Lesser female and Butter Female Comparsion!

I know that there is a lot of people on this forum that think they are the same thing so I just thought I would show a comparsion shot. The Lesser female is a 05 and she is on left and the Butter female is on the right and she is a 06. As you can see they are about the same size. I can tell the difference when they are babies and just come out of the egg as I feel it is easy to tell then. Again I agree that these two morphs are very similiar they just have some subtle differences like I have had great success with the Butters eating like chow hounds and the Lesser females went off of feed for about a year!

Thanks for looking.
Brock Wagner

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...3/_MG_8909.jpg

Nice pics! I think you need to send me the lesser for further comparison with my butter.

Thanks for the neg rep point from anoymous! People just don't have a clue about the real business!


marketing bs. give it a rest market crasher. lol.

Brock

While I don't condone the anonymous negative repping (come on people, have some balls!), I have to wonder how much marketing plays into this, Brock. Are all Butters better eaters than Lessers? Is this just something you have seen in your collection or has somebody specifically studied this and tracked the results? Also, isn't it true that Ball Pythons change color as they age? It would be great to see a side by side shot of two animals that were born around the same time. I can see how some might see this as a marketing ploy when Butters are being priced higher than Lessers.

Where do you see me advertising Butters for sale right now? I give my opinion and of course I get attacked! I find it amusing and it only helps my business because people who spend money see what is going on here and then come to me.


Brock

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Originally Posted by Brock Wagner

Where do you see me advertising Butters for sale right now? I give my opinion and of course I get attacked! I find it amusing and it only helps my business because people who spend money see what is going on here and then come to me.


Brock

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Are you telling me that you didn't price Butters higher than Lessers this year? Just because you don't have any right now, doesn't mean it didn't happen. I'd also like to hear your answers to the rest of the questions posed. I have no stake in this one way or another, just looking for a little info.

Jamie


It is true that ball pythons change color as they age. I am just giving my opinion of what I have seen from my experience with these two morphs. The Butters eat better for me and I have many happy customers that say they love the way their Butters eat. I also have happy Lesser customers. I am not here to fight but I am attacked often by people that don't know me or just hear things about me that are lies. Oh well! Question why don't you go after the Bells they sold me my Butter for 30k in 05 or even Ralph he says they are different. Are you saying you don't believe Ralph? Just a question not trying to get under your skin. Oh and I appreciate the comment on the negative rep I have many other examples of those if you would like to see them!

Brock

two different snakes... two different prices. If I'm correct, then butters are a bit rarer and more sought after, and as such command a higher price. It's supply and demand... If you blame the evil marketing gurus then you need to go to a closed economy. Try cuba, no evil gurus there... only the government. ;)

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Originally Posted by Brock Wagner

Question why don't you go after the Bells they sold me my Butter for 30k in 05 or even Ralph he says they are different. Are you saying you don't believe Ralph?

Brock

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That makes sense because in '05 there were no Butter combos and everyone thought they were different. Since then the Butter combos that have been made look exactly like the Lesser combos and people produce Butters that look like Lessers and vice versa. For every big breeder that says they are different, you'll find one or more saying they are the same.

Thanks Jamie I appreciate your response and agree with the comment on every breeder has a different opinion which is ok! If we all like the same thing in life it would be terribly boring! I just wanted to show a side by side shot that was all. They really need to do away with this reputation system anyways. I don't lose sleep over what some idiot who has no consquence in the business has to write anyway! The market is good and balls rock and there is so much to be done with them yet I don't get it why people can't figure out that this is about supply and demand! Oh well they are not selling snakes.


Brock

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Originally Posted by Gooseman

two different snakes.

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I think that is Jamies point are they really so different when the outcome of breeding (and apparent genetics) are the same...sort of like Grazy vs lemons in the end they are still pastels and are priced the same (just slightly different strenghts). But in this case Butters are much much higher then lessers.

Jamie correct me if this isn't the point ;)

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Originally Posted by Brock Wagner

Thanks for the neg rep point from anoymous!

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Don't take it too seriously Brock, people that do that type of thing are nothing more than spineless losers that don't deserve your time or energy.

If I had to guess, I say that it was probably just someone serving their master.

Please don't let it stop you from posting the great pictures!

-adam

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Originally Posted by Brock Wagner

Thanks Jamie I appreciate your response and agree with the comment on every breeder has a different opinion which is ok! If we all like the same thing in life it would be terribly boring! I just wanted to show a side by side shot that was all. They really need to do away with this reputation system anyways. I don't lose sleep over what some idiot who has no consquence in the business has to write anyway! The market is good and balls rock and there is so much to be done with them yet I don't get it why people can't figure out that this is about supply and demand! Oh well they are not selling snakes.


Brock

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Don't let it get you down man! It's all about making eye contact and a connection and showing your customers that you have the passion for what you do. The rest is all just background noise...

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Originally Posted by lord jackel

I think that is Jamies point are they really so different when the outcome of breeding (and apparent genetics) are the same...sort of like Grazy vs lemons in the end they are still pastels and are priced the same (just slightly different strenghts). But in this case Butters are much much higher then lessers.

Jamie correct me if this isn't the point ;)

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Personnaly, I can understand why butters are priced higher. I like the looks of butters better than lessers, and as such, a breeder will be able to get a few more bucks outta me for one. I won't hold it against them, they are running a business, and I want the darn snake. I'll pay as much as I believe it's worth, abd obviously enough people feel that butters are worth more, or their prices wouldnt be any higher as no one would "shell-out" for them. When it comes to crossing them... well that's not on everyones mind. I like the butter for the snake it is, if it produces designer offspring more attractive than the already sexy lesser, then it's a bonus, that is all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lord jackel

I think that is Jamies point are they really so different when the outcome of breeding (and apparent genetics) are the same...sort of like Grazy vs lemons in the end they are still pastels and are priced the same (just slightly different strenghts). But in this case Butters are much much higher then lessers.

Jamie correct me if this isn't the point ;)

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Half the time, I don't even know what my point is Sean. :) I'm not sure that they are much higher but there are definitely people selling them higher, hence the feelings from some that its a marketing ploy.


Good comparison on the Pastel lines. The outcome is so variable with Pastels. Good Pastels can throw ugly babies and vice versa.

Thanks Jamie I really appreciated our interaction today!


Adam you finally posted on one of my threads. Probably wasn't meant as a good thing but hey you posted so kudo's! I like to see you play nice every now and then.


Now who is Master?

Brock :rockon:

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Originally Posted by Brock Wagner

Adam you finally posted on one of my threads.

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Didn't know that it was something that you were looking forward too, you should have said something, I would have done it sooner! ;)

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Originally Posted by Brock Wagner

Probably wasn't meant as a good thing

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What are you talking about? I tried to lift your spirits about the neg rep and complimented you on your great pictures ... did you want something more?

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Originally Posted by Brock Wagner

I like to see you play nice every now and then.

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When have I not played nice Brock? I'm not one for "playing" anyway ... too busy monopolizing the internet (j/k). ;)

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Originally Posted by Brock Wagner

Now who is Master?

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I'd have no idea, stuff like that is wayyyyy over the head of a simple guy like me ... but you might want to ask kavmon ... i have a feeling that he knows? ... just sayin.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Gooseman

Personnaly, I can understand why butters are priced higher. I like the looks of butters better than lessers, and as such, a breeder will be able to get a few more bucks outta me for one. I won't hold it against them, they are running a business, and I want the darn snake. I'll pay as much as I believe it's worth, abd obviously enough people feel that butters are worth more, or their prices wouldnt be any higher as no one would "shell-out" for them. When it comes to crossing them... well that's not on everyones mind. I like the butter for the snake it is, if it produces designer offspring more attractive than the already sexy lesser, then it's a bonus, that is all.

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I agree with you that I too would be willing to pay more for a better looking animal...but should they be considered different morphs and then priced accordingly? Or should they be priced similar to how pastels are where lemons are the Hot version right now (or what more people seem to want) so they command a higher price but in the end they are still just a pastel not something really different? Is a Butter a Lesser with a better paint job or a new rarer morph? In the end the world may not care as to your point people seem willing to buy Butters at the much higher price.

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Originally Posted by lord jackel

I agree with you that I too would be willing to pay more for a better looking animal...but should they be considered different morphs and then priced accordingly? Or should they be priced similar to how pastels are where lemons are the Hot version right now (or what more people seem to want) so they command a higher price but in the end they are still just a pastel not something really different? Is a Butter a Lesser with a better paint job or a new rarer morph? In the end the world may not care as to your point people seem willing to buy Butters at the much higher price.

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Price isn't determined based on what color it is, it's all about supply and demand. Butters will come down in price, and they'll eventually price more like the Graziani Pastels and Lemons do now. Lest we not forget, it wasn't that long ago that Lemons commanded a substantially higher price than Graziani's.

Adam you have lifted my spirits tonight just by us communicating with each other! As for you on the Internet I just see you over on this website I don't see you post on Ralph's anymore? I understand you are busy. Sorry to hear about your son I had a medical scare myself in the last two weeks. Time is precious and we only have so much time in our life! Time not to stress about the little things! I know that you enjoy the snakes and I enjoy them to. The whole marketing thing is pointless to argue about. I appreciate every customer I have as you do to! Now show us some cool morphs that you have picked up this year! Don't be shy!


Brock

on the subject of butters and lessers, i find this interesting. alot of the combos seem to look alike?


unlike mojave and lesser combos!

take the butterpin for example,

first pic is the kingpin by RDR

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...RDRkingpin.jpg

second pic is the butterpin posted by Markus Jayne

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...sbutterpin.jpg

i think they look the same!!

i have seen alot of lessers and butters, i couldn't tell for sure with a 100% success rate. i think alot of people would be confused also.


vaughn

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Originally Posted by Brock Wagner

Thanks for the neg rep point from anoymous! People just don't have a clue about the real business!


marketing bs. give it a rest market crasher. lol.

Brock

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i think we have something in common, some spineless coward gave me a negative rep the other day!


vaughn

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Originally Posted by jhall1468

Price isn't determined based on what color it is, it's all about supply and demand. Butters will come down in price, and they'll eventually price more like the Graziani Pastels and Lemons do now. Lest we not forget, it wasn't that long ago that Lemons commanded a substantially higher price than Graziani's.

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I agree with you on pricing...but in the case of the Lemon vs. Graziani wasn't that mainly marketing that convinced everyone they were different? It really comes down to more yellow or more blushing and which is the buyers preference not which different morph do you want. It seems Lessers and Butters are the same analogy.

Don't get me wrong I see and agree with the business side...every industry does it those that are successful make money and those that aren't don't. (just look at the iPod which is a cheap low featured mp3 player compared to the competition but has superior marketing and a better paint job:) )

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Originally Posted by Brock Wagner

As for you on the Internet I just see you over on this website I don't see you post on Ralph's anymore?

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I've never really posted much on Ralphs site ... 239 posts in almost 4 years is about all I've managed ... but have no fear, Ralph and I were just talking on the phone today about his halloween party on the 27th and I'm sure I'll catch up with all of the RDR forum news there ... I'm thinking about going as bad santa again ... the hotties loved it! ;)

The whole monopolizing the internet thing is just a joke that I make because it's something that some cry baby said to a big breeder friend of mine about me once ... nothing serious about it. :sweeet:

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Originally Posted by Brock Wagner

The whole marketing thing is pointless to argue about.

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I completely agree ... that's why I try to stay out of those discussions ... don't let the haters drag you down ... I have my fair share of people that don't like me and I don't even give them a second thought. ;)

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Originally Posted by Brock Wagner

Now show us some cool morphs that you have picked up this year! Don't be shy!

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Ahhhh ... if only there were more hours in the day ... I'll get there ... I only have a small fraction of my stuff photographed ... some day I guess ... for right now, I'm uber focused on trying to get good pictures of my albino pin ... that little girl is my new obsession. ;)

Thank you for the kind words about my son ... I always see you logged in to my blog reading so don't be afraid to comment there as well. :sweeet:

-adam

I didn't know you can post over there on your blog.


Vaughn I am sorry to hear about that.

Brock

hey brock, i think the lessers in this thread.


http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=44625

look alot like the butter you have posted on the right!

i see some lessers dark,yellow and some are lighter and brighter too!

i see butters the same way. do yours vary too?


vaughn

My freak mojos eat better then my granite mojos! Price just weant up on the freak mojos!! Thanks for this thread guys!!!

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a3...albinos020.jpg

damn john! you had to bring the mojos in!!:D


now it will get really confusing, they all make white snakes,right?


vaughn

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Originally Posted by JASBALLS

My freak mojos eat better then my granite mojos! Price just weant up on the freak mojos!! Thanks for this thread guys!!!

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Make sure that you bring the good eaters when you come down in three weeks!!! :sweeet:

-adam

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Originally Posted by kavmon

damn john! you had to bring the mojos in!!:D


now it will get really confusing, they all make white snakes,right?


vaughn

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Yes, But a the mojo freaks will be whiter then a mojo granites.. Maybe?

This is going to turn into a poll thread I vote lesser man!!!

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Make sure that you bring the good eaters when you come down in three weeks!!! :sweeet:

-adam

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Trust me Dude, They are ALL Good feeders!! LOL.. I'll call you soon Bro..

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Originally Posted by JASBALLS

Trust me Dude, They are ALL Good feeders!! LOL.. I'll call you soon Bro..

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anytime John ... coronas are on ice and waiting! ;)

-adam

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Originally Posted by Brock Wagner

I didn't know you can post over there on your blog.


Vaughn I am sorry to hear about that.

Brock

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thanks. i just don't understand the fear of signing your name?:confused:

i've never lived that way, and have never felt the need/want to be shy ,scared, or backstabbing. :colbert:

it reminds me of the kids in school that would mumble stuff. and never have the balls to back it up!:D


john, more freak pics please!



vaughn

I feel like I'm doing well to tell a pied from a normal. :)

Seriously, to a new hobbyist most of the morph pairs mentioned look almost identical! I was stoked to see a pastel up close, though!

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Originally Posted by Swingline0.0.1

I feel like I'm doing well to tell a pied from a normal. :)

Seriously, to a new hobbyist most of the morph pairs mentioned look almost identical! I was stoked to see a pastel up close, though!

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i totally agree with you!

could you tell a butter from a lesser?:reading: .

i wonder how many could?:confuzd:

i also wonder if people are selling lessers as butters for more money$$?? :eek:

i think this is possible at least.:omfg:


vaughn

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jglass38

Could you please stop derailing an important thread with all the off topic stuff? It takes away from the meaningful discussion.

Thanks!

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yes! can we get back on topic!!

how many people think butters eat better than lessers?

where are all the lesser people with poor feeders?

how many people can really tell butters and lessers apart with 100% success?

anyone else think butters eat better than lessers?


vaughn

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kavmon

i totally agree with you!

could you tell a butter from a lesser?:reading: .

i wonder how many could?:confuzd:

i also wonder if people are selling lessers as butters for more money$$?? :eek:

i think this is possible at least.:omfg:


vaughn

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First off, NO WAY could I tell a butter from a lesser... how about some of the experts telling the newbs a few things. :)

1. What MAKES a butter and a lesser?

2. Is there that much difference genetically?

3. Is there a legitimate reason to charge more for one than the other?

I never really got why brock was neg repped- it didn't sound like a marketing ploy at all to me (the original post, that is). I just thought it was a cool comparison pic. I want to learn all about the differences between the morphs, especially the ones that look close.

I'm sure unscrupulous people are doing anything they can to make extra money by misrepresenting their stock... but they always will, won't they? Maybe we (we being those that actually know!) can educate the BPnetters about how to tell them apart, etc., so we don't get ripped off!

I would definitely post pics of anything I was thinking of buying here because I trust the opinions of some of the members. :)

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Originally Posted by Swingline0.0.1

2. Is there that much difference genetically?

3. Is there a legitimate reason to charge more for one than the other?

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2. = Genetically Nope..
3.= Legitimately Nope..

Hope I was of some help here!!

Vaughn


It is easy for me to tell them apart as babies. They do vary as all snakes do. The Butters eat good for me especially in the female dept and I have had problems with the Lessers getting up to size. I am sure that you understand when you have a snake that you hatched and you really want it to grow because you want to breed it and make a special morph. In my case I want to hatch my own lucy's so the anticipation is killing me. My only regret is that I didn't hold back more Butter females from last year. As for what other people experience with the Butters and Lessers and feeding experiences I guess we are going to have to ask them. I know Ralph has both and I think that the Bells have both. I will ask Mark next weekend what he thinks.

As for people selling Lessers as Butters I agree that is deception and uncalled for. It does make you wonder? I think that the customer should first verify that the breeder has both morphs and then decide if they should purchase. Of course there are scammers in this business we all see them everyday in the classifieds.

Also your Lessers in that thread look great first off. I can't remember which one but the one with the high orange looked a lot like a Butter! Good job on producing some great snakes. Of course I am assuming that you produced them if not sorry for saying that you did.

It is the person spending the money that makes the decision and I just hope that they are happy with the snake that they get. I also agree Vaughn that the Lesser and Butter combo's rock! There is just no comparison between what they can do compared to other morphs in my opinion. Of course some might disagree and that is cool to.

Brock

i to wonder what ralph thinks about butters feeding better than lessers? adam call the king up!


my lessers feed great, males and females!


which thread? this one, http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=44625

these are adam's


or this thread? i produced these.

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=52766

i do agree lessers/butters and their combos rock!:partyon:


vaughn

Vaughn I love that one on the bottom! I hope that it is keeper.


Brock

thanks, you know it!
both of those girls are staying here.:D slammin doubles on the weekly.:)

i'm a sucker for morph girls!:rolleye2:



vaughn

We all are suckers for morph females! You can't have enough of them. I am glad to hear that your Lessers are awesome eaters. I hope that they don't go off of feed for you around the 500 gram mark like mine did for me. I wish you the best with that project you can't go wrong!


Brock Wagner:sabduel:

nah, i think they will go off around 1000,1200 grams! just like most of my girls do.:(



vaughn

Some people breed them at that size. It is a judgement call. I don't have much luck at that size getting them to go. I hope that they stay feeding so you can have your own white snake crawling out of the egg. I can't wait for that day!

Gotta go the Huskers are losing! Go figure.
Brock

I asked Ralph about the butters and lessers and he told me all lessers came from his original platty daddy and butters are from another animal. he also said the butters have a little more yellow on there backs but then he showed me an amazing lesser that was crazy yellow! and said each animal is different and these comments are generalizations, the normals that these morphs are bred to also affect the outcome of the babies and you are gonna get uglier ones and prettier ones.

So what I got out of the conversation is lessers came from Ralphs original platty and butters are another line or source.

I think they both rock and if I'm not mistaken aren't the prices right around the same now?

I think the pastel comment is probably very accurate, I have Grazianis, lemons and blondes and they all are a little different in ther own way but still pastels that are genetically compatable. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, I like them all for different reasons be it blushing, color, flames etc...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by West Coast Jungle

I asked Ralph about the butters and lessers and he told me all lessers came from his original platty daddy and butters are from another animal. he also said the butters have a little more yellow on there backs but then he showed me an amazing lesser that was crazy yellow! and said each animal is different and these comments are generalizations, the normals that these morphs are bred to also affect the outcome of the babies and you are gonna get uglier ones and prettier ones.

So what I got out of the conversation is lessers came from Ralphs original platty and butters are another line or source.

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raul, with all the lessers and butters that ralph has, did he mention anything about butters eating better than lessers? i think he has a big enough sample to get a general idea from.:D

i've actually got a spider female that is a picky eater. but i don't go around talking about poor eating spider females...:rolleyes:


vaughn

Has anyone ever crossed a butter with a lesser and if so, what was produced?

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Has anyone ever crossed a butter with a lesser and if so, what was produced?

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BEL