What do you think makes a species popular?

I'm always amazed by the fantastic herp species I'd never heard of! And often, these underrated reptiles end up being some of my faves. Like the beauty snakes, and the jeweled lacerta... and it mystifies me when I discover them why they're not more popular or more well known!

So it got me wondering... what do you think makes one species more popular than another? Especially when they're equally as beautiful, easy to care for, and docile?

I would have to say Availability is the key factor. I'm new to the herp scene, but in the last 2 months or so I've stumbled upon hundreds of sites/people selling various pythons and boas. I few sites selling aborneals, yet I've never even heard of the ones you've named.

What makes them available?
I have no idea, maybe how easily they're found in the wild or how difficult it is to breed. Maybe some don't do as well in captivity.

I would also have to agree with BigCeC43. I think that availability is one of the biggest things. Unfortunately, many people's (myself included) first/possibly only exposure to "pet" snakes is going to be through a petstore and what they have available, which if course would be your more commonly kept snakes. So, IMO, unless someone knows someone that is familiar with snakes of all different types, or has done alot of research on snakes and has some knowledge on them and the different types that thrive as pets and where to get them, then you get people that buy into what is common in the nearby petstores. Not that this is necessarily a bad thing, I love my snakes but it wasn't until I found this site that I was more aware of what people out there keep as pet snakes. And it wasn't until I came here that I even heard about some of the other snakes out there, like your Blue Beauties (I absolutely love yours BTW, might have to get a beauty for myself someday....)

1. Marketing - Corn snakes are marketed by breaders like crazy and many consider them the perfect first snake. There is no rational arguement for why a corn is better then many common rats, kings or milks. The care is the same and they are about the same size and all are easy to care for and many milks are simply beautiful beyound words. Corns are most popular because they are marketed like crazy and ball pythons are a very close second. Ask what is the perfect first snake in most forums and 80-95% will say a corn snake or ball the sad part is 70% or more of the people saying that won't really have a modest clue as to why, the marketing simply created the preception to the point that it is now simply that "everyone says so".

2. Ease of Breeding - Viper boas will probally never be very popular unless the secret sauce to breed them is discovered. They are docile once tamed, small and pretty but they will never make a big splash unless a breeding formula is unlocked. Marketing is always first and the top breeders are not about to market a snake unless they can consistantly produce it for a PROFIT.

3. Tempement - Black Racers and Coachwhips are beautiful but both bite a lot. People do not like pets that bite them, so neither is likely to make a big splash anytime soon.

4. Size - While a 10 foot taiwan beauty is nothing like a 8 foot boa it is still one big snake. I love mine and I know you love your blues but many are (rightfully so) intimided by them. They move fast and take some experience to handle safely if nothing else to handle safely for the snake itself. Albino Burms are now like 200 but Albino Balls are four figures because it is easy to keep a ball python. The future of Retic and Burm morphs will be in dwarfs, trust me this will go right back to item one, marketing.

5. Information - To create a market you need awareness and acceptance. Google Rufus Beak Snake you won't find much info yet. I predict they are the next big colubrid boom to occur but not yet because there is no awareness on them. The good news here is this one factor can CREATE a market for the entreprenuer. If you want Blue Beauties to become envouge, the be an apostle for them. Create tons of web pages about them, get info from many keepers and create discussion groups around them. People often fear keeping a snake they can't get a lot of info on even when the truth is their care is just the same as a corn or king with a slightly larger viv.

Probably more then you wanted to know but as a business person this is the way I see the issue. Hope that helps,

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Originally Posted by jjspirko

1. Marketing - Corn snakes are marketed by breaders like crazy and many consider them the perfect first snake. There is no rational arguement for why a corn is better then many common rats, kings or milks. The care is the same and they are about the same size and all are easy to care for and many milks are simply beautiful beyound words. Corns are most popular because they are marketed like crazy and ball pythons are a very close second. Ask what is the perfect first snake in most forums and 80-95% will say a corn snake or ball the sad part is 70% or more of the people saying that won't really have a modest clue as to why, the marketing simply created the preception to the point that it is now simply that "everyone says so".

2. Ease of Breeding - Viper boas will probally never be very popular unless the secret sauce to breed them is discovered. They are docile once tamed, small and pretty but they will never make a big splash unless a breeding formula is unlocked. Marketing is always first and the top breeders are not about to market a snake unless they can consistantly produce it for a PROFIT.

3. Tempement - Black Racers and Coachwhips are beautiful but both bite a lot. People do not like pets that bite them, so neither is likely to make a big splash anytime soon.

4. Size - While a 10 foot taiwan beauty is nothing like a 8 foot boa it is still one big snake. I love mine and I know you love your blues but many are (rightfully so) intimided by them. They move fast and take some experience to handle safely if nothing else to handle safely for the snake itself. Albino Burms are now like 200 but Albino Balls are four figures because it is easy to keep a ball python. The future of Retic and Burm morphs will be in dwarfs, trust me this will go right back to item one, marketing.

5. Information - To create a market you need awareness and acceptance. Google Rufus Beak Snake you won't find much info yet. I predict they are the next big colubrid boom to occur but not yet because there is no awareness on them. The good news here is this one factor can CREATE a market for the entreprenuer. If you want Blue Beauties to become envouge, the be an apostle for them. Create tons of web pages about them, get info from many keepers and create discussion groups around them. People often fear keeping a snake they can't get a lot of info on even when the truth is their care is just the same as a corn or king with a slightly larger viv.

Probably more then you wanted to know but as a business person this is the way I see the issue. Hope that helps,

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Excellent points. Just one thing, IMHO, corns are recommended over milks/kings/other rats because I think they tend to be better behaved. The few other colubrids I've had experience with weren't mean or anything, but they were more "feisty" not to mention I've never been musked by a corn, but I have by a king (disgusting!). That being said, if someone had access to a well-mannered other colubrid then I would have no qualms about recommending it over a corn if they really wanted it.

In addition to Jack's points(shich were very good), I would also like to add a few:

1. Ease of care. A new keeper killing a pet within a few months is a big turnoff to some. Also, if a breeder sells a reptile to a person and that reptile dies because the care was too difficult, the chances that the person will be a repeat customer decreases. People like easy....Why do you think Crested Geckos have become so popular? Easy, Easy, Easy ;)

2. Specialist. Most keepers avoid specialist. Some snakes are strictly lizard eaters, frog eaters, and egg eaters. People like animals that are easy to feed. You will never see Eastern Hognoses or vine snakes as a top pet snake. With lizards, horned lizards are a good example because they eat only harvester ants; yet the are some of the neatest creatures out there.

3. Cost. For both the consumer and the producer. This includes the cost of the initial animal purchase as well as vet care, housing, food, and husbandry equipment.

4. Incubation time. or 'quick turnover' if you look at it in business terms. Some species of lizards take almost a year to incubate the eggs. Not a couple of months like most snakes. Other eggs go through diapause and must be incubated at various tempeatures. If you had to wait a year for your ball python eggs to hatch how would that change your business?

That is just a few other factors that I think are part of the equation....and I am sure there are several more ;)

If you had to wait a year for the BPs to hatch, the market would probably stay high for longer. <G>

This is a great thread.

Two things, and two things alone makes a species popular:

Cost and availability.

Want to know how to find a popular species? Look on craigslist for people who are giving away pets. Bearded dragons, ball pythons, green iguanas and savannah monitors is virtually all you'll see. Why? Because they're cheap and they are at Petco/Petsmart. And yet people who impulsively buy them for their kids or themselves have no idea what it's really like to take care of them. On one hand I applaud them for trying to give them up to someone who can care for them but you know that nine times out of ten one ignorant pet owner is just going to give their pet away to another ignorant pet owner. They're destined to be on craigslist every three months until someone can rescue them.

There are breeders of monitors who refuse to breed savannahs. Because they are bad monitors? Nope. But because they don't want to be a part of this cycle of disposable pets. Most people are good people but when it comes to pets they don't take anything but cats and dogs seriously. They have this mentality that if it's small and lives in an aquarium it's disposable. It's disgusting.

Most people who buy reptiles, amphibians and other exotic pets have no business doing so.

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Originally Posted by jwarriner

Two things, and two things alone makes a species popular:

Cost and availability.

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Yet so many things influence cost and availability that it can't be that simple. While cost and availability maybe be the two main factors, there are so many facets that effect the costs and availablity.

Comparing ball pythons to bearded dragons is a good example.

Ball pythons are massively imported causing their availability to increase. It is illegal to import bearded dragon so what you see in the US is 100% CBB. Yet they are both in the same situation.

If bearded dragons were not so easy to breed, did not produce large clutches, and were complicated to keep, they wouldn't be as available; therefore, less popular. Get my point?

If importation of ball pythons was stopped, how much would availability drop? How would that drop effect popularity?

Legal issues is another factor that plays into how popular an reptile is in captivity.

How many kingsnake keepers are there in Georgia since legislation prohibits them? Kingsnakes are one of the most available snakes out there....yet they can not own them.

How will nile monitor ownership be effected by the new Florida laws? Sure they may still be available and cheap, but there are now legal issues involved with keeping them.

How about 10,001 morph possibilities?

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Originally Posted by daniel1983

If importation of ball pythons was stopped, how much would availability drop? How would that drop effect popularity?

Legal issues is another factor that plays into how popular an reptile is in captivity.

How many kingsnake keepers are there in Georgia since legislation prohibits them? Kingsnakes are one of the most available snakes out there....yet they can not own them.

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On BPs I don't think it would matter much any more. Go to any herp show and you find breeders practiclly giving away normals even ones very close to breeding age. The import market for balls kept prices in check for a long time but there are thousands of breeders now, hopefully soon it will kill off the market. Honestly the constant search for the next killer morph is doing more to keep it going then the general market today.

Legal issues do have an impact and Georgia is one of the most retarded states in the US (government wise). Their laws are moronic beyound words even a morph corn snake is illegal. :mad: That said many many residents of Georgia keep corns, kings, etc. At least for now no one is searching homes or anything. If I were ever forced to move to GA I would damn well keep my corns and simply keep my mouth shut about it.

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Originally Posted by daniel1983

In addition to Jack's points(shich were very good), I would also like to add a few:

1. Ease of care. A new keeper killing a pet within a few months is a big turnoff to some. Also, if a breeder sells a reptile to a person and that reptile dies because the care was too difficult, the chances that the person will be a repeat customer decreases. People like easy....Why do you think Crested Geckos have become so popular? Easy, Easy, Easy ;)

2. Specialist. Most keepers avoid specialist. Some snakes are strictly lizard eaters, frog eaters, and egg eaters. People like animals that are easy to feed. You will never see Eastern Hognoses or vine snakes as a top pet snake. With lizards, horned lizards are a good example because they eat only harvester ants; yet the are some of the neatest creatures out there.

3. Cost. For both the consumer and the producer. This includes the cost of the initial animal purchase as well as vet care, housing, food, and husbandry equipment.

4. Incubation time. or 'quick turnover' if you look at it in business terms. Some species of lizards take almost a year to incubate the eggs. Not a couple of months like most snakes. Other eggs go through diapause and must be incubated at various tempeatures. If you had to wait a year for your ball python eggs to hatch how would that change your business?

That is just a few other factors that I think are part of the equation....and I am sure there are several more ;)

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:rockon: Absoultely awesome add on. I would like to combine your points and mine into an article at some point if you are ok with it. I would give you credit in the byline of course,

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Originally Posted by jjspirko

On BPs I don't think it would matter much any more. Go to any herp show and you find breeders practiclly giving away normals even ones very close to breeding age. The import market for balls kept prices in check for a long time but there are thousands of breeders now, hopefully soon it will kill off the market. Honestly the constant search for the next killer morph is doing more to keep it going then the general market today.

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i don't think we are even close to producing the same quantity of cbb normals compared to imports.

i don't know of any breeders striving to produce normals in mass quantity.



vaughn

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Originally Posted by kavmon

i don't think we are even close to producing the same quantity of cbb normals compared to imports.

i don't know of any breeders striving to produce normals in mass quantity.



vaughn

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Is that because there is not real money in it? That would be my guess but again like I said if you want a CB normal it is not hard to find them for like 25 bucks for neonates and perhaps 50 -65 bucks for very well started young adults. There had to be over a hundred in those ranges at the last Lone Star Expo which is a quite small regional show,

for me, it's the wow factor of morphs. one look and i was hooked.


imports come in by the thousands and tens of thousands every spring/summer. i just don't think the cbb ones are close to that. maybe one day? fresh blood, new morphs will be around for years to come, imo.


vaughn

My personal OPPINION varries.
-Combinations and variety. You aren't gonna get bored with the same old normals when there is always something new coming out to keep us on our toes
-Availability. It seems every big new species is readily available. Balls, Boas, Bloods, Retics, GTP are all or have all been heavily imported in the present and recent past.
Just a couple of my idead I have put together over the years as to why some species are more popular and others aren't.

Again, my oppinion and thoughts, not fact at all

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Originally Posted by jjspirko

:rockon: Absoultely awesome add on. I would like to combine your points and mine into an article at some point if you are ok with it. I would give you credit in the byline of course,

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Sure but I am sure you could take the points and word them a bit better than myself....ha ha ;)

I find this topic very interesting. It is kinda funny that the most popular animals are not that way because people 'like' them...it has a little more to it than just people liking the looks of the snake.

I think it is interesting how animals can change in popularity as well. What causes that change? How did we go from corn snakes to ball pythons? From leopard geckos to crested geckos? Very interesting to think about.

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Originally Posted by daniel1983

Sure but I am sure you could take the points and word them a bit better than myself....ha ha ;)

I find this topic very interesting. It is kinda funny that the most popular animals are not that way because people 'like' them...it has a little more to it than just people liking the looks of the snake.

I think it is interesting how animals can change in popularity as well. What causes that change? How did we go from corn snakes to ball pythons? From leopard geckos to crested geckos? Very interesting to think about.

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An article in Reptiles Magazine Is always a sure fire way to get a species a kick start

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Originally Posted by Pork Chops N' Corn Bread

An article in Reptiles Magazine Is always a sure fire way to get a species a kick start

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ha ha....yep.

It is kinda sad that most people are so easily influenced by something like that. But most people do not spend hours looking up random reptiles on the internet like most of us..ha ha..or at least me. If the animal is not in the latest reptiles magazine or on display in a pet store, they have no idea it exists. Popularity has alot to do with marketing....but then again, if you could not produce the animals or had trouble keeping them, what would be the purpose of marketing them when nothing is available to sell?

Niche magazines can do that in so many worlds it is pretty much a constant. Like I hunt and so I read a lot of hunting and gun mags. I remember back when surplus Swedish Mausers were like three for a hundred bucks (back in the 80s) then a Guns and Ammo did an article about how accurate they are and how to sporterize them. They went to a hundered a piece over night, today any orginals in good shape left command big bucks. Any time a new gun comes out or a new round the marketing department makes the full court press to get it in all the gun mags and like wild fire they take off. Me I am happy with my old (made in 1917) 30-06.

With snakes though you can really understand why it works so well. I don't think it is so much that people are convinced by the article that the snake is a great captive so much as it makes they aware of the species and makes them comfortable with the husbandry.

I also think people like to have something different, etc. I know I do that is why I put so much effort into house snakes, they are different and not much work has been done with them yet. There is still so much to find out, learn and create.

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Originally Posted by jjspirko

Niche magazines can do that in so many worlds it is pretty much a constant. Like I hunt and so I read a lot of hunting and gun mags.

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We used to hunt a piece of public land in North Louisiana all the time. It was never that crowded. Someone shot a big buck and got it published in a magazine......now the place is overrun with people.

If you get your reptiles magazine early, watch the kingsnake classifieds. You can make some interesting observations. The new issue is going to showcase Uros.....watch and see how many of the uro adds or want uro ads pop up(or the lack there of a month later).....ha ha....it would be an interesting little experiment....

I just got December today, insanely early, so I can say--in addition to Uros, check Kingsnake for Sailfin dragon ads, next.
Also Brookesia, and monkey-tailed skinks.

If the theory's right, then all 4 of those should show more activity than usual.

I got mine today, too. And I don't even see Uros on the front cover, unless it's under the address label. :P That IS an interesting phenomenon to look into though, Daniel.


And yes...it does seem insanely early to get the December issue 4 days into October...but it's quite typical for Reptiles.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

I just got December today, insanely early, so I can say--in addition to Uros, check Kingsnake for Sailfin dragon ads, next.
Also Brookesia, and monkey-tailed skinks.

If the theory's right, then all 4 of those should show more activity than usual.

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Ya....Brookesia would probably be the one to really watch since they are low, low cost when compared to the others. Dwarf chameleons are awesome.

I remember talking to someone just after the crested gecko issue came out and all of the wholesale (buy 10 or more) ads were gone within a week. Pet stores and keepers must have been looking to cash in on the cover animal of the week.

Personally, I noticed ads pop up for fire skinks and mossy frogs when those two issue ran. I had never seen ads for those two before then.

Wow, lots of fascinating responses! I'm really intrigued at how little it has to do with appearance or even docility. Thanks guys, this is really interesting and helpful to wrap my mind around!

I think both appearance and temperment have a huge effect.

Temperment - Consider the two I mentioned Coachwhips and Black Racers both are very pretty snakes. A large black racer is simply stunning honestly but they bite and to me that is the biggest reason they are not kept much. Coachwhips are more common in captive and they are also more docile in time. Even though Coachwhips tame down I have found you are going to bleed a bit with a WC to get them there. CB may be different but I don't know anyone breeding coachs yet. I know a few considering it.

Appearence - Consider Texas Rat Snakes they are just plain muddy looking hence no one seems to want them. They are not really mean if Captive Bred and they are easy to breed. Now some are starting to breed high orange and those are getting a bit of traction, it is all about appearence there and lucy Texas rats were really hot say 7 years ago.

On appearence in my world it is very true of House Snakes. Try to sell a plain old brown Fuliginosus or Maculatus and well it ain't easy. Reds though move, Zululand Capes are easy too or say any hypo or amel will command top dollar.

Well, yeah, I didn't mean to suggest they have NO effect. ;) Just that there's a lot more factors there than I realized, having thought those two would be the end all be all when I started this tread.

btw, saw a couple of baby African house snakes at the expo down here and thought of you! Had a hard time getting a good pic tho.