Mouse colony bedding

I was trying to put together an upkeep cost list to see what it would cost me to run a small breeding colony of 9 females and 3 males. So naturally I have no experience with this and have a few questions.

Bedding:

What kind of bedding is best to keep down smell and to keep the mice healthy and happy? I was thinking of using newspaper since I can get it for free but if that is not good for them, I can switch to something else. Bedding that is easily aquired are Carefresh and Aspen.

Food:

What kind of lab blocks are best? I will be looking over the Rodent mix in the sticky above. Should both the mix and the lab blocks be offered? What else should be offered to promote a good healthy colony? I will be buying from Petsmart so the only lab block I can find is Kaytee Forti-Diet. Is this ok for them? And how long will 5lbs last 11 mice?

Caging:

I will probably be using tubs, but I've heard that mice like to chew through the plastic. Any way of preventing this? I know to cut out a section of the lid and attach hardware cloth to the underside via hotglue. Then there is the water bottle. I've heard to solder (sp) a hole for the sipper piece and attach a piece of hardware cloth around that so the mice don't chew that hole. Any thing else? What about providing things for them to chew on like chew sticks and such?

Water:

I plan on using tap water. Should I de-chlorinate it? I have also heard that adding vanilla helps with the smell. If so, how much vanilla per gallon as I will probably have a gallon jug sitting by just for the mice?

Additional Costs:

Should toys, nesting boxes, tubes, feeding dishes, additional snacks be provided? If so, what? Anything else I am forgetting?

Aspen is good to use, I find carefresh too dusty and the babies end up with their eyes and noses all crusted up from it. Not good for baby lungs. Newspaper alone is not very absorbing and will start to stink on the second day. EW

Lab blocks: Mazuri, Harlan Teklad. NO Kaytee. They are known for producing crappy feeds, regardless of species the food is for. Just not high quality. Look up Mazuri feeds online and find a feed store near you that carries it, or can order it. 50lb bags usually run $18-$22 and last forever.

Tubs are fine. Just be sure to use 1/4" hardware cloth and not 1/2". The hoppers can get out of the 1/2". You can use the black cement mixing tubs, make a wood frame out of 1x2's or 2x2's, attach hardware cloth to it, make a food/water bottle hopper and you're good to go. I can take pictures of my individual tubs if you want a visual. They are EASY to make and really easy to clean out.

Water: tap water is fine and the vanilla really helps. You can add a few tablespoons to each gallon of water, it sure won't hurt them. Baking soda sprinkled in the bedding each time you change it out, also helps.

If you want, you can put a wheel in with the mice. They are neurotic little boogers and like the exercise :) Won't have to worry about food bowls, but if you have shredded paper or kleenex boxes/tissue rolls, just throw it in for extra bedding.

I can get Aspen cheap at reptile shows. or for about $12 for a 4cu ft bag. How long will a bag that size last me with 11 tubs. Also what size tubs are good? Males will be alone unless breeding and females will go 3-4 to a tub. Then there will be the feeder tubs where the offspring will be sexed and seperated.

I would love pictures of the tub set ups. I will look up the feed. Thanks so much for your help. My fiance and I are not experienced in this at all and once we move, it will be a 30 min drive to and from the petstore where we get our feeders. With four snakes and another ball python on the way (plan on getting another once we move) breeding may be our best option.

Definitely. Those gas prices can add up.

Also, if your corn and kingsnake are eating f/t, you can hold back a whole litter every so often to euthanize and freeze for later use. One of those FoodSavers would be a good investment if they do well on frozen. They last alot longer when vacuum packed.

Aspen usually lasts a good long while. It should last a few changes. You can also get some of that recycled paper pelleted cat litter(Yesterday's News) to use for the bottom of the tubs, and that would help it last longer. Or you could just get the Equine Fresh pellets from Tractor Supply or any other feed store. HUGE bag and it goes a long way. Home Depot may even carry the stove pellets, but I haven't ever asked. They do carry the cement mixing tubs(which are really impossible for mice to chew out of) and they run about $5 each. I think they are about 20" across and 30" long.. I could be wrong.. They do have alot of floor space though and a group of 1.4-1.6 would work great.

So.. If you wanted to have 2-3 tubs for breeding, 1 for resting moms(give them a break after 3-4 consecutive litters or when you notice them looking a bit tired), and 2 tubs for separated grow-outs, that should work well. I honestly wouldn't put males back together after they have bred because they may smell females on a particular male and kill him. I would leave them each in their respective tubs and either cycle all of the females out at once and replace with different females, or just remove him to a smaller holding tank/tub when the girls need a rest.

Mice do well with harem breeding, while rats do not.

Would it be ok to not do harem breeding? I think the way I figured this to was to have 9 females and 3 males. Each male is in his own tub, then there are 3 maternity tubs and a vacation tub. 3 females to each male, 1 female getting bred per week, that way we have a litter coming in every week and have a constant supply rather than all the females breeding at once and having a ton of babies all at once.

As for the corn and king, they do eat f/t and I think what my fiance and I decided to was, any extra from each litter would be euthanized and frozen for their meals. The corn is on small mice and the king should be upgrading to hoppers by winter.

You have to remember that they could get very stressed and end up killing each other. Introductions with mice take forever and a day, so it's really best to keep everyone together until you absolutely have to separate them. It could be 3-4 months before any of those females becomes pregnant, or it could be 3 weeks. You just never really know.

It will usually take longer than a week for a female to get pregnant. They have to get used to each other and it may take more than one heat cycle for her to become pregnant at all. They go into heat every 4-5 days and she may skip a few heat cycles if she's not comfortable. She can even resorb the babies if she's stressed and doesn't feel it's a suitable environment.

With the Ball Pythons, they will be on adult mice soon if they aren't already. So really, having 3 litters within a few days of each other won't be much of a big deal. They still need to grow up a bit and gain some muscle mass after they are weaned. The males tend to grow faster than the females of the same age, so you could feed those off first, and save the females for the next week or whenever.

You could have a tub of keeper grow-out females, and when your current females are needing a rest after 3-4 consecutive litters, you can take 3 females out and replace them with 3 new females. Then your older females can have a break while the new females are getting introduced and getting pregnant. Then you could switch them back and put them with a new male.

Ok, so a good set up would be three male tubs with 3 females per male. Keep the females with the male unless they are pregnant, then move them to a maternity tub where she will give birth and raise babies. After 3 weeks of gestation, and 3 weeks of raising and weaning, move her back in with the male?

So as far as number of tubs we are thinking 3 harem tubs, one for each male, say 2-3 maternity tubs, 1 vacation tub, and 2 feeder tubs.

I believe what Becky is saying is to not use maternity tubs at all and just let them do their thing. Then after 3-4 litters cycle out the females to rest for a bit (or just feed them off) and cycle in some new females.

Exactly what she said above. It would cause more harm to move them out than it would be to just keep them in for 3-4 litters and then give them a rest for 2-3 weeks. Then, back in with a male for another go around.

If you kept moving them in and out, back and forth, they are going to get stressed, possibly eat their babies/each other, not produce well(intro time plus time it takes for her to even go into heat, then to even get pregnant might be months), plus other things. Harem breeding is where they are left together for an amount of time, then removed to rest and switched out with others.

If you keep removing them and putting them back with another male after their litters are weaned, they are going to have to get reintroduced, which could take months(and has) and then you've just wasted that time that those mice could have been producing for you.

With rats and the harem breeding(at least in my and others' experience), they stress out, steal each others babies(babies get killed or hurt) and hoard them, become used up too quickly. It can cause a drastic decrease in their lifespan. Something I haven't noticed with mice.

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Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

Exactly what she said above.

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She? I've got evidence to the contrary...

Well what's your name then silly? I just say she out of default! :)

What the above human being said! hehe

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Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

Well what's your name then silly? I just say she out of default! :)

What the above human being said! hehe

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I'm Jim, nice to meet you. I should probably put together a sig, now that I've got a decent collection going...

Well good to meet you too, Jim :)

And yes, go make a sig! Much easier to have a peeing match with someone if you know their name, LOL! :D

I should put my name in my sig, even though its in my username.

Will the male mice try and kill the offspring at all? Ok, so maternity tubs are out. That brings me down to 3 harem tubs, a vacation tub, and 2 feeder tubs. Sound about right? And I don't know if I'm going to be making a rack for this, but if I do or I don't, what size tub is appropriate for a male and 3 females plus thier litters? Size for vacation and feeder tubs?

And Becky, not to get off track, but I've noticed a lot of your herps have names ending in "th". You wouldn't happen to read the Dragonriders of Pern series, would you?

If you want to use regular tubs instead of the cement mixing tubs(less of a chance for them to chew out with the latter), I would get like 27qt tubs and just cut most of the lid out and replace with 1/4" screen. Those run about $3 apiece and are pretty good sized. The cement mixing tubs are only $5 anyway and are thicker plastic(plus kitties can't see in either).

The wood to make the frames is around $2 for an 8-12ft piece, and Home Depot can cut it down for you. Just so you have a staple gun, you'll be ok making the frames.

And yep, the tub set up you have planned out sounds good. 3 for breeding, 1 for resting and 2 for separated weaned mice to grow up.

Yes, I have read most of the series and love it. The Balls remind me alot of the dragons, so they get those names. I don't know what I'm going to do if I run out of names though! :) Here's a good link for everyone's names if you want to look through it!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charact...riders_of_Pern

I love the series as well. My first few books was the HarperHall trilogy then I moved on to the other books. I'm re-reading the first book, Dragonflight. Awsome series!

Would I set the cement mixing tubs up just like any other tub, with the hardware cloth on the lid and such? Any pictures? I do not have a staplegun though. :(

I'll be getting some pictures tomorrow when I go out to my vet's place(where I keep my rodents and it's my QTine place too). Short tail python pictures too!

You can easily use the other tubs though, they work just as well. They do fine in either short or taller tubs, but with the shorter ones you don't have to use as much hardware cloth for the food/water bottle hopper.

A glue gun works very well in attaching the hardware cloth to the plastic, or you can make small holes with a soldering iron and use zip ties(cable ties) to hold the metal onto the plastic. Both work fine.

If you don't have a staple gun, they aren't too expensive. You just will need one to attach the hardware cloth to the wood frame if you use the cement mixing tubs.

Up to you! :) I'll take pictures tho.

Ah ok. I will check prices on staple guns tomorrow then. Is this rack you are describing the DIY mouse rack in the sticky? If so, I'll take a look at that.

Nope, mine isn't a rack, they are just individual cement mixing tubs with a wood/hardware cloth frame that sits tightly over the tub. I need to make a rack though since I'm getting tired of buying 200 mice every 3-4 weeks, LOL

Wow, thats a lot of mice. :eek: Would a rack take up less space than individual tubs?

Yeah, a rack would definitely take up alot less space. I know Sarah's mouse rack only takes up about a 3x2ft space in a corner. Looks really nice and is very practical for having alot of mice around.

The individual tubs are ok, especially if you have a utility rack you can sit them on just to keep them out of the way.

I need to get to building a rack. When I bring home 200 mice, about 60 come home with me to feed everyone, and the rest are divided up between 3 tubs. They do well this way, I just need to start breeding more of them than I currently am. I guess $100 a month really isn't that much to feed 40 snakes, right?

What is your het Pied named after? Zaphod? Wasn't he in Traveler's Guide to the Galaxy or something like that(I have no memory whatsoever)?

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Bedding:
What kind of bedding is best to keep down smell and to keep the mice healthy and happy? I was thinking of using newspaper since I can get it for free but if that is not good for them, I can switch to something else. Bedding that is easily aquired are Carefresh and Aspen.

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I would not recommend newspaper alone you will soon find out that it does not absorb very well and it will stink very quickly

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Food:
What kind of lab blocks are best? I will be looking over the Rodent mix in the sticky above. Should both the mix and the lab blocks be offered? What else should be offered to promote a good healthy colony? I will be buying from Petsmart so the only lab block I can find is Kaytee Forti-Diet. Is this ok for them? And how long will 5lbs last 11 mice?

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Kaytee diet is junk if you ask me, I would recommend an healthy diet Mazuri mix with quality dog food, I also mix some cheerios and pasta in. Healthy diet is very important!

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Caging:
I will probably be using tubs, but I've heard that mice like to chew through the plastic. Any way of preventing this? I know to cut out a section of the lid and attach hardware cloth to the underside via hotglue. Then there is the water bottle. I've heard to solder (sp) a hole for the sipper piece and attach a piece of hardware cloth around that so the mice don't chew that hole. Any thing else? What about providing things for them to chew on like chew sticks and such?

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Well it depends on the tubs, if you use tubs that have ridge that will be ground for chewing, I use small kitty litter pans (no ridge) and have no problem (0 chewing). this is what I use http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...r/MiceRack.jpg (DIY available on this forum comes down to about 30$ to make)

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Water:
I plan on using tap water. Should I de-chlorinate it? I have also heard that adding vanilla helps with the smell. If so, how much vanilla per gallon as I will probably have a gallon jug sitting by just for the mice?

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I use regular tap water and add 2-3 drops of vanilla extract in their bottle

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Additional Costs:
Should toys, nesting boxes, tubes, feeding dishes, additional snacks be provided? If so, what? Anything else I am forgetting?

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I don't use toys, newspaper is used for nesting, no feeding dish they eat through the hardware cloth which eliminate the waste, snacks are given on cleaning day. (Dog Milk Bone)

I will definatly look into that DIY rack.

And Xefaud is named after Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy. My fiance liked that movie and we both liked the name so it just stuck. Sadis is named after a fictional character I had for a text-based roleplay a while back. A sadistic wolf. When Sadis came home she was very nippy and when we fed her one night, she actually struck the live feeder, and didn't bother squeezing it. She just started eating. Sadis is short for sadistic.

For mice, the best to control odor is a pelleted bedding. Recycled newspaper pellets, aspen pellets, alfalfa pellets, "Woody Pet" pellets, or even wood stove pellets.

I am currently using wood stove pellets from Menards, 40 lbs for $4. This is FAR cheaper than any other type of pelleted bedding and works very well.

Forget PetSmart for rodent food. You will pay FAR too much there. The only decent rodent food they sell is Mazuri in 2 lb bags for $6. This is $3 per lb, almost 10 times what you should be paying.

Check feed stores or local reptile shows or feeder breeders. Mazuri 6F is good, 50 lbs for about $18-$22. The best quality available is Harlan 2018, used by most of the local feeder breeders, I get it at the local show for $13 for 33 lbs.

Yup, currently picked up a bag of Cellsorb, and the wood pellets for the furnace. The major difference is first of the smell. Cell sorb does not do nearly as good of a job as wood pellets. BUT they are exceptionally dustless. I use it for my boy with sensitive allergies and he's doing SOOOOOO much better on it. We bought the 40 lb bag for 17.99 from Soldan's. (MI only sry, havent seen any at petsmart around here, and anyways I think they want 17.99 for a 12 lb bag.)

We are also trying the regular wood burning pellets for the stove as they are pretty much the same as Equine fresh and others. So far, they've been great! They do have a "woodier" smell than the Equine fresh. I don't know what kind of wood this is made from, but I believe it isn't pine. I don't see pine as being very efficient for long burning. We bought the 40 lb bag from TSC for Approx 4$. (Lord Jackel, I was reading the pallet price of 215$, not the bag... The numbers are so tiny for the bag while the pallet price is huge. :/)
It doesn't break down and get as fluffy, but we had a leak in one of the tubs the other day, they smushed a hide right into the sipper valve, (I dont know for how long) and the pellets did great absorbing all the liquid. It was all broken down into sawdust, but no actual liquid anywhere. Great test of absorbency.