For the attention of jjspirko.

Hi,

I found an intresting thread on differentiating house snakes on another forum and wondered what you thought about it?

Linky.

I posted some pics of my little male to ask his opinion as judging from his criteria it's a cape house snake - though I don't know if the clean while under the eye stripe is significant. Hopefully he will see it soon.

I'm unsure what I want his answer to be as capensis seems to be even rarer than fulliginosis - and their like hen's teeth over here.:(


dr del

Awesome info link, thanks. That helped me out, too, I have 1.1 capensis and 0.1 fuliginosis.

Jack's gonna love this thread.... Thanks for the info Dr D.

Thank you Dr. D,

I have met that guy before and traded emails I think I will join that forum and chime in there.

So many have tried to breed L. fuliginosus to L. maculatus and then they get slugs or no results at all. Likewise up until VERY recently there have never been any albino L. fuliginosus OR L. maculatus and so many have tried to breed amels to them and the amels are always Capensis or Capensis Hybrids.

What I have found

The gentleman that posted all those pics is about the most informed I have ever come across in regard to Lamprophis but there is one problem with his views on them. That is he will tell you that none of the "big three"

Fuliginosus
Maculatus
and
Capensis

Will not interbreed but that is not totally the case. The truth is you should NOT do it but it has been done with varying degress of success amoung the three and it appears the most common success has been Fuliginosus to Capensis. The issue is the hybrids are then often sterile. Many of the sub species have been interbred and this has resulted in a lot of hybrids being labled capensis and passed around.

For this reason I ONLY buy my animals from known sources. Mostly I buy wild caught from a known location or I buy captive bred from people that know their stuff. Right now I consider that to be this dude (in canada so I can't buy from him). Don at Mefezi.com and Dr. Neil Ford from UT Tyler.

One thing that will have to happen in the House Snake world for it to get as popular as it can is for these species to be accepted and understood and for breeders to understand just because you can do some much hybridization of North American colubrids does NOT mean you can do it with species that look so much more similar in Africa.

Thanks again Dr Del I have been looking to reconnect with that dude and his last thred over there seems to have vanished.

Hi,


He certainly does seem to have lots of good info - it would be good if he offered an opinion on the species I already have.:)

I spent the entire season trying to find any house snakes at all over here with no luck - let alone getting picky with sex and species. The gentleman in question also has several good threads on house snakes on fauna that I found during my search - he may be more active on there as well.


dr del

Are there actual L. fuliginosis amels now?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Are there actual L. fuliginosis amels now?

---

Don over at Mfezi.com has a male amel L. fuliginosis it is of course not for sale the good news is he is a male and will be old enough to breed in a few more months and that means to many females to establish the line.

I do predict a lot of people then trying to breed them to Maculatus with unhappy results. Hopefully more knowledge will be out in the market place by the time he is producing a lot of animals.

I know there have been several lines of Hypo fuliginosis in the past but this is the first confirmed amel I know of. He won't tell me exactly how he got it but since it is a juvie odds are it is from CB stock some were in South Africa and there are siblings of his animal out there, etc.

Oh and Dr. D I am about 99% that snake of yours is a Capensis just with some interesting markings around the face with all that white.

Hi,


Cheers.:)

It's good to know that I will be looking for the correct species at least.
Now I just need to persuade a breeder to emigrate with all his stock. :twisted:

The little stinker bit me while I was holding him and cleaning his tank tonight.:mad:

Sniffed my finger then lazily bit it as though checking what it was :taz: :D .



dr del

Now, here's a difficult question--you've all seen the head shots, now...

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r...n/Maharet1.jpg

Capensis or Maculatis? lol

Well it is NOT a maculatis at least not a pure maculatis. The lines break as in Capensis and the underlying striped shaped pattern says capensis. It is also far more red then any capensis that I have yet to see and the V is not as clean as most capensis either.

Honestly if one promised me it was a pure blood line I would have to say capensis but knowing what I do of the state of the trade today I have to say it is probably a hybrid of some sort.

Make you a deal you tell me all the details and I will explain what this one is to you in return. Can you tell me what this snake is?

http://www.jackspirko.com/images/sna...melfemale3.JPG

Well, I got them as a trio--the big proven female is clearly fuliginosis.
This girl? I have no idea. My hope is that she is a capensis, because this is the het for amel male:

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r...ion/Enkil1.jpg

As you can see, he looks like similar to the female...to me, he looks like a capensis.
The snake in your photo also looks like a capensis to me.
But all I have to go on is the site with head marking shots.

I would say both of your pics are capensis if again you believe them to be of pure blood lines. If you handed me either and said what is this that is what I would say. I thought perhaps you were asking a question you knew the answer to because that is the type of think I like to do, :P.

The pic I posted is 50% capensis and while capensis have issues breeding with fuliginosus and maculatis apparently they will breed with inornatus. :eek: Yep that gal there who is also het for amel is a capensis - inornatus cross.

I got her from Dr. Ford at UT Tyler. Inortatus lay only a few but very big eggs. Amel capensis are typicaly small even for house snakes and don't always feed well, hence many are lost very young. Neil is hoping that this cross will back breed to capensis and produce larger amel offspring. I bought this gal from him and will be letting him know my results hence two lines of this cross.

Crossing can be done with house snakes the issue has been some crosses produce sterile offspring and no one has been keeping track of what has been crossed. I have a theory that some crosses produce sterile males and fertile females. I may take a long time to prove that one though because other then this one snake I have worked like a madman to keep pure and known lines.

Well, since this male has already been with the fuliginosis female, I'll know in 2 months if that is a viable cross...lol
However, he seems completely uninterested in the apparent capensis female. I'll try after she sheds, of course, but it's a bit puzzling.

I have no idea about the differences in the species, but I have to chime in...I *LOVE* pictures of house snakes!!! I think you guys need to compare more pictures *hint-hint!* =D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Well, since this male has already been with the fuliginosis female, I'll know in 2 months if that is a viable cross...lol
However, he seems completely uninterested in the apparent capensis female. I'll try after she sheds, of course, but it's a bit puzzling.

---

Can you post a pic of your L. fuliginosus? Of course also let us know the results of your breeding efforts,

Absolutely--I thought this would be a fun project, but it's turning out to be more fun than I anticipated... lol

The headshot photos of the fuliginosis were all very blurry, but...

Here's my big girl:
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r...n/Pandora2.jpg

Um I would almost deffinitely say that is also a Capensis. I would like to see a close up of the head specificly the profile but it sure looks like it has the very clear line breaks of a capensis. If you look at the thread at Salt Water Reptiles you will notice that a clean line break is one of the factors between capensis and maculatis.

You will also note that fuliginosus have very thin almost invisible eyelines in fact some have none indeed.

Here is what I am talking about this was a big as I could make your image with its current resolution.

http://www.jackspirko.com/images/capeorfuligin.JPG

Also look at the pattern which is very typical of Capensis, chain like with a clear "stripe" layout to it. Let me explain the pattern. This snake is a "Transvaal" Phase Cape House Snake in other words a capensis but from the Highveld area also known as Transvaal. They are just a capensis just the region produces very light animals in color so the pattern is very clear. This one is actually very dark for the phase some look practicaly like Amels they are so light.

http://www.jackspirko.com/images/sna...ansvaal-10.JPG


As you can see he also has the line breaks in the eye lines. Yet his pattern is quite easy to see. I see a lot of that pattern in your animal.

Now look at this one,

http://www.jackspirko.com/images/sna...ake_male_2.JPG


With out all that great light on that snake it would look almost as dark as yours and you would see very little of the pattern. The light brings out what he really has going though. This is a "Zululand" phase capensis again just a color pattern typical of a region but still a capensis that will breed true with other capensis.

Now do you see what I mean about the pattern of capensis being "stripe like" honestly like 4 stripes one on each side and two on the dorsal.

In this shot you can see one of the parts of what I mean on the dorsal. Focus was not as good but see what I mean?

http://www.jackspirko.com/images/sna...ake_male_3.JPG

Here is an Amel Capensis note the "stripe like" nature of the pattern near the neck.

http://www.jackspirko.com/images/snakes/house004jn6.jpg

So look for that pattern in your snakes it is not always easy to see but again I see line breaks in that last pic you posted so I am thinking capensis or capensis hybrid of some type.

Note in the thread in the other forum Mike mentioned that there is a snake some think is a striped capensis and he thinks it is an "undecribed species", I personally think it is a striped capensis the only question I have is, is it genetic or related to temps during incubation. Stripes on snakes can be one or the other. Now check this out really look at all the "stripe like" lay out of the capensis I have posted and now look at the stripes on this beautiful girl who is the pride of my collection.

See what I mean? See the way there are really two stipes on the sides and two on the dorsal.

http://www.jackspirko.com/images/sna...usesnake_3.JPG

http://www.jackspirko.com/images/sna...usesnake_5.JPG

http://www.jackspirko.com/images/sna...zululand_5.JPG

If you look at the necks of the capensis you can really see the same circle pattern that makes up the stripes, it is just "tighter" in my true stripe.

As for how I know she is a full capensis, the one in the tub above that is on the branch is her sibling. Hope you enjoyed the pics and I hope I have answered more questions then I have created,

Heck now that this is a photo thred let us look at a few Maculatis for the difference. I think my pics are more clear and better show both the eye lines and the pattern of Maculatis.

First my Stud male,


http://www.jackspirko.com/images/sna...nian_red_5.JPG

See how the eye line does not break?

Next a young female under my high intesity lights so you can really see her pattern and eyelines. This is my one that bites, little b%$ch ;) Again look at the eye lines with no breaks.

http://www.jackspirko.com/images/sna...d_female_2.JPG


Another shot same snake with more detail on the body pattern. Note how it is more random then in capensis. Honestly even though they look somewhat similar if you had both in your hands and in person they are very easy to tell apart.

http://www.jackspirko.com/images/sna...d_female_1.JPG

Pics can be very decieving too like this is one of my adult female red maculatis. But because the light was not as good you don't see the pattern that well and the patters do tend to fade some as they mature.

http://www.jackspirko.com/images/sna...redhouse-1.JPG

Ain't this fun? So why no fuliginosus? I don't own any! What a shock huh!

Aha, but what the lighting does not make clear in that photo is that the line does not actually extend forward from her eye, and is absent from the front of her nose. It is also much thinner and fainter than that of the other female.
I will see if I can get a functioning camera, and take a clearer shot of the top of her head.
It would be lovely if she really is a capensis with such dark colors as to fade out the facial markings, it would make things much easier. lol