Frosted rats

I went to pull some of my older frozen food out of another freezer only to find that they weren't sealed as well as the rest, and some of the rats have a pretty decent amount of ice on them. I don't think it's safe to feed my snakes...is there any other alternative to just throwing them out?

Nope...dumb them. Freezer burn can be dangerous as the moisture that allowed it to happen can harbor bacteria that will grow almost immediately upon being thawed...and most of the meat will be worthless from a food value point of view.

how can you prevent freezer burn?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by reediculous

how can you prevent freezer burn?

---

This goes for any meat...but freezer burn is caused by excess moisture. This moisture usually comes from the meat itself (but can also come from ambient air in the storage bag). So the best way to avoid it is to vacuum seal all your meat to remove all excess moisture. Once opened you should use good freezer zip lock bags and burp them (you can use your mouth to suck the air out).

You should package all meat in single serving packages - when you pull only a few mice out of a larger bag you have more air and have allowed the remaining mice to thaw somewhat (even slightly can lead to freezer burn). package your feeders by serving size (so if you need 5 per week put 5 in a single bag)

Other ways to get freezer burn is to allow your food to slightly thaw (thawing pulls the moisture out of the meat) so opening the freezer door for too long, too much excess air in the freezer or bag all can lead to freezer burn. Open and shut the door quickly.

Hope this helps.

There is no evidence to suggest that freezer burn is dangerous, but it can alter the flavor of food (or a rat, presumeably). I'd thaw the rats quickly in warm water, and see if the snakes will still accept them. They are safe to eat, as long as they haven't been in the freezer for longer than 6 months.

You have to vaccuum seal food in order to prevent freezer burn entirely. Freezer burn occurs when water from inside the food migrates to the outside, dehydrating it and often forming ice crystals on the outside as it freezes. This is what alters the flavor.

Water on the outside of a prey item usually occurs when you use warm water to thaw it out--I've had plastic bags leak often. But a rat only takes maybe 30 or 40 minutes to completely thaw, so there isn't enough time for a dangerous level of bacteria to grow.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

There is no evidence to suggest that freezer burn is dangerous, .

---

So you are saying that the water that causes freezer burn cannot contain bacteria that might be dangerous? (since this is my point about being dangerous). Since the water can only move out of the meat if it is partially thawed I am not sure how you can make your statement?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

There is no evidence to suggest that freezer burn is dangerous, but it can alter the flavor of food (or a rat, presumeably). I'd thaw the rats quickly in warm water, and see if the snakes will still accept them. They are safe to eat, as long as they haven't been in the freezer for longer than 6 months.

---

You're seriously suggesting that someone go ahead and feed freezer burned prey to their snakes? Wow!

The moisture that migrates out of food during freezer burn contains no more bacteria than the moisture that remains in frozen food that isn't freezer burned.

And yes, if the snakes will accept them, the freezer-burned food is perfectly safe. That goes for people food, too. It's safe to eat. Look it up if you don't believe me, lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lord jackel

So the best way to avoid it is to vacuum seal all your meat to remove all excess moisture. Once opened you should use good freezer zip lock bags and burp them (you can use your mouth to suck the air out).

---

my mom puts a straw into a ziplock bag with food in it, closes the bag around the straw, sucks the air out and then quickly pulls out the straw and snaps the hole closed. i gotta tell you though--i just can't see myself doing that with a bag of rats...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

The moisture that migrates out of food during freezer burn contains no more bacteria than the moisture that remains in frozen food that isn't freezer burned.

---

I disagree with this...it migrated out due to it being thawed (not frozen any longer) by increasing its temp naturally more bacteria would form (grow). Then add 30+ minutes of room temp thaw time and you have the potential for a bacterial issue. Since you don't know what the rodent was exposed to or carrying you don't know what bacteria was frozen with the animal...why would you advocate this risk just save a buck?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mlededee

my mom puts a straw into a ziplock bag with food in it, closes the bag around the straw, sucks the air out and then quickly pulls out the straw and snaps the hole closed. i gotta tell you though--i just can't see myself doing that with a bag of rats...

---

LOL I do that too...just figured everyone would get too grossed out if I said so. :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

And yes, if the snakes will accept them, the freezer-burned food is perfectly safe. That goes for people food, too. It's safe to eat. Look it up if you don't believe me, lol

---

And just as full of nutrients as non-freezer burned? No thank you. I won't eat freezer-burned food, and if I were feeding frozen, I wouldn't offer it to my snakes.

Moisture sublimates out of the frozen food, it's not thawing.

It is safe. Again, let your fingers do the walking through Google. lol

It's not missing any nutrients, either! It's only missing moisture. It's partially dehydrated, not spoiled. It's oxidized (which causes the flavor alteration), but it has nothing to do with bacterial growth. You will not suffer any ill effects from eating freezer burned food.

A bit about frozen food:
http://www.foodproductdesign.com/articles/0197CS.html

For the record, I thaw rodents in hot tap water, as quickly as possible. There is little chance for bacteria to grow. I think setting them on the counter until they reach room temperature is more likely to result in minor spoilage, and as I understand it, we've been recommended not to thaw our OWN food that way, either. (It should be thawed in a refrigerator).
A dip in hot water does the trick just fine, and then I have a warm prey item for the snakes, which they seem to appreciate.

I've heard people talk about the prey falling apart more readily this way, but in my experience that has everything to do with the quality of the prey before it was frozen, and whether it had ever been thawed before, rather than with the warm water dip. I have noticed that twice-frozen rodents certainly fall apart.
When I've frozen rodents I raised myself, I put them directly into the freezer as soon as they're dead. They thaw out intact and sturdy in hot water.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

It's not missing any nutrients, either! It's only missing moisture. It's partially dehydrated, not spoiled. It's oxidized (which causes the flavor alteration)

---

This is a contridiction - dehydrated means missing nutrients what do you think comes out with the moisture? Oxidation destroys nutrients.

Why do you think the moisture comes out of the meat in the first place? It is caused by a temp difference pulling the moisture out (ie. thawing - yes not completely but enough to cause a change in the makeup of the meat)

Quote:

---

For the record, I thaw rodents in hot tap water, as quickly as possible. There is little chance for bacteria to grow.

---

Your first post in this thread said it takes 30-40 mintues to thaw a rodent...this IS enough time for bacteria to grow.

WingedWolf's science is correct...freezer burn can happen on any improperly sealed meat, and it's nothing to do with thawing or bacteria. The contents of the package are perfectly safe, albeit unappetizing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freezer_burn

so what does everyone do with a Frozen rat shipment............I have been just keeping all the rats in a zip lock bag and thawing as i needed them...........I never really have any problems with burn. do you guys really put each rat in a separate zip lock?

ACTUALLY... freezer burn does create a "less healthy" meal than a non freezer burned meal. The reason all comes down to the oxidation. The oxidation process turns the fats and oils into peroxides and aldehyde's, that even though may not cause immediate damage to the snake if eaten, has been attributed to causing cholesterol problems in the long run... Once again the old saying goes, you are what you eat. If what you (or your snake eats) eats an unhealthy meal, you (or your snake) will not be as well off, than say, you (or your snake) ate a healthy meal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

the freezer-burned food is perfectly safe. That goes for people food, too. It's safe to eat. Look it up if you don't believe me, lol

---

Hmm.. I would definately get fired if I told my boss that I had served people any food that had freezer burn...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gooseman

ACTUALLY... freezer burn does create a "less healthy" meal than a non freezer burned meal. The reason all comes down to the oxidation. The oxidation process turns the fats and oils into peroxides and aldehyde's, that even though may not cause immediate damage to the snake if eaten, has been attributed to causing cholesterol problems in the long run... Once again the old saying goes, you are what you eat. If what you (or your snake eats) eats an unhealthy meal, you (or your snake) will not be as well off, than say, you (or your snake) ate a healthy meal.

---

Aha, an actual point...can you cite a reference for that? And are you sure that it translates over into reptilian physiology, or is it based on mammal studies?
It would make a good argument for not making a habit of feeding freezer burned items, but still doesn't seem a valid reason to chuck the rodents in the garbage.
Come to think of it...does anyone know of a case of arteriosclerosis in snakes? I found one instance of it, but it was attributed to metastisized cancer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Aha, an actual point...can you cite a reference for that? And are you sure that it translates over into reptilian physiology, or is it based on mammal studies?
It would make a good argument for not making a habit of feeding freezer burned items, but still doesn't seem a valid reason to chuck the rodents in the garbage.
Come to think of it...does anyone know of a case of arteriosclerosis in snakes? I found one instance of it, but it was attributed to metastisized cancer.

---

Here you go! This is only one site I found... but it's a state university so I'll let them do the talking and quote them...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Washington State University

Freezer burn may contribute to fats becoming rancid. All fats and oils will become rancid given enough exposure to air (or sunlight and heat). If there is a putrid "off" odor, discard the food. Eating rancid food won't make you sick, but it may be unhealthy in the long run. Rancid fat contains chemicals called peroxides and aldehydes that can damage cells and may even encourage cholesterol to clog arteries.

---

http://pan.co.yakima.wa.us/wsuext/f&...ezersavvy.html

Well, there it is--it won't kill you, but it's not very healthy, and you don't want to eat it long-term.

Alas, the most exposed part of the rat is going to be its skin with cutaneous and subcutaneous fats. So I guess it depends on whether you're up to doing a bit of surgery, or would rather just throw it out, if you want to avoid the oxidized fats.

Remember though the long term affects on you or me occasionally eating a slightly freezer burnt pork chop may be one thing, as we eat a wide variety of items - the long term affects on a snake existing solely on that one prey item which is now not a top quality food source, may be quite another. Since most everyone that has f/t prey in their freezer receives them in a bag of 10 or so per bag, and if that bag has been opened and the prey then becomes freezer burnt, it's only common sense that you'd be using quite a number of them either with one snake repeatedly or across your entire collection.

Snakes digest far differently than we do, in a more intensive manner which utilizes complete prey without as much waste product as humans produce. Any loss of quality in the prey is a very direct loss for the snake. Personally, I'd far rather toss a lower quality prey item, learn my lesson about how to properly store frozen prey to avoid freezer burn and stick with feeding the best prey possible to my snakes. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by frankykeno

Remember though the long term affects on you or me occasionally eating a slightly freezer burnt pork chop may be one thing, as we eat a wide variety of items - the long term affects on a snake existing solely on that one prey item which is now not a top quality food source, may be quite another. Since most everyone that has f/t prey in their freezer receives them in a bag of 10 or so per bag, and if that bag has been opened and the prey then becomes freezer burnt, it's only common sense that you'd be using quite a number of them either with one snake repeatedly or across your entire collection.

Snakes digest far differently than we do, in a more intensive manner which utilizes complete prey without as much waste product as humans produce. Any loss of quality in the prey is a very direct loss for the snake. Personally, I'd far rather toss a lower quality prey item, learn my lesson about how to properly store frozen prey to avoid freezer burn and stick with feeding the best prey possible to my snakes. :)

---

Excellent post Jo! :rockon:

Since I no longer have the space to breed my own mice, when I go to the store to make my weekly pick-up, I look for the most healthy mice they got. The attendants have learned to hate me because, well, I won't just take the first mouse they get ahold of. It goes without saying that the healthier the mouse, the healthier the meal. Which means, bigger, stronger healthier snakes to me.

Lots of good information here guys. I think i'd be more comfortable getting rid of them...but rather than just throwing them away, is there any other predator animal that I could give these to?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nathanledet

Lots of good information here guys. I think i'd be more comfortable getting rid of them...but rather than just throwing them away, is there any other predator animal that I could give these to?

---

Personally Nate... the only predator animals I would give them to are the ants and the gnats that'll find it in the garbage can. Yes, it's a sad to have uselessly killed a mouse, however... if it's not in tip-top shape, it's not going in my animals. However, that's just one man's opinion.

Uh....such as? lol
A vulture? :D
Any sort of animal that is primarily a scavenger shouldn't have issues from slightly oxidized rats.

I have fed minor frezer burnt rodents to my snakes occasionally for the past 3-4 years with NO problems at all. Do what you want, toss em, feed em, eat em your self, just sharing my oppinion and experiences.

OMG a 4 to 5 $$$ rat.... i'd toss and just get a new one. its not like you "freezer burned" a package of 50. 1=throw away, get another one.