is cooling required for females?

i have read that the theory behind a cooling period is that it elevates the males testosterone levels and this triggers them to want to breed. if this is the case then is cooling really necessary for female bps? couldnt we just cool the males to get them pumped and then place them with the females? does cooling affect the females in any way?

now this is something i have read from only one source and i would like to know what all you experienced breeders think or any other theories you have read.

pretty sure its not 100% needed but i am also sure there are breeders out there that do it.

It is up to the breeder. I bred them successfully for the first time in 2006-7, and I did not cool, and had great results.

I cool them and have been doing so for the last three years. I start dropping my temps the first of Nov and will continue to do until the second week of April. As females lay eggs they go into a different rack system that I leave the heat on for so they get back back on food. I would highly recommend cooling down to 72 degrees at night.


Later
Brock

Coming Soon PEAR

Over the last 10+ years that I've been breeding ball pythons I've used different combinations of cooling and not cooling ... for the most part I've used what is laid out on my breeding calander ...

http://www.8ballpythons.com/journal/...ngcalendar.htm

Last year I did not cool males at all and had the same success as when I do cool them.

There are many many ways to breed these animals with success, the key is to find the one that works best for you! If you have any questions or if there is any way that I can help at all with your up coming breeding season please don't hesitate to contact me here on Bp.Net or via email or my cell. I'd be more than happy to answer any questions that you have. :sweeet:

-adam

I guess that mine do undergo seasonal changes though. While their temperatures do not change, the light/dark cycles surely does. They are in a room with natural lighting (not by a window, but on the other side of the room..) So their day/night cycles are changing during the year; but this is not a temperature change, just a light-cycle change.

I'm following Adam's calendar...but with my own slight variations, and its working GREAT so far!
But like he said, find out what does and doesn't work for you and adapt.

I have nowhere the experience that Adam does when it comes to breeding Ball Pythons, and I value his opinion, and respect his willingness to share this experience with us. I have studied ornithology and herpetology. In the classes I took there seemed to be more evidence towards photoperiods having a greater effect on habits of reptiles and birds. I try to reproduce daily changes in temperature as would be found in a more equatorial region of the world. I also used timers and artificial lighting to try to keep closer to a 12/12 photo period.



Bill Phelps

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Originally Posted by Pintado

I have nowhere the experience that Adam does when it comes to breeding Ball Pythons, and I value his opinion, and respect his willingness to share this experience with us. I have studied ornithology and herpetology. In the classes I took there seemed to be more evidence towards photoperiods having a greater effect on habits of reptiles and birds. I try to reproduce daily changes in temperature as would be found in a more equatorial region of the world. I also used timers and artificial lighting to try to keep closer to a 12/12 photo period.



Bill Phelps

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I agree 100% Bill ... photoperiods are incredibly valuable when breeding ball pythons and I outline the exact day/night times I use throughout the year in my breeding calander. Last year, even though I did not cool males the room in my facility that I keep my males in was given the same light cycle that I've been using for breeding since the beginning!

-adam

thanks for the responses guys. i have changed my photoperiod from 12/12 to 11/13 in september and now to 10/14 in october. all i have done for cooling so far is drop the hot side at night by 6 degrees from 92 to 86 and the ambient temp naturally lowered to 80 degrees. i was thinking of just leaving the photoperiod and temps the way they are right now and maybe lowering them at night in a two weeks. i would then start cycling males in female tubs in november.


what do you guys think?

I have not cooled in the last two years and it's made no difference that I can tell in my breeding... I also live in a northern state and probably get some natural cooling effect. However, when you consider where these animals are from, (right smack on the equator) changing the temps or the light levels doesn't make much sense. However, one thing I HAVE noticed in breeding (and more importantly, Ovulation) Is that it happens more frequently during times of change. Right after thunderstorms or blizzards or cold snaps are when I see the most breeding activity or ovulations. If you can produce change artificially by dropping temps or light levels, then if it works for you, you should use it. Being the lazy sod that I am, I'm happy to get by with doing nothing....

Mark

wait, so as someone new to breeding I am relatively confused. from this thread I have garnered that cooling is unnecessary? why is it even done then? isn't it a risk because it increases the chances of respiratory infection?
JonV

I don't think that people are saying that cooling is unnecessary unless I am reading it wrong. I have a friend with a large collection. He has a ultrasound and he kept his room to hot. Last year he took my advice one week and dropped it down to 72 degrees at night and within two weeks he had substantial follicle growth. Now don't get them to cold or they will catch resp disease which will kill them. I keep girls that I want to grow follicles faster on the bottom of the rack and it works for me. Ralph's recipe is great also I would recommend the Sutherlands video. I studied both and it really helped!


Brock :sabduel:

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Originally Posted by Brock Wagner

I don't think that people are saying that cooling is unnecessary unless I am reading it wrong. I have a friend with a large collection. He has a ultrasound and he kept his room to hot. Last year he took my advice one week and dropped it down to 72 degrees at night and within two weeks he had substantial follicle growth. Now don't get them to cold or they will catch resp disease which will kill them. I keep girls that I want to grow follicles faster on the bottom of the rack and it works for me. Ralph's recipe is great also I would recommend the Sutherlands video. I studied both and it really helped!


Brock :sabduel:

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How did the ultrasound affect the room temp?


I never drop temps, I just watch the females and palpate for follicles. Once they are there the males go in. If there not there the males go in. That usually kicks the female in the Butt and she gets going..

Jasball or Darkside.


Sorry the ultrasound didn't affect it their size it was the temperature drop. Don't you have girls that are 800grams that lay eggs for you? Seriously what is the smallest girl to lay a viable egg from you. I know that BHB had a 900 gram girl lay a clutch once.

Thanks
Brock

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Originally Posted by Brock Wagner

Jasball or Darkside.


Sorry the ultrasound didn't affect it their size it was the temperature drop. Don't you have girls that are 800grams that lay eggs for you? Seriously what is the smallest girl to lay a viable egg from you. I know that BHB had a 900 gram girl lay a clutch once.

Thanks
Brock

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She laid 800grams when I started breeding her. 3 eggs. All healthy and 2 are bigger then mom LOL!

Cool do you have a picture of her on the clutch? I suppose if she had the age that wouldn't be a problem for her to produce a viable clutch. Thanks for the info!


Brock

She had the age around 3 years old. She just doesnt grow LOL!

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a3...irdgirl002.jpg

You got the picture cool. Sometimes they do that. They just won't eat! Eggs look good though.


Brock

I think alot depends on where you live. Wether you try to drop temps or not when winter comes temps will drop. Animals are on natural cycles and respond to changes in nature. People in the north have drastic chages in temps and light which animals will pick up on, how exactly I'm not sure but they do. I keep a room climate controled but some of my males will go off feed in the winter no matter how warm I keep it yet other can be cooled and still eat so individuals may vary but in general most follow the natural cycle.

I read (think it was the Barker's) and they tested light cycles in Africa (BP territory) and found because it is on the equator the light barely changed at all (from summer to winter), minutes if I recall correctly. I have used the Sutherlands methods because the are(were) from Southern Cali and I think following someones sucess who is in your general area will probably work best. I used to live in N.Y. and now in L.A. and the climate/seasons are dramatically different so i felt it's best to follow a local breeders sucess formulas and it has worked for me.

As many can see they are many ways to skin a cat and many ways to breed BP's. Some provide no UTH heat in winter, I myself think that is too extreme and always provide a warm basking area but may drop it a little as well as ambient.

It is great to see what others are doing and then see what works best for you.

Happy breeding season everyone, It's October, let the snake porn begin! :D

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Originally Posted by Brock Wagner

You got the picture cool. Sometimes they do that. They just won't eat! Eggs look good though.


Brock

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She eats.. Just doesnt grow!

I think changes barometric pressure may play a huge roll in triggering females that the season is upon them. Whether they are manually cooled or not..In my newbie opinion

I also feel thats why we see the most significant breeding action during and around storms because those are big spikes barometric pressure..sorry for the double post

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Originally Posted by Larry Suttles

I also feel thats why we see the most significant breeding action during and around storms because those are big spikes barometric pressure..sorry for the double post

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That is one of the (MOST IMPORTANT) things I go by. I'm a weather nut LOL!

Well then I should have my boy in the girls' tubs now... it's been raining here for a week...

so it's definitely possible to breed successfully without a cooling period so i guess that cooling can be used to as a method to try to get stubborn breeders to do their thing. some people just choose cool regardless so that success rate may be increased and stubborn breeders decreased.

hey Larry Suttles can i ask where you got that information from? i wouldnt mind reading up a little more on that...

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Originally Posted by Larry Suttles

I also feel thats why we see the most significant breeding action during and around storms because those are big spikes barometric pressure..sorry for the double post

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It makes sense. When it's storming really bad outside, what else is there to do besides breed, right? :)

JonV

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Originally Posted by bigballs

so it's definitely possible to breed successfully without a cooling period so i guess that cooling can be used to as a method to try to get stubborn breeders to do their thing. some people just choose cool regardless so that success rate may be increased and stubborn breeders decreased.

hey Larry Suttles can i ask where you got that information from? i wouldnt mind reading up a little more on that...

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I have read that low pressure/rain is natural to the breeding cycle. BP's breed during the cooler rainy season so by the time the eggs hatch the plants are growing, insects are hatching, rodents are breeding and food is abundant.

Many other reptiles are sensitive to changes in barometric presure as well.
Tortoises in the California desert know when it's gonna rain days before (It rarely rains) and they dig many little bowls in the ground to collect water then visit,drink and soak in them to absorb all the water they can because it can be 5 months or more until it might rain again.

Sorry to go off topic a little but snakes and other reptiles are sensitive to storms and rain. It is also helpful to increase humidity when mating BP's as well.

Where I got the information from? It's basically just a theory.

I think that barometric pressure along with a slight change in temps which many snake rooms have naturally as the seasons change are enough to trigger the breeding response. Why they react to barometric pressure? I assume it's a tell tale sign that the raining season is here but I don't think it's just the spike (I should use the word sudden drop instead) from a storm that does it. I think the balls recognize when the drops become more and more frequent ie the raining season.

Don't think Ghana doesn't get a drop in temperature as well during these times. I followed the weather in Ghana last year closely and during the breeding season temps in the 90's during the day and mid 70's at night were routine. Sound familiar?

This is just my opinion and nothing more but I do believe the changes in barometric pressure are enough to stimulate breeding. This is the kicker though.

If you want maximum results in your breeding trials and the highest percentage of females bred to end up gravid. Then all things need to be utilized. Temp drops combined with the lower barometric pressure and frequent misting would be the way to achieve the best results and two out of the three you can control.

Anybody can throw pairs together and get eggs but I'm talking about getting maximum results not just getting eggs from a portion of females bred.

IMO
larry

actually, all three CAN be controlled, but barometric pressure is a bit more tricky, especially if you're trying to maintain stable room temperatures. A simple box fan in the window will decrease the pressure a measurable amount...

cool guys i never knew the whole barometric pressure theory. i guess i gotta google it to learn more. thanks for the responses!