incubating substrate

I was wondering what kind of substrates you use. I've been looking into hatch rite but I'm not sure if its as good as they say or if its just marginally better than vermiculite

FWIW...I do the substrateless method. So my substrate is basically water and plastic grating :D . So far it works perfect for me and there is ZERO guess work on getting the right amount of water to whatever mix ratio.

I did the substrateless and used a mixture of vermiculite and perlite underneath the grate. I'll probably just use perlite this season as it's easier for me to get.

I also go with the no sub method. 100% hatch rate last season.

This coming season will be my twelfth year using vermic for ball python eggs ... I should go through over 160 lbs of the stuff in the spring ... I've tried everything from perlite, to sand, to substratless over the years and have had equal success with all of them ... vermiculite is just the easiest and most convenient for me.

Hope this helps.

-adam

Last year I used a mixture of verm and perlite. I like the bigger vermiculite pieces with the normal perlite; I don't like the smaller finer verm. I plan on doing the same this year; had 100% hatch rate using this mixture, 12/12. Pic of one clutch; sorry for the gruesome blood, I hit a vein.

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...ijiijiji-1.jpg

I'm a vermiculite man too. Sometimes I add perlite. I use this for all my beardie and BP eggs I hand squeeze all my mixtures (great exersize) to make sure there isn't too much moisture. I find that sometimes it comes real dry and sometimes moist so I don't go by formulas.

Great thread....

I use a mixture of vermiculite and perlite. In the past I've used all Vermiculite, all perlite, Sphagnum moss, Coconut coir, and even potting soil. They all worked just fine for keeping the humidity level where it was supposed to be which is the purpose of the incubation medium in the first place. The mixture of the vermic and perlite to me seemed easier in the long run because I didn't have to babysit it as much and constantly check on the moisture levels and add more water if it seemed to be drying out. It just seems to hold moisture for a longer period of time.

I used vermic this year and got a 100% hatch rate...

It's not hard to mix...being able to see a properly mixed batch in front of you helps a lot. A lot of people make it WAY too wet...it should almost feel like "did I really add any water?" In other words, dry to the touch.

That, and I feel like eggs were meant to sit in something - all the success of people using the no substrate method obviously contradicts that - but it makes me "feel better" knowing that they are sitting in something.

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

I used vermic this year and got a 100% hatch rate...



That, and I feel like eggs were meant to sit in something - all the success of people using the no substrate method obviously contradicts that - but it makes me "feel better" knowing that they are sitting in something.

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I agree, i also had 100% hatch rate (with vermic)and feel like if they are not in something they could roll around or be easily disturbed. Others have had success without substrate but I have done it this way for years and if it aint broke don't fix it. At least for me.

I like this thread also. Someone mentioned awhile back on a possible shortage of vermiculite? I am not sure, but I have a large bag waiting for this season at least.. maybe stores were just out of it because a lot of us breeders grabbed it off of the shelves? The only other people I know of that use it are indoor gardeners :)

Has anyone used Hatchrite? I've read some pretty good things on it and seen some people who have used it and love it. I was thinking of trying it.

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

That, and I feel like eggs were meant to sit in something - all the success of people using the no substrate method obviously contradicts that - but it makes me "feel better" knowing that they are sitting in something.

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Actually in the wild they do not sit in anything. They are just on top of the dirt. But both ways seem to work fine.

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Originally Posted by pfan151

Actually in the wild they do not sit in anything. They are just on top of the dirt. But both ways seem to work fine.

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I read it to mean that the egg mass is supported by the mothers coils in the wild ... but maybe I misunderstood.

I agree with you 100% though, as long as they hatch for you, who cares? :D

Everyone should do what works best for them and certainly not be afraid to experiment with a new methodology if it interests you ... no one on the internet can tell you what's best for your animals ... in my opinion a responsible keeper is someone that considers ALL of the information available to them and makes choices based on what they believe will work best for them and their animals. :sweeet:

-adam

Does anyone have pics and instructions on how to set up a no-substrate incubation bin? My concern with it is that the eggs could roll into contact with the sides of the bin, which would have condensation droplets. I'd love to see how people are creating these setups, since everyone using them seems to be reporting good hatch rates.

At Home Depot they have this white fluorescent light diffuser. It's a white grid of squares that are about 3/4" or so. You just cut this stuff to fit inside the tub and it is kept afloat by the perlite(the perlite floats on top of the water in the tub).

I have pictures somewhere and will post them later on today. It's just an easy set up and I would have used vermiculite if I had had a better source for it. You can't really mess up the no-sub method though.

Adam read me right...I could have worded it better, but that's basically what I was trying to say. But like I said, it just makes me "feel" better...there's so many people out there hatching perfectly healthy eggs using the no-substrate method that it apparently doesn't matter at all.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Does anyone have pics and instructions on how to set up a no-substrate incubation bin? My concern with it is that the eggs could roll into contact with the sides of the bin, which would have condensation droplets. I'd love to see how people are creating these setups, since everyone using them seems to be reporting good hatch rates.

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Here is my setup. It uses 6QT tubs.

Full tub - almost zero condensation (till the very end)
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j2...os/Inc-tub.jpg

Top Off - the light grate sits above peralite and water. The peralite keeps the water from sloshing around when you move the tubs.
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j2...side-tub-2.jpg

I used 1" PCV pices to hold the grate off the water/peralite.
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j2...inside-tub.jpg

BTW...I moved these weekly to check on them and let some air in and at no time did the eggs ever move at all.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Does anyone have pics and instructions on how to set up a no-substrate incubation bin? My concern with it is that the eggs could roll into contact with the sides of the bin, which would have condensation droplets. I'd love to see how people are creating these setups, since everyone using them seems to be reporting good hatch rates.

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I don't have any pics, but mine is basically the same as the other posters but I do not use the pvc and use a little more perilite. I just set the egg crate right on top of the perilite. 99.9% of the time my eggs are stuck together so rolling eggs are not really a problem but even the single eggs seem to get a little flat on the bottom so they don't roll either.

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Originally Posted by pfan151

I don't have any pics, but mine is basically the same as the other posters but I do not use the pvc and use a little more perilite. I just set the egg crate right on top of the perilite. 99.9% of the time my eggs are stuck together so rolling eggs are not really a problem but even the single eggs seem to get a little flat on the bottom so they don't roll either.

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And again, it seems like its all about personal preference. I just saw how easy it was to mix the vermiculite properly, I can't see see any obvious advantages there are to the no-substrate method. Never tried it personally though, so I'm not knocking it either.

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

And again, it seems like its all about personal preference. I just saw how easy it was to mix the vermiculite properly, I can't see see any obvious advantages there are to the no-substrate method. Never tried it personally though, so I'm not knocking it either.

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I agree each is personal preference.

As to the benefit I NEVER have to add additional water to this sytem and I can maintain near 100% humidity with no guess work. For me it removed any chance of mixing the verm incorrectly with too much or too little water and the risk of it drying out over the incubation period.

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Originally Posted by lord jackel

As to the benefit I NEVER have to add additional water to this sytem and I can maintain near 100% humidity with no guess work. For me it removed any chance of mixing the verm incorrectly with too much or too little water and the risk of it drying out over the incubation period.

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For whatever it's worth, in 10+ years of hatching ball python clutches, I've never had to add water with vermiculite either ... nor have I ever mixed vermiculite incorrectly.

Not sure if that helps, I just don't want anyone to get the impression that using vermiculite is "harder" than any other method ... if an idiot like me can do it, anyone can. ;)

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

For whatever it's worth, in 10+ years of hatching ball python clutches, I've never had to add water with vermiculite either ... nor have I ever mixed vermiculite incorrectly.

Not sure if that helps, I just don't want anyone to get the impression that using vermiculite is "harder" than any other method ... if an idiot like me can do it, anyone can. ;)

-adam

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I agree with you and that is why I said "For me" - it is just a choice...when I was researching about incubating I ran across numerous posts from people having to add water or mixing the verm wrong and since I can't tell when a plant needs water (till it is near death) I figured this for me was safer. ;)

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Originally Posted by lord jackel

I agree with you and that is why I said "For me" - it is just a choice...when I was researching about incubating I ran across numerous posts from people having to add water or mixing the verm wrong and since I can't tell when a plant needs water (till it is near death) I figured this for me was safer. ;)

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LOL ... I'm with ya on the plants thing!

If it helps, by using sealed egg boxes, you never have to add water because it never leaves the box ... I never understood why people put holes in their egg boxes??? Just another bad myth out there I guess.

-adam

See, I'd try the vermiculite if it wasn't $8 for a teensy bag of the fine-grain. The no-sub was just easier for me as the materials are readily available. I didn't like calling around to every family-owned garden center to ask if they had vermiculite. Vermi-huh? Whatchoosay?

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Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

See, I'd try the vermiculite if it wasn't $8 for a teensy bag of the fine-grain. The no-sub was just easier for me as the materials are readily available. I didn't like calling around to every family-owned garden center to ask if they had vermiculite. Vermi-huh? Whatchoosay?

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Wish I could help you Becky ... I get coarse grain in big 35 lb bags locally ... if you have a local Harlan distributer, they might also do vermic? Worth a try at least.

-adam

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Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

See, I'd try the vermiculite if it wasn't $8 for a teensy bag of the fine-grain. The no-sub was just easier for me as the materials are readily available. I didn't like calling around to every family-owned garden center to ask if they had vermiculite. Vermi-huh? Whatchoosay?

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I got my vermic from a local nursery. Did you check at any local greenhouses or garden stores?

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

LOL ... I'm with ya on the plants thing!

If it helps, by using sealed egg boxes, you never have to add water because it never leaves the box

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This is the one thing I am looking to upgrade next year...now if I can just find some good airtight boxes (eq to the 6QT rubbermaids I use today) .

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... I never understood why people put holes in their egg boxes??? Just another bad myth out there I guess.

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Me either...then you have to make the entire incubator humid...which is much tougher to keep it stable in a large area.

-adam[/QUOTE]

Haha, it's Waco. We have maybe 4 greenhouses and they are all tiny. No one really knew what it was and when I did find the tiny bag I have, it was covered in cobwebs and cost $8+. The perlite is easier to find, $3 for a bigger bag.

Oh, and I did both with the humidity. No holes eggboxes, everything sealed, and i humidified the incubator. Didn't get much condensation at all. Just need a bigger incubator now :)

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Originally Posted by lord jackel

This is the one thing I am looking to upgrade next year...now if I can just find some good airtight boxes (eq to the 6QT rubbermaids I use today) .

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I use larger 18qt Rubbermaid "snap lock" tubs with Reynolds press and seal over the top and under the lid. Keeps all of the moisture inside the box.

Next year when I move into a larger facility, I am going to switch to 5 gallon buckets with glass panes on top ... I like using as much medium as possible for the eggs.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I like using as much medium as possible for the eggs.

-adam

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What is the benefit of more medium? To stablize temps better or something else?

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Originally Posted by lord jackel

What is the benefit of more medium? To stablize temps better or something else?

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Large amounts of vermic inside of the egg container will create an incredibly stable thermal mass in case there are minor temp fluctuations ... having a walk-in incubator, my only real fluctuation is when I walk into and out of the room, but it's still there ... as long as you have a door with a different temp on the other side you can't avoid them.

You also need less overall water with a larger amount of vermic.

-adam

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Originally Posted by lord jackel

What is the benefit of more medium? To stablize temps better or something else?

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Exactly...it's science...more mass = more heat retention. Moreover, I feel like the no-substrate method would be more prone to temperature fluctuations because almost the entire surface area of the egg is exposed to the air around it. Being half-buried in a significant mass of substrate just seems like a more stable environment for them to be in. Just one of the reasons behind why I "feel" better about using vermic.

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

I feel like the no-substrate method would be more prone to temperature fluctuations because almost the entire surface area of the egg is exposed to the air around it. Being half-buried in a significant mass of substrate just seems like a more stable environment for them to be in. Just my thoughts...

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And for me I see having half the egg buried causing 2 differnt temp zones on the egg surface (a very stable side that is buried and a slightly cooler top that is exposed to the air whenever the boxes are opened.

I use water bottles in the incubator to stablize the temps (and the large volume of open water(comparitively) in the egg boxes do the same inside them)...so I understand what Adam is talking about more medium.

My guess is (since both methods work fine) that the temp or humidity differences are so minute that it doesn't really matter in the end.

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Originally Posted by lord jackel

And for me I see having half the egg buried causing 2 differnt temp zones on the egg surface (a very stable side that is buried and a slightly cooler top that is exposed to the air whenever the boxes are opened.

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The thing is, there's circulation going on in the egg...its alive...so there's not going to be a significant disparity in temperature within the egg itself, even if the lid is opened...

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

The thing is, there's circulation going on in the egg...its alive...so there's not going to be a significant disparity in temperature within the egg itself, even if the lid is opened...

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Ok...so then the thought about the air circulation around the egg in the non-substrate method doesn't matter either (vs. is being buried) so long as the air circulating is stable?

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Originally Posted by lord jackel

Ok...so then the thought about the air circulation around the egg in the non-substrate method doesn't matter either (vs. is being buried) so long as the air circulating is stable?

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Haha...so what's the conclusion?

It doesn't matter :rolleye2:

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Originally Posted by lord jackel

And for me I see having half the egg buried causing 2 differnt temp zones on the egg surface (a very stable side that is buried and a slightly cooler top that is exposed to the air whenever the boxes are opened.

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Once they go into the bator, I don't open my boxes until the eggs pip. I've actually done measurements with a very accurate thermometer (thanks HVAC Vaughn!!!) and the air 4 - 6 inches above the substrate and the substrate stay the same temperature in the setups that I use ... above 6 inches there is a slight fluctuation from box to box ... I believe that the vermiculite helps to stabilize the air temp in the box to some degree.

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Originally Posted by lord jackel

My guess is (since both methods work fine) that the temp or humidity differences are so minute that it doesn't really matter in the end.

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I agree 100% ... ball python eggs are for the most part extremely hardy ... I know a guy that incubates them in 6qt tubs on newspaper on a shelf near the ceiling of his snake room!!!!!! I think the only place where it might start to matter is when you're incubating mutations like caramels and super cinnies, but that's just theoretical gossip around the big breeder water cooler.

I'm absolutely not trying to take away from any method of incubation at all ... I think that they're all great if they're working for you ... I'm just sharing how I personally do things in case anyone is interested. I think that what I have to say might have some value, but if it doesn't, let me know and I will be glad to go away. :P

-adam

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

Haha...so what's the conclusion?

It doesn't matter :rolleye2:

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So true young grasshopper :P - LOL

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Once they go into the bator, I don't open my boxes until the eggs pip.

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I was under the impression (seems wrong based on this post) that the eggs needed air exchange weekly? Is this another reason you use 18qt tubs...or do they not need the exchange?

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I think the only place where it might start to matter is when you're incubating mutations like caramels and super cinnies, but that's just theoretical gossip around the big breeder water cooler.

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I would love to know more about this? Can you share - PM is fine if you prefer.

BTW...I think your insight definately has value :)

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I think that what I have to say might have some value, but if it doesn't, let me know and I will be glad to go away. :P

-adam

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You breed snakes? :confused:

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Originally Posted by lord jackel

I was under the impression (seems wrong based on this post) that the eggs needed air exchange weekly? Is this another reason you use 18qt tubs...or do they not need the exchange?


I would love to know more about this? Can you share - PM is fine if you prefer.

BTW...I think your insight definately has value :)

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I'm also interested in hearing your thoughts, Adam.

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Originally Posted by lord jackel

I was under the impression (seems wrong based on this post) that the eggs needed air exchange weekly? Is this another reason you use 18qt tubs...or do they not need the exchange?

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I used to think the same things and for a lot of years I cracked the egg boxes weekly ... Once I hit the point where I was doing 50+, 60+, and 70+ clutches per year, it just became too much work with all of those clutches, so I stopped ... and you know what? The eggs still hatched. ;)

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Originally Posted by lord jackel

I would love to know more about this? Can you share - PM is fine if you prefer.

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I don't think it's a big secret or anything? ... It's pretty common knowledge that many in the community don't necessarily believe that tweaked noses or kinks are 100% pre-determined by genetics ... and that there might be a huge underlying cause and effect related to not only temperature fluctuations during incubation, but humidity and humidity fluctuations as well. I line bred caramel to het caramel this year and didn't produced absolutely perfect caramels ... no kinks ... and not just no visible kink, but finger down the spine kink free as well ... for my caramel clutches I used a slightly dryer incubation medium, lower temps, and lots of medium in a large box that was sealed for the entire incubation period. Now, that is far from enough data to be conclusive ... and in reality, doesn't mean anything ... but a lot of people told me in the beginning of the season that 1/2 of my caramels would be kinked and the reality is that none of them were.

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Originally Posted by lord jackel

BTW...I think your insight definately has value :)

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Thanks! ... I just feel like I have to walk on egg shells lately ... seems like anytime I try to add my two cents these days people get angry with what I have to say. I'm trying to tone down my over the top style of preaching about the things that I am passionate about in favor of a kinder gentler delivery of the info that I have to share ... hope it's working. :D ;)

-adam

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

You breed snakes? :confused:

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No, I only monopolize the internet.

-adam

I thought we were breeding cockatiels? Damn.. Wrong every time!

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

No, I only monopolize the internet.

-adam

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You've definitely mastered that.

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

You've definitely mastered that.

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Since this is a thread about incubating substrate, lets please keep on topic and only speak about my master incubator skills.

Thanks.

-adam

I use Perilite if I spelled that correctly. I try to keep the eggs at 89 degrees but they sometimes get up to 90 and go down to 87. I have seen problems if they get to hot. I just use straight Perilite and have had no problems in the last three years. The only thing I suggest is don't get the mixture to wet. I have seen and heard that kills the eggs. But hey we all make mistakes I just had two snakes dead in the egg today. It happens.


Hope this helps.
Brock

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Originally Posted by Brock Wagner

Hope this helps.
Brock

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I really really like that sig Brock! ... "Hope this helps" is something that I've been using it for quite a while now and I'm glad to see it catching on with some! ... I was hoping it would start a trend of people showing real concern that the advice they give is actually helping someone somewhere.

I 100% approve!

-adam