Breeding for attitude rather than morph..

I am just wondering if there are any breeders out there that selectively breed BPs for reasons other than morphs. I think it'd be neat to see people pick out the friendliest ball pythons around and breed em out. Who knows.. maybe we'd get ball pythons with very outgoing personalities similar to boas. Just a thought..

I had this same idea and I think it would be a cool project. Since I love my snake's personalities far more than their markings, this is the kind of breeding that would really interest me.

I think there are some unique challenges. Unlike morphs, the results are hard to quantify. This would make breeding selection and pricing very difficult. There is also a significant chance that genetics can't guarantee a certain personality profile. I believe it probably has a large impact, though.

At the very least, such a venture would have to produce fairly dramatic results to compensate for the fact that its very subjective. For the same reason, I think it would be very important to stick with it and build a brand name that people trust.

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Originally Posted by chz

the friendliest ball pythons

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maybe its just me, but ive never met a mean ball python. They are only agressive when feeding, breeding, or scared. But breeding snakes for personality, if possible, and if proven, could be revolutionary for the market.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

At the very least, such a venture would have to produce fairly dramatic results to compensate for the fact that its very subjective.

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How much more dramatic could it possibly be? Ball pythons for the most part, are known to be gentle, calm, and non-aggressive. I've got 17 non-aggressive "friendly" ball pythons (except on feeding day when I expect them to be the chainsaws that they are), every last one of them.

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Originally Posted by Het4Something

But breeding snakes for personality, if possible, and if proven, could be revolutionary for the market.

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See above - but personalities are individual. Look at human families for example, with multiple siblings, same shared parents (assuming these are families without step parents), all different personalities in the same family. But I believe personality is made up of genetics AND environmental influences.

I'd venture to guess that there might be something to that idea. We've bred cats and dogs for those qualities.. probably will just take longer with reptiles. Now to see a dwarf ball python would be interesting. hhmmm... ::wanders off in thought::

Being non-aggressive doesn't mean they're personable. That'd be like saying my deaf, blind, and mute grandfather is personable just because he's gentle and calm. We all know ball pythons are extremely docile most of the time, but their personalities can vary greatly.

I'm not saying ball pythons aren't personable, I'm just saying some are more so than others. And to breed out the lower stress bps would be a great project, being as stress has been linked to genetics.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

But I believe personality is made up of genetics AND environmental influences.

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Agreed.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

How much more dramatic could it possibly be? Ball pythons for the most part, are known to be gentle, calm, and non-aggressive. I've got 17 non-aggressive "friendly" ball pythons (except on feeding day when I expect them to be the chainsaws that they are), every last one of them.

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Less "paranoid", less likely to stress, more outgoing. All kind of the same thing, really. The strong self-preservation instincts don't serve them as well in a domesticated setting. Its a similar situation with dogs and cats, as Ladydragon pointed out.

To my point, consider that most of the main husbandry points that get stressed around here are heavily based on (or influenced by) the fact that BP's are easily stressed and can't be trusted to choose a more healthy place over a more hidden place.

Of course, it only makes logical sense in my opinion. I might not eject an aggressive, overly nervous snake from being bred (or one that isn't a regular and predictable feeder), but I wouldn't be holding back any of their offspring, either.
It's an attitude that's a long time in coming in herpetoculture, I think. People are so focused on the snakes' appearance, they tend to ignore their personalities. Snakes can certainly be selected to be docile, outgoing rather than shy, good feeders, and good breeders. We've selected personality traits in dog and cat breeds to an incredible degree, there's no reason we can't do the same with reptiles. It's TREMENDOUSLY to their benefit if we do so. Captive lines that really THRIVE in captivity mean animals that are 'happy' and healthy, rather than stressed and miserable in the conditions keepers provide. We aren't captive breeding these animals in order to preserve their species--they are pets, and they and their offspring will always be pets. If we can make them better pets, then it's to our credit to do so.
I wonder how many generations it takes to truly domesticate a reptile? I've often wondered if corn snakes and leopard geckos truly are domesticated animals by this point. Certainly they've been selected for hardiness in captivity just as a matter of course. The long captive lines bear little resemblence to their wild relatives--particularly the leopard geckos.
Koi are certainly domesticated.
Society finches are domesticated. I think leopard geckos belong on the list.

Imagine a future where most ball pythons hatch out of the egg already fairly 'tame' and sociable, eat f/t rats as a first meal, and breed reliably.
Why not? No reason we can't accomplish it.

One of the issues with trying to breed for temperment in snakes is their reptilian brain. Basically you've got what you've got to work with that way. The reptilian brain does not have a developed forebrain where emotions, memory, (language in humans), bonding/pack behaviour, etc. is developed in mammals.

Without a reasonable amount of forebrain it's pretty unlikely you can breed for things that are specific to that part of the brain.

We've been selective breeding canines since about the 16th century and recent studies are showing that they have a very unique brain and genetic profile that is quite elastic and responsive to those changes. Snakes, crocs and other reptiles just aren't like this, being less hardwired to accept change through evolution or human intervention. Simply put, I don't think it's possible to breed for temperment in a creature with the brain structure of a snake.

It took thousands of years to domesticate dogs, some would aruge that cats aren't entirely domesticated, they revert very easily back to their wild instincts when not tamed (feral).


Snakes are not puppies or kittens, they're snakes. Why can't people just appreciate them for being exactly what they are?

Ball pythons have been bred in captivity for just a matter of decades, not thousands of years. One of the reasons they are so popular are for the very traits you say you want to try to breed, so I still don't see how much more improvement you think you'll get.

Of course babies are going to be less tame - you're a predator in their reptilian brain for goodness sakes! I've got snakes in my collection that were very defensive as babies, and at 2 years old are calm, "personable" and relaxed.

Sounds like throwing the baby out with the bath water if they show the least bit of aggression as a baby and you don't plan to hold them back the ones that act like a frightened snake should.

You hold back the ones that show less defensiveness than their siblings, that's all. There's no point in being so aggressive in your criteria, not until you've been working at it for a while. Of course you aren't going to produce affectionate snakes. What you aim to produce are less defensive, calmer snakes.

Snakes ARE individuals. They do have different personalities. Much of personality is genetic, even in humans, let alone in something with a brain as primitive as a snake's. A snake's less complex brain is why it should be even more effective to breed for temperment, because its experiences are likely to have less impact on its personality than its genetics.

In the long run, it's in the best interests of the snakes if they are NOT nervous, frightened, or overly defensive. Read up on the domestication of foxes done as an experiment in Russia. It takes remarkably few generations to completely change an animal's typical behavior.

Of course, as it turns out, humans didn't actually domesticate dogs in the first place--it happened through natural selection processes that humans happened to be part of through their reactions, rather than deliberate actions. Dogs evolved to be our companions because that niche was open--a scavenger that can safely live among us, and even parasitize us through our emotions. Said in the kindest possible way, as I do like dogs. :) They're INCREDIBLY well-adapted animals...absolutely ingenius. They instinctively know how to make us go 'awww' and feed them. There's an illusion that 'stray dogs' are unfortunate escaped pets, when in reality they live in virtually every human community on the planet...feral dogs aren't strays, they're living in their natural environment. They evolved to be right there, eating our garbage. I have a lot of respect for dogs, they have most people fooled. <lol>

It's far too late to plea for snakes being left as they are--the color and pattern morphs prove that people aren't inclined to do that at all. Why not make captivity more pleasant for them by breeding them to adapt to it more readily--and making them into more pleasant pets for people?

Take problem feeders, for example. How many folks do you think have a hatchling that refuses to feed, and winds up having to be assist-fed. Later, it starts eating on its own fine...and then winds up in a breeding program?

I think it's particularly difficult for people to give up a female ball python, no matter what her temperment or background is.

Why should we pass on genes from a snake that is miserable in captivity? All of it descendents will be captives, too, after all. It has far less to do with making them more pleasant pets than it does with making them healthier captives with lower stress levels, more consistant feeding habits, and more consistant breeding habits.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

You hold back the ones that show less defensiveness than their siblings, that's all. There's no point in being so aggressive in your criteria, not until you've been working at it for a while. Of course you aren't going to produce affectionate snakes. What you aim to produce are less defensive, calmer snakes.

Snakes ARE individuals. They do have different personalities. Much of personality is genetic, even in humans, let alone in something with a brain as primitive as a snake's. A snake's less complex brain is why it should be even more effective to breed for temperment, because its experiences are likely to have less impact on its personality than its genetics.

In the long run, it's in the best interests of the snakes if they are NOT nervous, frightened, or overly defensive. Read up on the domestication of foxes done as an experiment in Russia. It takes remarkably few generations to completely change an animal's typical behavior.

Of course, as it turns out, humans didn't actually domesticate dogs in the first place--it happened through natural selection processes that humans happened to be part of through their reactions, rather than deliberate actions. Dogs evolved to be our companions because that niche was open--a scavenger that can safely live among us, and even parasitize us through our emotions. Said in the kindest possible way, as I do like dogs. :) They're INCREDIBLY well-adapted animals...absolutely ingenius. They instinctively know how to make us go 'awww' and feed them. There's an illusion that 'stray dogs' are unfortunate escaped pets, when in reality they live in virtually every human community on the planet...feral dogs aren't strays, they're living in their natural environment. They evolved to be right there, eating our garbage. I have a lot of respect for dogs, they have most people fooled. <lol>

It's far too late to plea for snakes being left as they are--the color and pattern morphs prove that people aren't inclined to do that at all. Why not make captivity more pleasant for them by breeding them to adapt to it more readily--and making them into more pleasant pets for people?

Take problem feeders, for example. How many folks do you think have a hatchling that refuses to feed, and winds up having to be assist-fed. Later, it starts eating on its own fine...and then winds up in a breeding program?

I think it's particularly difficult for people to give up a female ball python, no matter what her temperment or background is.

Why should we pass on genes from a snake that is miserable in captivity? All of it descendents will be captives, too, after all. It has far less to do with making them more pleasant pets than it does with making them healthier captives with lower stress levels, more consistant feeding habits, and more consistant breeding habits.

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What?!?!?!


I really do not understand anything you say...you seem to talk in circles alot.

:confused:

It seems rather selfish to continue allowing these reptiles to be wild in genealogy. Virtually every animal that we eat or keep as pets is domesticated. Chickens are domesticated. If a chicken can be domesticated, a snake sure as hell can.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_animal

Saying "why can't we just accept them as they are?" is a contradiction in itself. If we accepted them as they were, they'd be in the wild, living more freely and NATURALLY as they were meant to be. But being as we are keeping them for domestic purposes, it seems only fair to the snake that they be domesticated..

Also taken from wiki...



According to evolutionary biologist Jared Diamond, animal species must meet six criteria in order to be considered for domestication:

1. Flexible diet — Creatures that are willing to consume a wide variety of food sources and can live off less cumulative food from the food pyramid (such as corn or wheat) are less expensive to keep in captivity. Most carnivores can only be fed meat, which requires the expenditure of many herbivores.

2. Reasonably fast growth rate — Fast maturity rate compared to the human life span allows breeding intervention and makes the animal useful within an acceptable duration of caretaking. Large animals such as elephants require many years before they reach a useful size.

3. Ability to be bred in captivity — Creatures that are reluctant to breed when kept in captivity do not produce useful offspring, and instead are limited to capture in their wild state. Creatures such as the panda and cheetah are difficult to breed in captivity.

4. Pleasant disposition — Large creatures that are aggressive toward humans are dangerous to keep in captivity. The African buffalo has an unpredictable nature and is highly dangerous to humans. Although similar to domesticated pigs in many ways, American peccaries and Africa's warthogs and bushpigs are also dangerous in captivity.

5. Temperament which makes it unlikely to panic — A creature with a nervous disposition is difficult to keep in captivity as they will attempt to flee whenever they are startled. The gazelle is very flighty and it has a powerful leap that allows it to escape an enclosed pen.

6. Modifiable social hierarchy — Social creatures that recognize a hierarchy of dominance can be raised to recognize a human as its pack leader. Bighorn sheep cannot be herded because they lack a dominance hierarchy, whilst antelopes and giant forest hogs are territorial when breeding and cannot be maintained in crowded enclosures in captivity.

Well I got off track I suppose. Someone mentioned domestication, and I went along with it before reading in between the lines. It goes back to the OP, can they be breed for personality traits? I believe that although the stress issues can be breed out of these wonderful snakes, that basically everything else will remain the same.

I still don't see the arguments making much sense. It's a SNAKE! Let it be a snake! It will never be a pack animal. If you want an pet to act like a puppy, get a puppy.


And Wolf, you cannot compare domestication of mammals to domestication of reptiles.

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Why should we pass on genes from a snake that is miserable in captivity? All of it descendents will be captives, too, after all. It has far less to do with making them more pleasant pets than it does with making them healthier captives with lower stress levels, more consistant feeding habits, and more consistant breeding habits.

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How exactly do you determine if it's miserable in captivity? I'd even be so bold as to say that 90% of ball pythons in captivity that are "problem" feeders are problem feeders because of poor husbandry.

I've got four in my collection right now that were surrended to the pet store, because they were problem feeders. They eat every single week for me.

All of my captive hatched snakes eat every week without fail. Would you say that these "wild" animals are any more miserable than those that are bred in captivity?

Who's going to set the criteria for this new "breed" of friendly ball pythons? What's the standard?

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Who's going to set the criteria for this new "breed" of friendly ball pythons? What's the standard?

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Wagging his tail maybe :8:

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Originally Posted by rabernet

I still don't see the arguments making much sense. It's a SNAKE! Let it be a snake! It will never be a pack animal. If you want an pet to act like a puppy, get a puppy.


And Wolf, you cannot compare domestication of mammals to domestication of reptiles.

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Agreed!!! I think ball pythons are awesome just the way they are :sunny: . I dont think they will ever change, EVER....

I already asked this somewhere else, but has anyone heard of breeding BPs for their size? I think it would be cool to have a line that got 7-8 feet... could it be done?

I think perhaps "domestication" is too strong a word since it implies a tighter integration into the household than would ever be possible with a snake.

But, I don't think that means that the idea behind the OP is a bad one. IMO, selecting breeders based on some sort of "pet friendly" criteria is a good one and it's got nothing to do with wanting BP's to be something they are not. Its more a matter of taking something more than coloring into account. For example, snakes with a calmer and more confident disposition are more likely to do well in captivity. To me, that seems like a win for everybody.

Breeding for size would be more straightforward since its easier to measure. But, I guess like breeding for attitude, it all rests on how much money you can make out of it. As far as I can tell, its the expensive morphs that are the bread and butter of the breeders.

You can't compare the domestication of mammals with the domestication of reptiles....why not?
Did anyone say they wanted to turn ball pythons into puppies? lol

No, we have been talking about breeding ball pythons for confident, non-aggressive dispositions and good feeding and breeding instincts. I really fail to see how this led to the silliness of ball pythons that wag their tails when greeted.

Of course, my females wag their tail when they see a male, but...

It also amuses me that cats fail most of the criteria for animals that are good prospects for domestication. I suspect that information is either outdated, or underinformed. You can domesticate just about anything, if you want to--just a matter of how long it takes. Then again, it does say those are criteria for identifying good prospects for domestication, not that they're REQUIREMENTS for it.

Foxes. Solitary animals with nervous dispositions. Carnivores.
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/542604/domesticated_fox/
Domesticated during an experiment in Russia. The attempt was to create a strain of fox that would do well in captive situations in fur farms. The results were unexpected. They didn't get their fur farm foxes, as the domesticated foxes' coats and tails developed aberrant traits that made them unsuitable for the fur industry.

Information on the experiment: http://reactor-core.org/taming-foxes.html

Now, of course the changes that occur in reptiles during domestication will not be the same as those that occur in mammals. For one thing, pedomorphism is generally undesireable, as juvenile herps are more nervous and high strung than adults. So, in breeding for calmness, my GUESS will be that we'll see animals actually reaching maturity WITH an adult temperment, faster. People already select for this, without even thinking about it. The animals that grow and mature fastest, and produce the largest clutches, are the ones they keep in their collection as breeders.

Animal instinctive behavior is genetic. When you select for more or less of certain instinctive behavors, you can make substantial changes over time. This is no different in reptiles than it is in any other animal.
By reducing hatchlings' inherent nervousness and defensiveness, and reducing the overall predator avoidance instincts in captive snakes, we can breed snakes that make calmer and less stressed pets. We might even be able to breed the 'prey pickiness' out of ball pythons--select for animals that will eat whatever prey is offered to them, and over time you should have fewer and fewer picky eaters.

I would go so far as to say that if you want to create a ball python that will wag its tail when it sees/smells a human, you could! It would take a long time, and the REASON it does so would be worlds apart from the reason a dog does it, but that could in fact be bred into them.
It's possible because tail-wagging is already a natural ball python behavior. It's just a matter of selecting for it to occur when you want it to, over time.
I'm not saying you should. ;D

In my own collection, I'll be going for good, adaptable, reliable feeders, calm and unstressed dispositions, and good breeders.
Others may breed strictly for looks.
Unless you are breeding pure wild strain normal ball pythons without regard to their disposition, appearance, or adaptation to captivity, you are breeding to change the animals.
Even then, the animals that do worst in captivity will naturally eliminate themselves from breeding programs over time.

Again...your post made me dizzy.

I think my head is going to spin off into another dimension!

:eek:

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

We might even be able to breed the 'prey pickiness' out of ball pythons--select for animals that will eat whatever prey is offered to them, and over time you should have fewer and fewer picky eaters.

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Pickiness in ball pythons is more directly related to husbandry issues than a genetic pre-disposition. I haven't met a "picky" ball python yet. Every "problem eater" I've adopted has eaten within the first two weeks with me and reliably from then on out. There were animals labeled as "picky eaters" as reasons for their surrender to the pet store.

Why do you suppose their prior owners couldn't get them to eat? Most likely, their husbandry was not correct, and they did not provide proper housing.

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Originally Posted by jeffnme

Again...your post made me dizzy.

I think my head is going to spin off into another dimension!

:eek:

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LOL - I tend to just skim! :cool:

Of course feeding problems aren't always related to husbandry. I have snakes that will eat anything they're given, and snakes that take weeks and weeks to convert over to f/t, and the husbandry is correct (and the same) for them all.

Ask any of the big breeders about snakes that go inexplicably off their feed for periods of time. Or hatchlings that only eat when they feel like it once in a while.
It happens.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

I really fail to see how this led to the silliness of ball pythons that wag their tails when greeted.

Of course, my females wag their tail when they see a male, but...

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I wasn't aware you were experienced in breeding ball pythons to the point of knowing what they do when they "see a male". Are yours locking up already this year?

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Ask any of the big breeders about snakes that go inexplicably off their feed for periods of time. Or hatchlings that only eat when they feel like it once in a while.
It happens.

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What percentage does it "happen" to? A very small number in comparison to the number of animals in captivity. Again -a picky ball python is the anomoly when husbandry is correct.

You haven't been here long enough to see the numerous instances on this forum when an owner complains of a picky ball python, when advised of husbandry changes to make and then does it, that then has a reliable feeder. But you're also still relatively new to keeping ball pythons yourself, aren't you? If I remember your intro post correctly.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

What percentage does it "happen" to? A very small number in comparison to the number of animals in captivity. Again -a picky ball python is the anomoly when husbandry is correct.

You haven't been here long enough to see the numerous instances on this forum when an owner complains of a picky ball python, when advised of husbandry changes to make and then does it, that then has a reliable feeder. But you're also still relatively new to keeping ball pythons yourself, aren't you? If I remember your intro post correctly.

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I'm not quite sure I see what you are arguing against Robin. If I understand you correctly, I think you are generally saying that you don't think BP's are that bad and therefore don't need this consideration when breeding. In my opinion, this isn't about disappointment in BP's as snakes. This is about breeding to reinforce traits that improve domestication.

I recall a thread a while back regarding a similarly abstract discussion regarding personality. I mentioned something about how, at a very primitive level, my snake might appreciate the fact that I clean out his hide because he can't go in it after he defacates. You proudly told me your snakes will go in there no matter what. After that, somebody else replied that theirs will "wallow" in it. Personally, my snakes absolutely will not hang out anywhere near their faeces and I see never having to clean it off of them as a plus.

In several other ways, my BP has shown very low tendency to get "stressed". In fact, when I first joined here I knew only how my snake behaved and got into alot of trouble because I was critisizing alot of recommendations as being way to conservative. Eventually, I picked up that snakes vary and I shouldn't assume that everybody's is like mine. (And, I'm not saying he never gets stressed. He stays in his hide most of the time and doesn't like being held for extended periods.)

My question to you is do you think that genetics plays any role in these behaviors? If genetics play even a 50% role then what is wrong with breeding to select the more desirable ones?

I think these "more desireable traits" that have been mentioned already exist in the vast majority of ball pythons, so I really don't see that there's going to be some dramatic difference that's going to make them more desirable than those already being bred and those already being imported. :confuzd:

I'm not sure there's this huge market for ball pythons that are "potty trained" not to go in their hide once defectated in. Or ball pythons that act anything other than a ball python.

I'm not talking about potty training. I'm saying that lots of issues around keeping BPs are based on the fact that they stress easily. The recommendation that you make your warm and cool hides identical is based directly on the fact that BPs will choose a better hiding spot over keeping themselves properly thermoregulated. If this is an aberrant behavior then why is it so prevalently recommended?

Also, despite the popularity of this site, only a small fraction of BP owners ever see it. That is even more reason to breed BPs that are more forgiving to husbandry mistakes.

Perhaps it wouldn't be helpful but I think it would. I think anything that helps snakes better integrate into domestic life is a plus for their species.

Bearheart, you brought up a good point. My bp Thor naturally likes his cool side, where ambient temps are around 76, and surface temps are about 81 or 82. Things like this should be taken into consideration when breeding snakes. A lot of people use glass tanks rather than racks, so it'd be nice to have bps that inherently like cooler temps.

Wolf also made a good point, and I laughed at loud at the tail wagging comment. People automatically make the assumption that we are talking about breeding the ball python out of the ball python. The slight changes that could take place over a few generations of breeding could be significant enough to make them easier to take care of, which COULD result in a significant reduction of sick snakes. Also, making them more personable could reduce the amount of kids giving away bps on craigslist/classifieds/message boards due to bites or other "non-personable" traits.

I do agree with Robin that the differences between bps can be very slight and at times unnoticeable, but the fact remains that there are "personality" traits that could make one bp more appealing than another.

My intro post said I was getting back into reptiles after a hiatus, and that the last thing I was focusing on before the hiatus was leopard geckos. I have said that I've been working with reptiles since I was a teenager.
Beyond that, you'll just have to take what I say at face value on its own merit. :D There is some fun in watching people make assumptions based on biases, though.

I'm getting lockups from my AHS, not my ball pythons yet. Bit early in the season, and some of my females are still in quarantine. Plus, I'm going to be trying something new. I'm getting my hands on a humidifier, and I'm going to try spiking the humidity to 80 or 90% in December for at least a week, and see if I notice any behavioral changes as a result. The talk about barometric pressure changes and the rainy season got me thinking. I don't want to spray the bins that much, but if I raise the humidity in the entire room, I shouldn't get the dampness or condensation.

I think it will be cool, a decade or two down the road, to be able to say my ball pythons have been bred for hardiness, adaptability, temperment, ease of feeding, and good breeding.
I'm not so sure there isn't a market for potty-trained snakes, but I'll let someone else conduct that experiment. <snicker>

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

My intro post said I was getting back into reptiles after a hiatus, and that the last thing I was focusing on before the hiatus was leopard geckos. I have said that I've been working with reptiles since I was a teenager.
Beyond that, you'll just have to take what I say at face value on its own merit. :D There is some fun in watching people make assumptions based on biases, though.

I'm getting lockups from my AHS, not my ball pythons yet. Bit early in the season, and some of my females are still in quarantine. Plus, I'm going to be trying something new. I'm getting my hands on a humidifier, and I'm going to try spiking the humidity to 80 or 90% in December for at least a week, and see if I notice any behavioral changes as a result. The talk about barometric pressure changes and the rainy season got me thinking. I don't want to spray the bins that much, but if I raise the humidity in the entire room, I shouldn't get the dampness or condensation.

I think it will be cool, a decade or two down the road, to be able to say my ball pythons have been bred for hardiness, adaptability, temperment, ease of feeding, and good breeding.
I'm not so sure there isn't a market for potty-trained snakes, but I'll let someone else conduct that experiment. <snicker>

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Yea, you can have hardiness, adaptbility, temperment, ease of feeding, and good breeding but stay away from tail-wagging and potty training - I call those.
:D

I'm looking forward to seeing you market them... lol

I want a bp that poops when i clap my hands.

If I ever come across one, I'll sell it to you.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Beyond that, you'll just have to take what I say at face value on its own merit.

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Actually when someone I don't know appears on the scene, making factual statements rather than presenting their thoughts, I don't take them on face value. I do like to know what research or better yet, hands on experience they have backing up a statement of fact they are putting forth.

Right now I have two ball pythons that are much more aggressive than any others in my collection. They are adults who always hiss when I clean their cages, are very ridged when picked up, and regularly strike if given a little time on the floor to get oriented before I finish cleaning the cage. They are a mother and daughter. I saw something similar in a different mother and son several years ago but they weren’t as bad as these two.

So, while I don't discount environment/experience, I believe there can be a genetic component to ball python temperament.

My main worry is that there are breeders actively selecting for aggressive temperament ball pythons and that over time they might start to loose their reputation as a docile species. There is a general belief that aggressive ball pythons will be better feeders so some might be selecting aggressive normal females or holdback babies of all types to add to their breeding collection.

I haven't yet been able to bring myself to cull this aggressive mother and daughter from my breeding collection because I think they may carry some interesting morph genetics. I'm hoping to be able to prove or disprove that soon. If they prove it will be hard to stop breeding them. If they don’t prove, they wouldn’t make good pets so if I sold them it would probably be to another breeder. I suppose the high road would be to keep them indefinitely but not breed them.

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Actually when someone I don't know appears on the scene, making factual statements rather than presenting their thoughts, I don't take them on face value. I do like to know what research or better yet, hands on experience they have backing up a statement of fact they are putting forth.

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Fact such as what? Google is your friend, if you want to verify facts, lol.
A fact is a fact, where it came from isn't relevent, if it's true.
If it's not, then that's what's important--cite something to prove otherwise, and I'll stand corrected gladly. In my opinion, having correct information is king, none of the rest of it matters at all.

There's no way I could possibly produce a research document to support everything I say, I've collected information on herps for over a decade and a half. I absorb everything, but I don't always make a note of where it came from, if the source was legitimate.

So, if you see me state something as a fact when it's not, correct me with some documentation to back it up, and I'll concede easily. Being right is only important to me if I actually AM right.

Then too, I don't think I've been doing a whole lot of citing my opinions as facts around here. I generally take care to be sure that my opinions are stated as opinions, and only actual facts are stated as facts.

The problem seems to arise when someone's opinions contradict the facts. ;)

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Fact such as what? Google is your friend, if you want to verify facts, lol.
A fact is a fact, where it came from isn't relevent, if it's true.
If it's not, then that's what's important--cite something to prove otherwise, and I'll stand corrected gladly. In my opinion, having correct information is king, none of the rest of it matters at all.

There's no way I could possibly produce a research document to support everything I say, I've collected information on herps for over a decade and a half. I absorb everything, but I don't always make a note of where it came from, if the source was legitimate.

So, if you see me state something as a fact when it's not, correct me with some documentation to back it up, and I'll concede easily. Being right is only important to me if I actually AM right.

Then too, I don't think I've been doing a whole lot of citing my opinions as facts around here. I generally take care to be sure that my opinions are stated as opinions, and only actual facts are stated as facts.

The problem seems to arise when someone's opinions contradict the facts. ;)

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You know, A few months back I would have posted a Fact about you here. But I'm the New me.. With that being said Google is Bull:cens0r::cens0r::cens0r::cens0r:e!

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

Right now I have two ball pythons that are much more aggressive than any others in my collection. They are adults who always hiss when I clean their cages, are very ridged when picked up, and regularly strike if given a little time on the floor to get oriented before I finish cleaning the cage. They are a mother and daughter. I saw something similar in a different mother and son several years ago but they weren’t as bad as these two.

So, while I don't discount environment/experience, I believe there can be a genetic component to ball python temperament.

My main worry is that there are breeders actively selecting for aggressive temperament ball pythons and that over time they might start to loose their reputation as a docile species. There is a general belief that aggressive ball pythons will be better feeders so some might be selecting aggressive normal females or holdback babies of all types to add to their breeding collection.

I haven't yet been able to bring myself to cull this aggressive mother and daughter from my breeding collection because I think they may carry some interesting morph genetics. I'm hoping to be able to prove or disprove that soon. If they prove it will be hard to stop breeding them. If they don’t prove, they wouldn’t make good pets so if I sold them it would probably be to another breeder. I suppose the high road would be to keep them indefinitely but not breed them.

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Great point! Be sure to post any findings you make on how the behavior does or does not transfer through genetics. I'd love to hear them!

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Originally Posted by JASBALLS

With that being said Google is Bull:cens0r::cens0r::cens0r::cens0r:e!

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Google is a search engine. It produces relevent web sites based on keywords. It's up to the searcher to determine whether those sites are legitimate sources of information. They could be something thrown up by a 10-year-old, or they could be a government site, or a University site, or any number of other legitimate educational and scientific resources.
If Google is 'bull', then there is no such thing as a good information source on the internet (and what's more that must mean anything previously printed in a book has suddenly become worthless once it's transferred into digital media).
I don't quite understand your opinion on this. :)

I've never been entirely sure where the idea came from that information acquired on the web was 'bad'. Increasingly, libraries are transferring documents and books into digital media. Everything from encyclopedias to in-depth hardcore scientific research papers can be retrieved through a quick Google search. It's no longer true that paper provides more legitimacy than a website. I'm not entirely sure it was ever true.

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Originally Posted by chz

I am just wondering if there are any breeders out there that selectively breed BPs for reasons other than morphs. I think it'd be neat to see people pick out the friendliest ball pythons around and breed em out. Who knows.. maybe we'd get ball pythons with very outgoing personalities similar to boas. Just a thought..

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I have nasty babies from some of the nicest parents. And nice babies from Nasty parents.. In my limited (non google) Experience you cant breed for attitude.. My parents where nice people and look at me..

Well, it's not something that would be clear in a single generation--that should be obvious. You have no idea how many nice or nasty animals were in your snake's ancestry. It would take a fair number of generations of deliberate selection to start to show results. So, unless you've already been working on selecting for temperment, you can't really say whether or not temperment's based on genetics or...hm, what else did you think it was based on?
Choices on that are pretty limited. Incubation temperatures or humidity levels? Pure chance?

Temperment in all other animals that have been bred for it has turned out to be controlled to a large degree by genetics, so why WOULD ball pythons be different?
Sure, environment can have an impact, but were you keeping your nice snakes or nasty snakes in different conditions? Were the nasty snakes traumatized or something?

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Originally Posted by chz

I want a bp that poops when i clap my hands.

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lmao if u prove it out ill buy some.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Well, it's not something that would be clear in a single generation--that should be obvious. You have no idea how many nice or nasty animals were in your snake's ancestry. It would take a fair number of generations of deliberate selection to start to show results. So, unless you've already been working on selecting for temperment, you can't really say whether or not temperment's based on genetics or...hm, what else did you think it was based on?
Choices on that are pretty limited. Incubation temperatures or humidity levels? Pure chance?

Temperment in all other animals that have been bred for it has turned out to be controlled to a large degree by genetics, so why WOULD ball pythons be different?
Sure, environment can have an impact, but were you keeping your nice snakes or nasty snakes in different conditions? Were the nasty snakes traumatized or something?

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Yes I beat all 500 of my snakes! Your a phoney hun. Go google something else Bp's arent your thing!

Hey, wow...mods? Random personal attack, pretty uncalled for. Someone pee in your Wheaties today?