No live fuzzies- Try mice or f/t?

When I was in my planning mode, I checked with the local pet stores (2 big ones, 2 family owned ones) and they all carry live mice in varying sizes and all the different frozen feeders.

Now I have my BP and she had been eating well on fuzzy rats.

I've called all the places around me and none have live fuzzy rats. One place does breed them and will sell them, but they don't have any at this time.

Should I go the live mouse route (weanling?), or try f/t?

Personally, I was hoping to stick with live because the thought of mousecicals in the freezer turns my stomach. But I want to do what's best for my BP.

Thanks!

when will the breeder be getting some.... my motto is once you go rat you dont go back lol, if its a week or two its worth the wait.

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Originally Posted by Het4Something

when will the breeder be getting some.... my motto is once you go rat you dont go back lol, if its a week or two its worth the wait.

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I asked, and he said something along the lines of "they'll be here whenever the rats do the things they need to do". lol Do you think I should try frozen rats? :confuzd::weirdface:

If she's used to live, you'd be very lucky if she took f/t on the first try, although some do.
I'd try a live mouse.

So I have one vote for mouse, and one vote for wait.

Anyone else?

Thanks!

Well, my baby BPs switch between mice and rat pups without any issues at all. Usually problems only occur when you try to get them to take a food for the first time. After that, they'll accept anything they've eaten before. At least, mine will.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Well, my baby BPs switch between mice and rat pups without any issues at all. Usually problems only occur when you try to get them to take a food for the first time. After that, they'll accept anything they've eaten before. At least, mine will.

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Are you serious?

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Well, my baby BPs switch between mice and rat pups without any issues at all. Usually problems only occur when you try to get them to take a food for the first time. After that, they'll accept anything they've eaten before. At least, mine will.

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Wow, lucky. I've heard that BPs can be very picky, and I don't want to mess up a good eater by mixing thing up.

I think I'll wait a few more days so she can settle in, and then I'll call the rat guy to see if he has any babies. If not, I'll go for a weanling mouse and f/t, and see what she'll eat.

I haven't had that problem. Any pickiness is upon first introduction of a food. I've never had one refuse something it's eaten before outside of a stress situation like being moved, and then it always goes back to eating it later.

I like to mix up what they're fed, I figure this KEEPS them from getting picky. My roomate's ball python has had live mice, pre-killed mice, frozen-thawed mice, and frozen-thawed rats. It was a struggle to get him over to the f/t mice, but after that he took the f/t rat on the first try, and now he eats anything he's offered.
Both my big girls took f/t rats today, I'm so pleased. They insisted on live for their first meal with me, but now they're on track with f/t. :)

My girl ate a rat first try no problem. And frozen thawed first try nbo problem and hasn't looked back.

Sometimes you'll get lucky like I have. But I'd hate to go from mice then to rats. Then back to mice until I got some more right sized rats.

Good luck to you which ever route you decide to take.

I was going to say that my girl will go between mice and rats, but I know not everyone's snakes will do that. My Lilly is a very stout eater, and hasn't ever missed a meal. Personally I would try the live mice, although I guess since she was already on rats, the chance of her eating a f/t rat is about the same as her going to mice. I would say that it's more what you want to do. If you don't like the f/t being in the freezer, I would suggest sticking with live.

I don't know that I was much help...sorry about that! :P

she dosent need to eat every week, she can go months (not reccomended at all) without eating, but try to stick to one food, how would u feel if u had a lobster dinner and then your next meal was a cracker??? also, try to find another place to supply you, somewhere that readily has food.

So, is the rat the lobster, or is the mouse the lobster? I'm kind of not understanding your point there.

As for the lobster and the cracker, that's like...happened. And I don't remember minding at the time. lol

Now, I personally would be horribly bored eating the same thing all the time, even if it were lobster. But, I'm not a snake.
I still maintain, if you want to avoid the snake getting hooked on just one type of food, then varying what it eats will accomplish that.
A snake used to eating different types of prey shouldn't suddenly start refusing any of them.

A snake can go weeks without food, sure...but why should it have to when there's food available for it?
If the snake is used to eating several types of prey, then in situations where your supply of one is gone, but you have the other--just like the situation described here--there's no problem, and the snake still gets to eat.
I don't understand why it should have to go hungry.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

I don't understand why it should have to go hungry.

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That's an interesting question. Is it your belief that snakes experience "hunger" in the exact same way warm blooded animals (animals that must burn massive amounts of calories in order to maintain their own body temperature) do?

-adam

They certainly appear to be more active and alert, more prone to strike at movement, and unsurprisingly, they seem to be searching for food--this tends to happen a few days after they defecate.
I would call that 'hungry', yep.
I'd be curious to see any research that shows brain activity in a hungry reptile is significantly different from that of a hungry mammal. It might reveal clues about the reptile brain that could help us in keeping the animals. Would you happen to have any links, or perhaps a title and author of a research paper on it?

LMMFAO! at this !! I love it...

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

They certainly appear to be more active and alert, more prone to strike at movement, and unsurprisingly, they seem to be searching for food--this tends to happen a few days after they defecate.
I would call that 'hungry', yep.

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Or, you could call "more active and alert" - 'awake', "more prone to strike at movement" - 'stressed', and "searching for food" - 'exploring their environment'. I would call that a "ball python", yep.

Just sayin. :D :sweeet: ;)

-adam

So, a couple days after they defecate, they become stressed? (Just trying to fit this into context, here...)

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

So, a couple days after they defecate, they become stressed? (Just trying to fit this into context, here...)

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I wouldn't even begin to speculate about what kinds of problems your animals are having ... All I know (for whatever you feel that is worth) is that I have 700+ ball pythons and the only time any of them are striking at anything is on feeding day when I'm dropping small live rats into their enclosures (or when nervous hatchlings having their tubs cleaned are striking to defend themselves) ... Maybe I'm just feeding them well enough to keep them from ever becoming "hungry"? :confuzd:

-adam

lol, I probably should have clarified, the ball pythons aren't the ones striking at things. The conversation had moved to the differences between hunger in mammals versus snakes--you asked if I thought it was the same. I gave observations on behavioral changes in snakes that seem indicative of hunger.
My African house snakes get strikey when they are hungry. The big female actually becomes a menace a day or so before feeding time. The rest of the time, they're fine, so it seems directly related to hunger.
I've seen this behavior in other colubrids as well.
The ball pythons just get more interested in their surroundings, and take on the 'hunting pose', but I've not had one of them strike at me, at least not so far. I'm certainly more cautious around them at this time.

So, the answer is, snakes appear to undergo behavioral changes that facilitate their finding food. Knowing whether or not hunger is uncomfortable for them would require brain scans, which probably haven't been done. The fact that their behavior does change is indication enough for me that they are, in fact, hungry.

Some people have a strong aversion to anthropomorphization. In my opinion, it can sometimes lead to going too far in the opposite direction. They are vertebrate animals, and they do experience a limited range of emotions, as well as typical physical sensations. Far enough back down the line, our ancestors were reptiles. We have inherited some things from them...if it's not broke, nature doesn't usually fix it. It strikes me as an odd notion to imply that reptiles don't experience hunger. I can't think of any logical reason to assume that they don't. Hunger evolved to stimulate animals to eat.

Having 700+ ball pythons, how much time do you spend getting to know the typical behaviors and personalities of each individual snake? Do your snakes not show any behavioral changes in the time period after they defecate, and before you feed them again? Do you know each of them well enough to be sure?

Adam I'm lookin forward to getting one of your 700 balls. Sounds like your balls are very friendly, and soft.. hearted.

Edit - nevermind

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Having 700+ ball pythons, how much time do you spend getting to know the typical behaviors and personalities of each individual snake? Do your snakes not show any behavioral changes in the time period after they defecate, and before you feed them again? Do you know each of them well enough to be sure?

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I'm not sure I see your point here. Normally when research is done it's looking for patterns of behaviour, a broad overview of what a certain species will do under a certain set of circumstances. You don't get a proper picture of anything if you focus on an individual animal's reaction as it may be a one time anomaly or some pattern specific to that one creature or that one circumstance. You would of course make note of this difference but in the end knowing the overall information is far more productive than one single snakes reaction to one single set of circumstances I would think.

As far as those other species of snakes go, I'll have to take your word for it ... over the last 25+ years, I've kept many different species of snakes, but I don't consider myself to be experienced enough in all of them to speak broadly about their behavior .... ball pythons on the other hand are a different story .... I feel quite comfortable stating that I KNOW ball pythons based on the real world hands on experience of working with them in large numbers for well over a decade now.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Having 700+ ball pythons, how much time do you spend getting to know the typical behaviors and personalities of each individual snake? Do your snakes not show any behavioral changes in the time period after they defecate, and before you feed them again? Do you know each of them well enough to be sure?

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I guarantee that I spend more time with my ball pythons in any given week than you do researching ball pythons via google. This is my job and as a small business owner that is having great success with a rapidly growing a business I work at least 80 - 100 hours a week ... almost every waking hour is spent doing something related to my business and at night when I sleep, I dream about my animals ... by far, the vast majority of my work each week is spent actually handling ball pythons ... feeding them, cleaning them, taking pictures of them, examining them, and sometimes just sitting back with some of them on my desk or in my lap to enjoy one of the things that I am most passionate about in life.

I know my snakes ... some of them for over 15 years now ... I may not know a lot and things outside of the scope of ball pythons, but my ball pythons are one thing I know with 100% confidence .... I challenge many of the people that visit me to take any snake from any where in my facility and show it to me ... and I'm able to tell them what room it came from, what rack within that room, what tub from within that rack, what it ate last, who it's mother and father are/were, at least one little interesting story related to it's life, and how it will behave if set down on the floor and left alone (defensive, curious, shy, etc).

I see absolutely no signs of behavioral "changes" in the time period after they defecate and before I feed them again ... I can say with 100% certainty that I know each and every one of them well enough to be sure.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I see absolutely no signs of behavioral "changes" in the time period after they defecate and before I feed them again ... I can say with 100% certainty that I know each and every one of them well enough to be sure.

-adam

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after my snakes defecate they are very tame... my female who is usually very agressive when eating, spends most of her time around my neck. they still come out of their cages and hang out with me even if they havent eaten in weeks. so i agree, i see no behavioral changes......

LOL

While I love this scientific exporation into the brains of snakes, could we please get back to the original question, please?

If no live fuzzies are available, would it be better to try live mice or f/t rats?

Thanks!

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Originally Posted by Kiramay

LOL

While I love this scientific exporation into the brains of snakes, could we please get back to the original question, please?

If no live fuzzies are available, would it be better to try live mice or f/t rats?

Thanks!

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LOL...what all the back and forth really says is that nutritionally it doesn't matter which you choose to feed.

You might have an easier time feeding a mouse since your snake is used to live...some snakes don't switch to F/T quickly. On the other hand if long term you want them on F/T then now would be a good time to start making the change.

In the end it is up to you and won't make any difference what you decide to do.

Hope this helps,
Sean

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Originally Posted by lord jackel

LOL...what all the back and forth really says is that nutritionally it doesn't matter which you choose to feed.

You might have an easier time feeding a mouse since your snake is used to live...some snakes don't switch to F/T quickly. On the other hand if long term you want them on F/T then now would be a good time to start making the change.

In the end it is up to you and won't make any difference what you decide to do.

Hope this helps,
Sean

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It does, thank you. So pretty much its up to me, and then pray she eats.

I am going to assume that fuzzies don't move around much since they're still babies. Right? So, while I had planned to stay with live, now might be a good time to switch to f/t, rather then have my BP get used to chasing her prey, and then try to switch.

And a little OT, I looked up a few rat breeders within an hour drive or so to see if I could get live fuzzies from them.... lets just say I won't be getting any babies from them. lol "Murderer...!"

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Originally Posted by Kiramay

I am going to assume that fuzzies don't move around much since they're still babies. Right? So, while I had planned to stay with live, now might be a good time to switch to f/t, rather then have my BP get used to chasing her prey, and then try to switch.

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They don't chase their prey, they ambush hunt - wait for it to wander by and then strike. Fuzzies can move remarkably fast, actually.

Just buy whatever is easiest for you to obtain and what the snake will eat. If the snake won't eat the f/t, then buy the live mice. If she'll eat f/t, then get some mice or some rats, it really doesn't matter. Prey is prey, and the weight is mainly all you're looking at. I have 31 snakes right now(plus or minus some as some are always coming or going, haha), and they all eat live mice. Everyone is fat, happy and healthy, not to mention safe.

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Originally Posted by Kiramay

It does, thank you. So pretty much its up to me, and then pray she eats.

I am going to assume that fuzzies don't move around much since they're still babies. Right? So, while I had planned to stay with live, now might be a good time to switch to f/t, rather then have my BP get used to chasing her prey, and then try to switch.

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Just so you know Balls are ambush predators so they won't "chase" the mouse/rat around (they will follow them but it isn't going to be a cat/mouse chase). But movement is important in them locating the prey...so even with F/T it may be necessary to do the "Rat Zombie" Dance. In which case you need a set of long tongs to "dance" the rat around in front of the snake so it thinks the rat is alive and will then strike, constrict and eat it.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I see absolutely no signs of behavioral "changes" in the time period after they defecate and before I feed them again ... I can say with 100% certainty that I know each and every one of them well enough to be sure.

-adam

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Ignoring the digs, as you seemed to take some sort of offense at the questions, I'll take your word for it on the answer. How often do you feed them? This might actually BE related to the fact that you feed smaller prey items frequently, while I feed slightly larger ones a bit less frequently. It's possible that, as you suggested, your animals aren't really getting hungry.

I think the OP's question has been fairly well answered. Mice and f/t rats are both good choices, and if the python does't accept one, you can always offer the other--it's not crucial to offer an unvarying diet, so the snake doesn't have to wait an unknown length of time for its next meal.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

you seemed to take some sort of offense at the questions

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Offense? LOL ... hardly ... If you take the time to look, you'll find that I have been a member here for over 4 years ... and spent that time answering all kinds of questions ... giving my point of view ... never telling people what they should or should not do, but instead sharing my experience, telling people what I do for my animals, and occasionally expressing my belief in and my passion for how I specifically do things ... I've always been an open book and willing to share whenever asked ... anything ... I have a pretty decent reputation around these parts as a result. ;)

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

I'll take your word for it on the answer.

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Well, you certainly don't have to just take my word for it ... If you'd ever like to take a trip and come visit my facility I'd be happy to show you first hand so that you can see with your own eyes.

-adam

[QUOTE=WingedWolfPsion] This might actually BE related to the fact that you feed smaller prey items frequently, while I feed slightly larger ones a bit less frequently. QUOTE]

I feed my male a adult mouse every six days- and a med. rat to my female every six days. Im not sure what everyone else does, but I was told that even if you feed larger pray you still feed the same as when you used to- like every 5, 6, 7 ect. days...

For adult BPs, I feed a medium rat every 7 to 14 days depending on their weight, unless it's the height of the breeding season--I move down to small rats every 7 days. Babies get fed something as big around as they are every 5 days, yearlings every 7 days.
My big females are currently eating a medium rat every 10 days. I'll be pairing them as soon as they're out of quarantine, they're looking great for it in terms of optimal weight and apparent health. I'll be tracking their weight closely, as they don't need to gain or lose any at this point.

How often to feed depends on the size of the prey, and size of the snake--and even on the snake's individual metabolism.