The Far of Future of morphs

Here is a question/ thought pattern that just entered my head so i thought i'd share. I'm always browsing the genetics here and I see the envelope always being pushed. There are certain levels of morphs in my opinion. Those that a regular joeshmo (AKA. me) can have. These morphs are those such as pastels maybe spiders or mojaves. Then the next level is a callaboration of these with other morphs. Then finally the extreme combinations only yet to beformed suchas a Pastel x spider x yellow belly het for albino/ het pied. Lol.

But, i wonder what the ultimate outcome of this extensive breeding will be. Will it be an extremely dillute snake? Possibly an all brown or white snake with little or no pattern? Scientist believe that a possible outcome of human migration and evolution in a few thousand years could be a single color race were all of our traits combine together to form a brownish human being. Could this be the eventual outcome of pushing the limits of Ball Python breeding?

i will one day produce an invisible snake..... just watch lol

IMHO, I think what is happening to humans is actually the opposite of what breeding morphs is doing to Balls.

Humans are combining their diverse traits in more and more ways. That means the offspring have more genetic diversity within them. Humans looking more alike and less diverse is a symptom of that.

Balls are bred selectively to weed out certain traits and bring forward others (usually recessive genes). It's almost like creating new snake races instead of combining them, as we are doing more and more in the human community.

Does this make sense?

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Originally Posted by Het4Something

i will one day produce an invisible snake..... just watch lol

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Or how about breeding snakes with the largest spurs to each other until they have legs again (at least rear ones).

im 50% to my goal of a monkey snake... all my snakes exhibit a long prehensile tail like body. ears is the next step then of course fur. but i digress, i dont think we will ever get them down to the point where they all look the same since breeders are selective breeding. i mean sure some out there might be putting 1001 different genes in snakes (NERD im looking at you :D)

by breeding so diversly we are also spreading bad traits about balls, such as a spider doing a head roll

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Originally Posted by Het4Something

by breeding so diversly we are also spreading bad traits about balls, such as a spider doing a head roll

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What is that? :confused: Thanks.

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Originally Posted by MelissaFlipski

What is that? :confused: Thanks.

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the head roll is when the spider will roll his head in a circular motion, bending it backwards.... kinda hard to explain, anyone have any pics or vids of this?? its usually due to inbreeding.

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Originally Posted by Het4Something

its usually due to inbreeding.

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No it's not, they could'nt possibly be more outbred ;)

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Originally Posted by Het4Something

i will one day produce an invisible snake..... just watch lol

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hahahahahahaha

It's called wobble head,
Here is a video.
Now you know what it looks like :)

as a footnote to the spider headroll aka head wobble, i have two... and no wobble there. and im sure many breeders will tell you the same thing.

if a snake has "the wobble" im sure most respectable breeders would not breed it out, as to avoid having negative traits such as this passed on.


and as far as i know, the wobble is one of the few defects that are known at this point.

:(

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Originally Posted by zx92027xz

hahahahahahaha

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problem is if i do produce it.... i wont even know i have it :(

I don't believe the wobble head is due to inbreeding as spiders are dominate. If their genes were recessive I could see this a bit more, but as you can breed a spider to a normal and get spiders, they are less likely to be inbred in my opinion.

Also where someone said most respectable breeders would choose not to breed to not pass on the trait. One of the issues with spiders is that you can have two parent spiders that have a HORRIBLE problem with spinning or wobbling and the babies be fine, then you can take two seemingly non-spinning parents and breed and get spiders that spin horribly.

It's simply an issue with the spider gene. Some choose not to breed them, some do. It's personally don't think it's a major issue and will not choose to leave spiders out of my breeding plans, especially since most that I know who are choosing to leave out spiders, do so by instead supplementing pinstripes, which I don't like as much.

I don't have enough experience to decide if ALL spiders have this, or just some. There is a theory around that all spiders have this to some extent or another. Here's Adam from 8 Ball Pythons take on the subject: http://forum.8ballpythons.com/blog/?p=5

Either way, if you like them, breed them, if not, don't. Personally I just don't see it as a big enough reason not to use them in my collection.

My only question for Adam and some of the other big breeders. Has it been noted that the spinning in spiders is also apparent in the crosses (aka the different bees and such?) I've looked this up and haven't been able to find any information on this.

It is my personal opinion that the spinning in spiders is a lined trait with the pattern mutation. I plan on using 'spinning spiders' as a possible thesis for my grad paper in the next set of years, and I hope to find out more than "it's related to the spider trait". I want to know how and why they exhibit this behavior, if it's a neurological disorder, or some sort of 'inner ear' problem. But I would definately read Adam's blog on this subject. It's very informative.

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Originally Posted by Bright202

It's called wobble head,
Here is a video.
Now you know what it looks like :)

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HAHA finaly i know what the wobbles is all about. A picture is worth a thousand words@! Then i guess a video is worth a million?

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Originally Posted by Het4Something

i will one day produce an invisible snake..... just watch lol

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Watch out for my cyborg bp!!! Im lame, sorry guys/gals.

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Originally Posted by zx92027xz

as a footnote to the spider headroll aka head wobble, i have two... and no wobble there. and im sure many breeders will tell you the same thing.

if a snake has "the wobble" im sure most respectable breeders would not breed it out, as to avoid having negative traits such as this passed on.


and as far as i know, the wobble is one of the few defects that are known at this point.

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From what ive herd. If it could have been bred out it would have by now. Some that do it have normal spider babies. Some that dont do it can have messed up babies. So dont think it will be able to be bred out. I have no clue what it is caused from or why they do it. I dont even own a spider. This is just what ive read and also been told that it might be only this line or that line.

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Originally Posted by Holbeird

My only question for Adam and some of the other big breeders. Has it been noted that the spinning in spiders is also apparent in the crosses (aka the different bees and such?) I've looked this up and haven't been able to find any information on this.

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There is another thread on here somewhere. Im pretty sure it says in there that it has been proved to be passed on to crosses. Ive even read somewhere that some of the normal spider sibs have signs of spinning or wobble. Ill have to see if i can find the link to the thread. I think it was in one called spinning and shakes in spiders. Something like that.

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Originally Posted by ama1997

This is just what ive read and also been told that it might be only this line or that line.

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Not true ;) There are no different Spider "lines"

There has only ever been one WC Spider brought in, meaning that every single Spider and Spider combination out there, is a direct descendant of the 1 and only original Spider.

EDIT: To answer Holbeird, I'm not a big breeder... but yes, the Spider crosses such as Bees etc. exhibit these traits as well.

I don't mean to high jack the thread, although this question does go along with the topic. What do you guys as a community think about the future of the Leucistic (sp?) balls? There are many different ways to make them and they are still pretty expensive. Also from what I have read, the BEL's and other Lucy's are all white because their skin cannot retain pigment. This means all you will ever get is more white snakes, if my understanding is correct. Even when crossing with other morphs they will still be white.

Are Lucy's the end of the line for those morphs? You can still use mojaves, lessers, butters in combos, but what about Lucy's? They are nice pets, but if they only make white snakes instead of combos, would that discourage breeders from breeding them?

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Originally Posted by Brimstone111888

I don't mean to high jack the thread, although this question does go along with the topic. What do you guys as a community think about the future of the Leucistic (sp?) balls? There are many different ways to make them and they are still pretty expensive. Also from what I have read, the BEL's and other Lucy's are all white because their skin cannot retain pigment. This means all you will ever get is more white snakes, if my understanding is correct. Even when crossing with other morphs they will still be white.

Are Lucy's the end of the line for those morphs? You can still use mojaves, lessers, butters in combos, but what about Lucy's? They are nice pets, but if they only make white snakes instead of combos, would that discourage breeders from breeding them?

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I think that the leucistic morph is generally thought of as the "clean slate" as far as pattern and color go. You could add other genes into it, but once you've got a lucy, throwing in X mutation into it doesn't change its appearance in a significant way.

I think it was last year or the year before that NERD produced "Vivid," which was a BEL with something else in the mix as well and this snake turned out to be 'different' than the other lucys. I'm not sure how they'd be able to tell for sure, but maybe Kara can elaborate on that.

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

I'm not sure how they'd be able to tell for sure, but maybe Kara can elaborate on that.

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Id like to here more myself....

I'd like to hear more on that as well :)