rid of it, or potentially produce a Super Spider.

Given that all spiders show it to a degree, I'd have to assume that the new line was a slightly different allele, without the negative side effects the current line has. That being said, I'm not foolish enough to believe everyone is going to stop breeding the current line. First, because the opinion that this is a "trait" and not a defect is wide spread, and second, because there are far too many people interested in the financial aspects of this industry to stop producing the current line.

Hey Wolf, can't help but notice, but why do you have such a cynical view on those breeding spiders? You're making a lot of assumptions and generalizations that could offend a lot of breeders,

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No one wants to give up hundreds or even thousands of dollars a year by retiring a spider breeder due to wobble.

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I'd bet anything there are a proportion of breeders who are trying to rid the wobble from their own lines by holding back only non-wobblers, but are still breeding their wobble spiders to produce offspring for sale.

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Where are you getting this from? You make it sound like the majority of spider out there for sale are defective and the people selling them are trying to stick it to the buyers...I'm sorry, but while some if not all spiders might exhibit some funky behavior, a very small percentage of spiders produces out there spin to such a degree that would prohibit selling them.

Do you own a spider?

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Originally Posted by jhall1468

I think that's a rather strange perspective personally. I consider different colors, patterns, and in some cases, behaviors, a trait. Spinning seems to be some defect in fundamental motor skills. How is that a trait? The words themselves have different connotations. "Trait" indicates something desirable. I sincerely doubt anyone wants a clutch of really bad spinners.

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TRAIT
2 a: a distinguishing quality (as of personal character) <i.e curiosity is one of her notable traits> b: an inherited characteristic

so by definition spinning is a trait maybe not a desirable one but a trait none the less. To me defect would tend to lean toward something that inhibits the animals ability to exist and function completely. Spinners: Eat, Drink, Grow, Shed, Slither, Tongue flick, Breed ect.
Since we do not yet know whether it is neurologically related, muscularity related or a combination of the break down in commutation between the brain and the muscles, or simply an equilibrium issue, to label it as a birth defect would be jumping the gun some what.

As for what a non spinner would do to the market I doubt it would have much effect as spinning as become excepted by most.

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

Hey Wolf, can't help but notice, but why do you have such a cynical view on those breeding spiders? You're making a lot of assumptions and generalizations that could offend a lot of breeders,

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Only if it's not true. Do you disagree with what I said? I have a cynical view of human beings in general, not of people breeding spiders specifically. Humans have a remarkable ability to convince themselves of things that are in their favor.

Yes, I do have a spider. He has a minor tremor, but doesn't spin or headroll. Yes, I am planning on breeding him next year. He's het for chocolate hypo, and I'll be breeding him back to his dam, whom I also own, to see if I can get some chocolate hypo spiders.

What if, say lessers all had only one eye. They would still eat, shed, grow and breed, but wouldn't that still be considered a defect? Not to start an argument, but just because the wobble head is becoming accepted, I still see it as a flaw. I would personally start over with the new hypothetical line so I wouldn't have to worry about the flaw being incorporated into my offspring for generations. I doubt a new line without the wobble head effect will ever be discovered anyway.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Only if it's not true. Do you disagree with what I said? I have a cynical view of human beings in general, not of people breeding spiders specifically. Humans have a remarkable ability to convince themselves of things that are in their favor.

Yes, I do have a spider. He has a minor tremor, but doesn't spin or headroll. Yes, I am planning on breeding him next year. He's het for chocolate hypo, and I'll be breeding him back to his dam, whom I also own, to see if I can get some chocolate hypo spiders.

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I do disagree with that you said. How do you know what everyone producing and selling spiders is doing or breeding? I'm not trying to pick on you, but your comments are bordering on the absurd. I'm sorry that you have a cynical view of human being in general, but that doesn't give you the right to go and say that everyone is out to produce and sell tweaked spiders...

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Originally Posted by PythonWallace

I would personally start over with the new hypothetical line so I wouldn't have to worry about the flaw being incorporated into my offspring for generations. I doubt a new line without the wobble head effect will ever be discovered anyway.

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I was searching around some of the older threads, but couldn't find a post that Mendal's Balls made relating to this. It requires a somewhat advanced understanding of genetics, but in a nutshell, what he said is that genes are located on a string and passed on in that way. Think of it like a package deal. If the spider gene lands, then so does of bunch of other genetic information, including the gene or genes that cause spinning in spiders. Some normals exhibit signs of spinning as well, so you can't say that spinning is exclusive to spiders either.

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

I was searching around some of the older threads, but couldn't find a post that Mendal's Balls made relating to this. It requires a somewhat advanced understanding of genetics, but in a nutshell, what he said is that genes are located on a string and passed on in that way. Think of it like a package deal. If the spider gene lands, then so does of bunch of other genetic information, including the gene or genes that cause spinning in spiders. Some normals exhibit signs of spinning as well, so you can't say that spinning is exclusive to spiders either.

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I understand all this. That's why I don't think this new hypothetical wobble-free spider will ever be found. I think that there will probably be new spider lines in the years to come, but I agree that it will probably also have the wobble gene. And I've heard of normals with the wobble, too. Do you think people are quicker to pull these from breeding projects, being that they are normal and not an expensive morph?

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Originally Posted by PythonWallace

I think that there will probably be new spider lines in the years to come, but I agree that it will probably also have the wobble gene.

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There has only ever been one spider line, produced from the original WC spider male. At least that's all I've found so far, if I'm incorrect please someone correct me.

Spiderballs are kind of like Pug nosed dogs. Pugs are noted for having problems breathing. Some are huffing and puffing all the time, some are barely noticable, but all other things being equal, none of them breath as easily as their long nosed brethren. (I've never seen a pug nosed racing dog, have you?) Some people won't buy pugs for this reason and others overlook it because they love their cute little pushed in faces. It's just something that comes with the territory. If you don't want a dog that tends to have breathing problems, don't buy a pug... If the idea of a wobbly headed snake freaks you out, don't buy a spider. Thousands of other people are enjoying theirs though, wobbles and all, so why make a big deal out of it?


Mark

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

TRAIT
2 a: a distinguishing quality (as of personal character) <i.e curiosity is one of her notable traits> b: an inherited characteristic

so by definition spinning is a trait maybe not a desirable one but a trait none the less.

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Sorry, but "a distinguishing quality" has a VERY positive connotation. Defect does not... that to me makes it clear that spinning is a defect, not a quality.

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To me defect would tend to lean toward something that inhibits the animals ability to exist and function completely. Spinners: Eat, Drink, Grow, Shed, Slither, Tongue flick, Breed ect.

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DEFECT
a shortcoming, fault, or imperfection

While defects can have degrees certainly, I think it would be relatively easy to qualify seemingly uncontrollable movement as a defect.

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Since we do not yet know whether it is neurologically related, muscularity related or a combination of the break down in commutation between the brain and the muscles, or simply an equilibrium issue, to label it as a birth defect would be jumping the gun some what.

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We can say effects 100% of all animals with a specific allele. It's clearly a genetic defect, working in combination with some other genes (which are responsible for the degree of spinning). How can you call it anything BUT a genetic defect? We can tie it to one gene 100% of the time.

Now whether that genetic defect is neurological or not is certainly up for debate. But, by definition, it qualifies as a genetic defect.

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

Some normals exhibit signs of spinning as well, so you can't say that spinning is exclusive to spiders either.

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That's certainly true. This defect seems to be activated by the Spider allele all of the time, but it can also become active without it, although that's far more rare.

But it's a good topic none the less. As someone else mentioned, Spiders with virtually no spinning can throw ultra-spinning offspring and vice versa. How much of it is environmental is up for debate. I think this says it all:

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Originally Posted by MarkS

If the idea of a wobbly headed snake freaks you out, don't buy a spider.

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At the end of the day, Spiders will be spinners. So if you aren't comfortable with that, best to avoid them.

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Originally Posted by Holbeird

There has only ever been one spider line, produced from the original WC spider male. At least that's all I've found so far, if I'm incorrect please someone correct me.

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I know that there is currently only one spider line that came from an imported male, I was just saying that I assume more wild spiders will be found in the years to come. Every base morph began with a single line, but eventually some of them end up being found again, starting a new line. I would guess that another wild spider will be found one day.

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I know that there is currently only one spider line that came from an imported male, I was just saying that I assume more wild spiders will be found in the years to come. Every base morph began with a single line, but eventually some of them end up being found again, starting a new line. I would guess that another wild spider will be found one day.

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The thing is, if it's the same mutation, it would probably have the same characteristics that the current spiders have, including the wobbling. If it was a different mutation that mearly looked like a spider, then it wouldn't actually be a spider.

Mark

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Originally Posted by MarkS

The thing is, if it's the same mutation, it would probably have the same characteristics that the current spiders have, including the wobbling. If it was a different mutation that mearly looked like a spider, then it wouldn't actually be a spider.

Mark

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I know, I said the exact same thing in two separate posts in this thread already.

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I know, I said the exact same thing in two separate posts in this thread already.

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Haha, sorry about that. I should pay closer attention.