Is it ok if my bp eats a live mouse, live?

Well, today was feeding day... and 2 out of 3 pinks were consumed live, she/he didn't squeeze the pinks, just grapped and ate.. one of them was still crawling inside..
Is this not good? Should I make him/her squezze it? Can the pink hurt the insides possibly??

Pinkies don't have teeth or nails and the snakes know they don't pose a threat. When meals are too small, then the snake won't constrict. Why is he still on pinkies? Baby Ball Pythons right out of the egg can eat hopper mice, then by the 3rd meal or so, they can go on to small adult mice. Pinkies aren't much of a meal and he's likely wasting more energy swallowing them than he's getting out of them. Try a small adult mouse, he should be just fine.

Yeah, save the pinks for corns ;)

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Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

Pinkies don't have teeth or nails and the snakes know they don't pose a threat. When meals are too small, then the snake won't constrict. Why is he still on pinkies? Baby Ball Pythons right out of the egg can eat hopper mice, then by the 3rd meal or so, they can go on to small adult mice. Pinkies aren't much of a meal and he's likely wasting more energy swallowing them than he's getting out of them. Try a small adult mouse, he should be just fine.

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The pet store had no rat pups ( I feed 2) so the guy gave me 3 pinks... And this guy is WAY too small to eat a adult mouse.. My close to 1 year old eats 2 and is pretty full... dunno maybe it's just me..

How many grams is your BP? Ive seen 75 g BPs take a small mouse. I can't say that I am the absolute authority on the subject, but I would think that it would be more stressful on your snake to eat 3 pinks then one small mouse, and in my experience, a small mouse is about the same size as a rat pup. If you are worried about it biting back, stun it, thump it or offer FT.

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Originally Posted by ArcticBlue

How many grams is your BP? Ive seen 75 g BPs take a small mouse. I can't say that I am the absolute authority on the subject, but I would think that it would be more stressful on your snake to eat 3 pinks then one small mouse, and in my experience, a small mouse is about the same size as a rat pup. If you are worried about it biting back, stun it, thump it or offer FT.

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Just FYI, "stunning" is considered by most to be a very cruel way to feed. Either feed live, or fresh dead. You risk putting the prey through unnecessary pain and suffering by merely "stunning" it.

Feeding live mice to snakes is no less cruel in my opinion. Suffucation is not a pleasant way to die. I would be happy to continue the discussion in PM, do not want to distract from the OPs question, as it is an important one.

Why did he give you 3 pinkies instead of 3 fuzzies? Fuzzies are the next step down in prey size, not pinkies.

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Originally Posted by ArcticBlue

Feeding live mice to snakes is no less cruel in my opinion. Suffucation is not a pleasant way to die. I would be happy to continue the discussion in PM, do not want to distract from the OPs question, as it is an important one.

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Not to start a flame war, however, if you're going to give advice, and then someone comes and questions the soundness of advice (even if it is just one or two choice words, such as here, as 99/100's of it was great), what good does it do to take the convo to PM's? The information should be readily available to those who are reading this thread. Besides, it's a discussion on feeding live... I believe the topic fits quite well.

Feeding stunned is considered more cruel to the prey, and dangerous overall because there's a chance the prey may wake-up from it's stupor while actually being swallowed and causing even more damage to the snake then a mere scratch or defensive bite. The prey may not be knocked unconscious and only be paralyzed, causing the prey to experience both suffocation, and the nasty lump you gave it from being smashed around; or that the snake may refuse the meal and you're left with a prey item that will awaken to terrible amounts of pain. If you care for a pain-free death for the prey, make a proper CO2 chamber to peacefully put the prey to sleep.

Once again, I am not trying to single you out, but if you give advice, be prepared to stand by it if someone questions it.

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Originally Posted by Roswell

Why did he give you 3 pinkies instead of 3 fuzzies? Fuzzies are the next step down in prey size, not pinkies.

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Yes, try two fuzzies.

How large is the thickest part of your snake? Usually they can swallow something the size of their thickest part of the body. Our BP is about a year, maybe slightly over and on adult F/T just fine. But when we ran out of adults, we offered two fuzzies F/T since we didn't want to wastethem, it was feeding night, and the pet store was closed.

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Originally Posted by Gooseman

Feeding stunned is considered more cruel to the prey, and dangerous overall because there's a chance the prey may wake-up from it's stupor while actually being swallowed and causing even more damage to the snake then a mere scratch or defensive bite. The prey may not be knocked unconscious and only be paralyzed, causing the prey to experience both suffocation, and the nasty lump you gave it from being smashed around; or that the snake may refuse the meal and you're left with a prey item that will awaken to terrible amounts of pain. If you care for a pain-free death for the prey, make a proper CO2 chamber to peacefully put the prey to sleep.

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Righto, Gooseman.

Anyway, it's easier just to go to F/T.

Although I feed either live or fresh killed (depending on the snake) I personally don't see anything wrong with stunned prey depending on the situation. With a ball python, most will still strike and squeeze their prey until it's dead so I don't see any problem with stunning them first. With something more along the lines of a king snake or corn snake I have more of a problem as they have a tendency to just swallow it live.

I guess I just don't see how paralyzing the rat is any more cruel than having it run around, scared because it can see the snake coming after it, only to be bitten, and squeezed to death. You stated it was painful, I'm not doctor and I am by no means a expert on the subject, but if a stunning is done correctly is it not supposed to paralyze the mouse? If so, would the paralyzed mouse not be able to feel pain from the neck down (assuming that's where the paralyzation has taken place)

Feed Live, Stunned, Fresh Killed, Or Frozen Thawed. Whatever works best for you and doesn't put the animal in unnecessary pain. That's my :2cent:

My reasoning for wanting to take it to a PM is so we don't hijack this persons thread. I would hate for this to turn into a debate, and the OP not get the help he needs. Would rather either debate in PM or start a new thread, or bump what I am sure is many threads on this subject.

I have stunned prey before, never had a problem with this injuring the snake. I've never actually heard of this being a problem, but like I said in my first post, I am not the authority in this subject, just giving out advice based on my experience. Honestly...I see very little difference in thumping or other "cruel" methods of feeding snakes and the way the animals are treated and then slaughtered for meat for human consumption. It is a personal opinion.

Either way I stand by my post, and I have no problem discussing this here as long as the OP doesn't mind and is getting all the help they want.

I generally offer stunned prey if a snake refuses pre-killed, and I'm trying to convert it over to f/t eventually. It tends to 'bridge the gap'. I would think the chance of a prey animal waking up halfway down the throat of a snake is low, as they would already be fairly well suffocated by having their head down the snake's throat. Plus, it's hard to imagine a python picking up live prey, even if it's not moving, without constricting it. The rodent is still breathing, and that tends to trigger them to kill it.
I'm sure there is the occasional 'slow student', as snakes are all individuals, but that's where supervision comes in.
Occasionally an individual snake will swallow fully conscious live prey (adult, not pinky), too, which is even more dangerous.

But it's hard to imagine a ball python too small to eat a hopper mouse, that would be an abnormally tiny hatchling. I think new people may underestimate just how incredibly far their jaws and throat can stretch.

Back to the original question, eating live pink mice won't do the python any harm, though it's quite unpleasant for the mice.

Either feed live or feed f/t.. We are not here to bash the feeders' heads in so they don't harm the snake. Why do you think nature let them evolve with scales for skin? They are able to defend themselves and very well. Just choosing the correct prey size(no live large, adult rats for Balls.. not needed) is all that is needed to ensure your snake won't have problems. Pre-scenting the room, so the snakes are aware of what is going to happen, is also a good idea.


Snakes don't kill their prey by suffocation. Anyone ever fainted? It's about like that, where the blood stops flowing to your brain, oxygen can't get where it needs to be, and you pass out. When a snake constricts, the blood stops flowing to the brain, they faint and since they can't breathe, they then go unconscious and die. It's not like the are underwater and can't breathe(well.. sometimes there's a waterbowl mishap).

Being stunned is like being in a bad car accident. What if you aren't paralyzed? What if the crash actually makes you hypersensitive and everything hurts 10x worse than it would have? What if your ribs pierce your lungs and they can no longer inflate, so you suffocate? That really doesn't sound like a very fun death to me. I'd rather faint and go unconscious anyday.

I have hatchlings that are around 2months old(hatched the middle of August). They weigh about 110-120g and are eating small/medium adult mice. Believe me, they are capable. Their first meal, they got small hoppers, but their second meal, they got large hoppers and upgraded from there. These babies were around 55-65g at hatching.

If you can't find baby rats on a regular basis, get small adult mice. Those are usually very plentiful and your snake should do just fine with them. Pinks/fuzzies should be reserved for cornsnakes and other teensy colubrids. Ball Pythons may have tiny necks but they stretch and they are able to take larger prey pretty soon out of the egg.

While a large python with a very small prey item may stop blood flow in its prey, and the large pythons are certainly known for this, most baby ball pythons are suffocating their mice. This is clear from simply watching the process. As the mouse exhales, the python tightens its coils further, preventing the mouse from inhaling again, until it expires. You can watch the panic response take hold just before the mouse passes out.

Of course, pre-killing or feeding f/t is the most humane method, but for a stubborn feeder, stunned is safer than live for the snake. Provided you've done it properly, the prey animal will not wake up.

Apart from providing a bridge between live and pre-killed, though, I don't see much purpose for it.

I disagree with you somewhat. I believe snakes do kill by suffocation. The mice/rats are not conscious through the entire process due to the fainting that you spoke of, but it is due to the lack of blood to the brain/oxygen to the body that kills them. That's suffocation. Just because the rat/mouse isn't conscious through the entire thing doesn't mean they don't suffocate still.

When stunning I'll agree that it could paralyze, it could as you said, make them more hypersensitive. All of this is speculation. In terms of the ribs piercing the lungs so they can no longer inflate, that would be due to the snakes biting/squeezing, not to the stunning itself as the stunning itself is commonly done by thumping the mouse in the head. I agree that it does not sound like a pleasant way to die, but although fainting and going unconscious and slipping into death may not be so bad, having razor sharp teeth plunging into you, then being squeezed while you struggle and try and breath before you faint and go unconscious isn't very pleasant sounding either.

Overall I agree with most of your post, most people underestimate just how much hatchlings can take. I was on the receiving end of this myself. My new cinny I got was very small and he would not take frozen thawed or fresh killed. I offered him a live small fuzzy and left it in overnight. He ended up taking it and I was worried that because he didn't go after it right away there was a problem. I offered him another fuzzy the next week, due to fear that his feeding response wasn't up to snuff again he didn't show much intrest, but took the fuzzy overnight. The next week I didn't have any rat pups (again) but I went up to the store and they were outta fuzzies. The only thing they had was a hopper that was almost a small mouse! I was terrified but dropped it in, my snake had it within 10 seconds. He's had 2 more feedings since and is taking small mice with no problem.

I believe the OP's snake would be fine with a small mouse or large hopper. Snakes have evolved over years to do their job and they do it quite well. Although there are occasional issues, most can be resolved with proper observation of feeding.

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Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

Snakes don't kill their prey by suffocation. Anyone ever fainted? It's about like that, where the blood stops flowing to your brain, oxygen can't get where it needs to be, and you pass out. When a snake constricts, the blood stops flowing to the brain, they faint and since they can't breathe, they then go unconscious and die. It's not like the are underwater and can't breathe(well.. sometimes there's a waterbowl mishap).

Being stunned is like being in a bad car accident. What if you aren't paralyzed? What if the crash actually makes you hypersensitive and everything hurts 10x worse than it would have? What if your ribs pierce your lungs and they can no longer inflate, so you suffocate? That really doesn't sound like a very fun death to me. I'd rather faint and go unconscious anyday.

I have hatchlings that are around 2months old(hatched the middle of August). They weigh about 110-120g and are eating small/medium adult mice. Believe me, they are capable. Their first meal, they got small hoppers, but their second meal, they got large hoppers and upgraded from there. These babies were around 55-65g at hatching.

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Good post.


I still would have to argue that some people go to extreme measures to "thump" their feeder animals. Some may just flick it in the head, but some may just grab it by the tail and smash it on a table. What happens if it's not done correctly? I prefer to respect the prey animals that keep my snakes alive by keeping them calm, fed, watered and unsuspecting until the second they are dropped into the tub. Usually their feet don't even touch the floor. I fed off 65 live adult mice last night and not one of my snakes got bit or had a bad grab. I did have to tell some of the adult females not to strike 2ft out of their tub at my head.

Have you ever closely watched a prey animal get constricted? I watch every so often because I find it interesting. Yes, the mouse panics for about 2-3 seconds, but after the blood stops rushing to it's head(you can tell because their tongue is purple), their brain takes over and all is happening is reflective movements(the twitching and so forth). So honestly, it is just speculation that it's either suffocation or hypoxia that occurs when the animal is constricted.

I still think I would choose constriction over a car accident any day :)

I've never ever stunned prey before feeding it. I've also never ever had an injury in over 2000 live prey being fed off.

For further discussion on method of death caused by constriction:

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constriction


Snakes

Constriction is a method used by various snake species to kill their prey. Constrictors do not have venom in their fangs to kill prey; instead, they simply squeeze them to death. The snake initially strikes at its prey and holds on, pulling the prey into its coils or, in the case of very large prey, pulling itself onto the prey. The snake will then wrap one or two coils around the prey, typically the prey's chest. Contrary to myth, the snake does not crush the prey, nor does the constriction simply suffocate it. Instead, the pressures exerted on the prey's body result in cardiac arrest. A gopher snake constricting a mouse for example, applies pressures of 6.1-30.9 kPa which range from one half to more than two times the mouse's systolic blood pressure, and are likely more than 10 times larger than its venous pressure. Applying constriction, a snake can kill its prey in seconds, thus avoiding the dangers of prolonged close contact with a possibly dangerous creature, that would be the result of mere suffocation.



Other meanings

Constriction, the opposite of dilation or dilatation, also refers to vasoconstriction, the narrowing of blood vessels caused by vascular smooth muscle contractions and some venoms.

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Originally Posted by Holbeird

I guess I just don't see how paralyzing the rat is any more cruel than having it run around, scared because it can see the snake coming after it, only to be bitten, and squeezed to death.

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This reminds me of a response I got from a rat fanatic. She claimed that these rats actually go crazy while they watch the hunter come after them, causing extreme stress, and sometimes a horrible death. I can pull the email if I have to.

How about this angle, all the live rats I have feed have never acted like the snake is dangerous or seem to care that there is even another animal in the tub. Also, how would you know a rat even views the snake as a predator? Unless the rat has had a scrap with a snake in the past, how would it even know death is coming until the moment the snake grabs it? Yes yes, the snake may miss, but I don't believe the rat starts to go crazy like this woman claimed.
That's, again, putting human emotions and logic into an animal with a far simpler brain. I think they are adorable and talented creatures for memorization, but they aren't humans in little fur coats.

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You stated it was painful, I'm not doctor and I am by no means a expert on the subject, but if a stunning is done correctly is it not supposed to paralyze the mouse? If so, would the paralyzed mouse not be able to feel pain from the neck down (assuming that's where the paralyzation has taken place)

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I don't see most people that stun going for the neck honestly. I think the general "stunning" is placing in a bag and wacking it as hard as you can against a wall or floor. No real science to try and paralyze, but to stun it so the rat is alive, but can't move.
If science says that snakes actually stop the heart from pumping, or by suffocation, I think it's by far more humane than stunning. I know that I would probably pass out from the constriction, so who knows? Maybe most times the rats actually do get knocked out before they pass.

Here's another link that Joanna shared with me about constriction now being believed to stop the heart rather than suffocating the prey:


http://blogs.nationalgeographic.com/channel/blog/2006/01/explorer_supersnake.html

Great link!

Great Post Robin and Becky.


I agree Becky that I believe most do not stun their prey efficiently and if done incorrectly can cause more harm than good. I'm in no way stating that everyone should stun their mice. I feed most of my snakes live and I have no desire to stun them. I believe the snake can do it's job better then I could ever dream to.

That's a great post about them not suffocating but going into cardiac arrest Robin. Either way though, I wouldn't want to go out that way either! Part of the reason my wife wants me to stop eating so much fatty fried foods, and putting salt on everything! ;) I'd much rather be put into a co2 chamber lol.

Little Indian girl, I agree that you do have some people who are going to be stupid, and put the rat in a bag and smash it against the wall. But when I spoke of stunning I was speaking of a more efficient and less barbaric (in my opinion) way of doing so. Also, I believe that Mice and Rats have an instinctual fear of snakes. Although I have some great eaters in my colony, some that strike before the rat or mouse even hits the floor at times. I have Others who will let the food walk around for 5 or 10 minutes. I've also noticed on occasion (although it's always been mice that have done it) running frantically and jumping towards the top of the tubs trying to get away. I have also noticed one run up and sniff the snake (before I snapped my tongs together to scare it away!) So obviously it's not instinctual to all mice, but some do have that fear. Either way, great post!

My guess is that the animal dies due to a combination of factors when it's being constricted, but certainly I've noticed that prey animals that are proportionately larger (in comparison with the snake) will take longer to die. So, I'm still going with 'baby ball pythons may suffocate their prey'.
I've seen a mouse still periodically struggling a full minute after it was grabbed (and not reflexive twitching, that came later).
There's also rather gruesome footage on youtube of a corn snake swallowing a mouse without bothering to kill it first, so a number of scenarios are possible.
As I said, you can tell what's going on by simply observing the process. It's not that difficult to determine whether or not the rodent is still conscious.
But this isn't really about that, so....

I second the observation that rodents do not recognize the snake as a predator. However, if the snake happens to strike and miss, that changes immediately, and then the rat/mouse can become very disturbed. Some seem only temporarily startled, while others show increasing signs of agitation and fear at that point.

My method of stunning involves smacking the animal over the head. I prefer that to simply putting it in a bag or swinging it by the tail--the rodent doesn't have to experience the sensation of being violently swung around first, and the strike is much more precise, so there's less risk of breaking bones but leaving the animal conscious.

I also aim to hit it hard enough that it will never wake up--if not eaten, then it will slip into death, rather than waking. (Then it goes into the freezer for another try further down the road).

But stunning isn't done for the rodent--it's done to help protect the snake from a bite, and to help the snake get used to taking prey that isn't fleeing or moving violently. It's the snake's well-being that I'm concerned with first. If you want to help the rodent, then pre-kill it.

Either way, it's a difficult act to perform, but we're used to buying our food from supermarkets rather than having to dispatch and clean it ourselves, so must of us just aren't accustomed to it. I think it's more respectful to the animal to do it yourself, rather than leave it for others to do.

Honestly, I wouldn't didnt know there was a "less barbaric way to stun". Please, how is that done?

Give the mouse a few shots of Cuervo before you toss him into the tub? ;) That'll leave him stunned for at least a few minutes, haha.

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Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

Give the mouse a few shots of Cuervo before you toss him into the tub? ;) That'll leave him stunned for at least a few minutes, haha.

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Yea but when I do that, they just turn into an angry drunk. :rolleyes:

:D But then would your snake slither around, knock over it's hides and water bowls before passing out on it's side?

No, he would cause a scene in the middle of his tub, something about a sexy set of spurs or something, and all of the other snakes would give him dirty looks.

You know snakes.. always causing problems.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

I generally offer stunned prey if a snake refuses pre-killed, and I'm trying to convert it over to f/t eventually. It tends to 'bridge the gap'.

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Okay, I can actually agree with this. But then, how is stunned different from pre-killed? Do snakes actually refuse a prekilled over a stunned? They aren't moving except for the breathing, so what stimulation is there to get the snake to strike? Unless its the zombie rat dance :confused: :P

One of mine does have a very sexy set of spurs, at least that's what the ladys say...

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Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

No, he would cause a scene in the middle of his tub, something about a sexy set of spurs or something, and all of the other snakes would give him dirty looks.

You know snakes.. always causing problems.

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Yes, I've actually had snakes refuse pre-killed, and take stunned. The breathing is enough to stimulate them to strike.
The dead rat Tango intimidates some snakes, I've had better results by placing the stunned rat in the tub and leaving it alone. Some snakes seem to prefer their dead rat moving a lot, while other find that frightening--dangling it from the tongs while holding it as still as possible seems to do the trick for them. The slight movement is enough to stimulate a strike, where a completely stationary rat on the cage floor doesn't.

I can't beleive people are actually arguing about pain and suffering of a mouse. Seriously its a mouse! They are at the bottom of the food chain, don't get me wrong i care about animals too but you gotta draw the line somewhere. If you wanna argue with someone about pain and suffering ask an American soldier about having his legs or arms blown off because of some coward who thinks IED's area great way to fight a war! It's great that people have an opinion about some things but don't take it out on other people over such trivial stuff! :colbert:

The only difference between a coward and a hero is what you do with the fear!
CPT.Jeff Streukker

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

I think it's more respectful to the animal to do it yourself, rather than leave it for others to do.

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Your whole post makes my head hurt...but I just don't get how it is any more respectful for you to do it as opposed to having somone lse do it.

Does the prey appreciate it more coming from the person who is feeding it off?

:confused:

I don't believe in intentionally torturing anything but you can't argue with nature. Snakes eat live prey. People shouldn't project their sensitivity about animals onto their snakes and its eating habits.

Woah!! What happened when I was gone?! lol 4 pages..

To tell you guys the truth, to me, I don't care about the mouse's feelings when it's getting eaten, it's a mouse, it was going to die any way. I started hitting a mouse with a book to "stunn" it so it wouldn't bite my snake. Too bad for the mouse is all I can say.
Now, let me get this cleared up.. the pet store didn't have rat pups, only pinkies which mean there were ONLY pinkies, no fuzzies too. I had no choice.. My snakes got to eat so at least I fed it. Next time I'll try to get something bigger.. maybe go to another pet store (which is a bad one but whatever)

Yes i agree with you on that and people should understand they are snakes they have instincts and to take that away from them is taking away part of its predatorial mojo!!! :colbert:And that is why I love them so much ! That killer instict like dinosaurs!!!

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

My method of stunning involves smacking the animal over the head. I prefer that to simply putting it in a bag or swinging it by the tail--the rodent doesn't have to experience the sensation of being violently swung around first, and the strike is much more precise, so there's less risk of breaking bones but leaving the animal conscious.

I also aim to hit it hard enough that it will never wake up--if not eaten, then it will slip into death, rather than waking. (Then it goes into the freezer for another try further down the road).

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According to the American Association of Veterinarians June Guidlines on Euthanasia, when it comes to rodents, "stunning" done via a "smack over the head" is inhumane.

http://www.avma.org/issues/animal_we...euthanasia.pdf

Hope this helps.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

According to the American Association of Veterinarians June Guidlines on Euthanasia, when it comes to rodents, "stunning" done via a "smack over the head" is inhumane.

http://www.avma.org/issues/animal_we...euthanasia.pdf

Hope this helps.

-adam

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Inhumane or not, it get's the job done. :)

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But stunning isn't done for the rodent--it's done to help protect the snake from a bite, and to help the snake get used to taking prey that isn't fleeing or moving violently. It's the snake's well-being that I'm concerned with first. If you want to help the rodent, then pre-kill it.

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And if you want to do so you should do it humanely using a CO2 chamber, or you can simply let nature take it's course by feeding live, which we have already establish can be done safely.

Being a responsible snake owner also mean having for the feeders.

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Originally Posted by BallPythonsRule

Inhumane or not, it get's the job done. :)

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dahmer said the exact same thing about his neighbors cat.

-adam

How do the snakes eat in the wild? I am sure they eat their pray live. So whats the big deal? Too many paranoid people is what the problem is. Think about how they live in the wild, they will slither around and eat a live mouse or rat or whatever it feels like. I dont understand how people can sit here and say "Its inhumane to do this or that", Its nature and thats just how things are.

I mean I hunt for Deer and Bear with both a Rifle and a Bow. Is one way more humane than the other? Lets see, get hit with an arrow that is literally drilling its way through your inners or get hit with a bullit that will still destroy your insides? Not every time you hit the animal will it just drop dead.

Some people need to grow up and accept the fact that thats how things live and its all natural.

I say feed the thing live if it eats it and feed it FT if it choses that rout. Personally my Snake wont touch FT.

Just my $.02

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Originally Posted by BallPythonsRule

I started hitting a mouse with a book to "stunn" it so it wouldn't bite my snake. Too bad for the mouse is all I can say.

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I really hope you don't mean that literally. Why? First of all, you have rat pinks and fuzzies - how dangerous do you really think they are?

My ball pythons from babies to adults NEVER need my interference to dispatch live prey efficiently and effectively WITHOUT injury.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

dahmer said the exact same thing about his neighbors cat.

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That's a bit extreme, no?

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Originally Posted by rabernet

I really hope you don't mean that literally. Why? First of all, you have rat pinks and fuzzies - how dangerous do you really think they are?

My ball pythons from babies to adults NEVER need my interference to dispatch live prey efficiently and effectively WITHOUT injury.

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lol not the fuzzies and pinks.
Regular mice to my other bp, it got bit so.... I don't want it to happen again... ever.

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Originally Posted by BallPythonsRule

lol not the fuzzies and pinks.
Regular mice to my other bp, it got bit so.... I don't want it to happen again... ever.

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Beating it with a book? How badly was your snake injured by this bite?

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

dahmer said the exact same thing about his neighbors cat.

-adam

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That's kinda sick...
Don't make me regret all that good rep I gave ya'.. :rolleyes: jk

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Beating it with a book? How badly was your snake injured by this bite?

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It got bit by the eye on the mouth... I made a thread about it: http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=53916

I didn't continue with the thread but when I looked inside it's mouth there was a worse scratch... I contacted a vet through phone, he said to just keep an eye on it.. He's fine though now...
I decide it was time to man-up (or 'woman'-up) so I did it... I still hate it though. The bite wasn't THAT bad but I realized it could be worse.

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Originally Posted by jwarriner

That's a bit extreme, no?

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well, it was a joke ... but, since you bring it up, are there "levels" of inhumanity? Is it ok to whack a rodent on the head with a ball peen hammer to "stun it" before you feed it to your snake, but not ok to kick a cat in the head when it gets in your way? Who gets to decide what "level" is acceptable and what "level" isn't?

I sure as heck don't know the answers, but I do know that I would never kick a cat or "whack" a rodent ... I just couldn't bring myself to do those things. It kills me to feed my snakes when I think about the rodents ... but it has to be done. Everyone has their own views of what is and isn't "humane" I guess ... that's why I posted the link above ... one or more posters here feel that "whacking" rodents is acceptable ... a body of skilled, experienced, and educated veterinarians do not ... who's right? Like I said, I don't know the answers.

-adam

I'm sure smacking a mouse over the head is considered inhumane, but without a doubt, so is feeding it to a snake live. lol (I guarantee, while some may see it as nature taking its course, the organization cited would not see it that way. The moment you deliberately put the mouse in that situation, you're responsible for the way it dies).

In reality, I think prekilling a mouse by a quick blow to the head is at least as humane CO2. When you have not even a reflex twitch or single breath from them afterward, you know the death was as quick as physically possible. Most of the reasoning I've seen behind its being considered inhumane has to do with people screwing it up, and not with its ability to painlessly kill the animal. I haven't seen any sign that it's less effective or quick than cervical dislocation, which is an approved method.

It matters to me that the animal not suffer unduly if there is any choice. But, the snakes eat first, the niceties come second to that.

At present, mice and rats are exempt from most humane laws. Laboratories have guidelines they must follow, but no one else does. That's why we have glue traps being sold to kill mice. Those things are really gruesome--according the package directions, when a mouse becomes stuck to the trap, you simply throw it in the garbage (where it dies of dehydration).
If that ever changes, it's going to make keeping snakes much more difficult, because I guarantee live-feeding of rodents to snakes will become illegal, as it already is in some places.

As for the philosophy behind killing something yourself--that's more complex, and I certainly don't want to tread on toes over a personal belief issue. In my opinion, if you are responsible for the ending of a life, you should not flinch from looking the creature in the eye and doing it yourself. If you are keeping a carnivorous animal, then you're responsible for taking lives to feed it, whether you do it, or someone else does. I don't believe that passing the responsibility off to another person shows respect for the animal...quite the contrary. If you cannot take a life yourself, then you shouldn't be responsible for it being taken either. I also don't believe that allowing your pet to make the kill itself means you aren't responsible for the death.

Respect is not always received when it is given--it's not about whether the animal appreciates the gesture. Perhaps its soul will. :) My way of respecting the life of an animal is to have the courage to end that life myself, if it is going to be dying for my benefit. I don't believe in taking lives without good reason, but I would never dream of eating, or taking advantage of the death of, something I was not willing to kill myself.
Emotional distancing doesn't seem respectful to me at all.

But the above is merely my personal feelings on the issue. It's clear there is a broad spectrum of opinion about it all. In the end, we keep snakes--snakes eat mice. The mice have to die in order for the snake to have dinner. No one is advocating torturing them to death, so I'm fairly sure we're all reasonably sane here. ;)