Ugh..

So the 150g female Ball I have here has been being treated with Baytril and nebulized Amikacin since 9/1. She's been staying steady, not getting any better, not any worse.

My vet did a culture and we sent it off last Monday. What came back was really fun.. Ok.. not.

She has gram negative nonfermentative bacteria. Which is resistant to mostly everything. YAY... *sigh*

It's susceptible to a few things, like marbofloxacin(which costs an arm, leg and your first born child), as well as Trimethoprim Sulfamethoxazole and Ticarcillin.

Marbofloxacin is out of the question, it's over $200 for a tiny bottle, and Becky ain't got that kinda money.

I do have some 800mg + 160mg(I think) of the Trimethoprim sulfa antibiotic, but I would have to get it compounded and into a TEENSY dose. The dose for that is 30mg/kg.. Wow.. It would also have to be given orally via a RRFT.

Ticarcillin is also out of the question because it's a human drug(it IS injectable though.. Damnit).

So.. Anyone have any suggestions? Since the Trimethoprim sulfa drug is the only thing that is going to work and be effective, will it work well enough since it's going to be given orally? She's being kept pretty warm and humid so it should absorb pretty quickly.

Thanks in advance!

OH! And if I ever want to buy a snake from Zookeeper in Austin again, tell me NO! NO NO NO!

Oh no :(

That's just horrid news, Becky. I was hoping for something better!

Still haven't gotten the call from my vet that I've been dreading.

I'm sorry to hear about your test results. We can only do what we can do. I wish you and your snake the best. I know how hard this is.

Would Ceftazidime do anything?

So from my research, this apparently is a very new bacteria that is resistant to mostly everything. Cephalosporins can't touch it, and it's only susceptible to newer antibiotics(equals expensive) or antibiotics that are combinations(like the sulfa drugs).


From reading, I am informed that the bacteria comes is water and soil born, so this snake was either exposed to wild caught animals(or a cage they were in) that had this bacteria or was allowed to drink water in africa. It is usually confused with Pseudomonas.

What she has is called: Achromobacter xylosoxidans

She's still doing ok and will be getting another injection of Baytril as well as being nebulized with the Amikacin.

All of these reports will be going with me when I get back to Austin. I want the pet store to know what they have so they can stop getting wild caught animals in. They are usually a very clean, reputable store.

Becky...how contagious is it to your other animals? It would seem if it is soil/water based there would be a higher incident of it in snakes (amoung other animals)...especially if resistant to most antibiotics?

It's found mostly in humans, usually people with cystic fibrosis and other respiratory related illnesses. I could not find ANYTHING at all about incidence in animals/reptiles.


I don't share anything of hers with other animals, and I mean anything. She's in the very bottom of one of my baby racks with about 4 shelves in between her and the next snake. I would take her out to the school, but if I do, then I can't give her the shots(I don't want the vet to have to do it). I spray Parv-O-Way or chlorhexidine on the floor around where her tub is, and I also wipe down the shelves she has been in contact with(as well as the scale, it gets a good bleaching). I can put her in the bathroom if that would be better.

I can get the antibiotics the bacteria is susceptible to, very easily. It is called Tucaprim powder(made for horses). The vet already ordered it and it should be coming in soon. I was just worried about administration since we all know that oral AB's aren't absorbed as well.

If I need to preventatively treat everyone, I sure can. I have tried to be as careful as I can, doing everything for her last, being very tedious about cleaning. It's been since 9/1, so I would figure that others would be showing signs if they had been exposed.

I just want her to get better, and quickly. She's such a nice, laid back little girl, I couldn't stand to lose her.

Well if anyone has any info on how well meds are absorbed via oral administration, please let me know. It's not like I have a choice, but still.

Also, how can you clean out their nostrils? I rinsed out her whole mouth last night with a 12ml syringe and some saline. Really blasted all of that junk out of there. Then I turned her over and attempted to get the roof of her mouth(which is nice and pink, no probs there). Her nostrils are just stopped up with snot, poor thing. I tried to flush them out but it's really stuck. Got most of it with a Qtip though.

Thanks again.

Good luck!!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

Also, how can you clean out their nostrils? I rinsed out her whole mouth last night with a 12ml syringe and some saline. Really blasted all of that junk out of there. Then I turned her over and attempted to get the roof of her mouth(which is nice and pink, no probs there). Her nostrils are just stopped up with snot, poor thing. I tried to flush them out but it's really stuck. Got most of it with a Qtip though.

Thanks again.

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Wow Becky...you must have the master touch...if I tried that with some of mine I would have to pry them off me and just try and count all the little holes I got. :D

She's just a really good snake. Since I've been messing with her mouth and giving her shots, she's just gotten even more laid back.

I just stuck a needle cap crossways in her mouth to hold it open, then flushed all the stuff out. She gave me a good long stare afterwards like WTH Lady? Why you do this to me? Least her tongue isn't stuck together anymore :) So she must feel a little better.

I would love to offer some help in your situation Becky, but really I am useless. I would, however, like to say that you definitely care for those animals, and go above and beyond for your collection. Good luck with that little girl, and I hope she gets better for you.

Aww, thanks Tim. That means alot. :sunny:

I still haven't attempted to feed her, but I don't want her to regurge and throw her further back. She hasn't lost much weight at all, maybe 5g. I cleaned out her mouth for probably a good 10 minutes. That's when you need that extra hand to hold the flailing snake.

I'm a long ways from an expert, but it seems to me that even though generally oral isn't as effective as injected, getting the snake on any form of an antibiotic that is effective against the particular bacteria in question is going to be a step in the right direction.

Here is an idea that isn't mentioned so I don't know if you've considered it. Can you give the snake the new oral med, and also stay on the Baytril injections? Since the snake hasn't been getting worse, the Baytril must be having some effect, and maybe the double whammy will do the trick?

I hope you start seeing an improvement soon!

Since the SMX-TMP(trimethoprim) is pretty hard on the kidneys, as is the Baytril, I really don't know how much a 140g Ball can take. The Baytril is only intermediate as far as sensitivity, and I'd rather save it for things I can actually use it for. That stuff is almost $80 a bottle for the injectable(100ml of the 100mg/ml)

Right now, I have tablets that are 960mg. Her dose is 10-30mg/kg. She's 140g. The vet wants to use the smallest dose possible(10mg/kg) so as to not blast her kidneys to the moon. So! I need to dilute all of this out ALOT and then give it orally via a red rubber feeding tube.

I know we have some bags of sterile water around here somewhere. I'll likely work with that and make up a couple doses to keep in the fridge. I know I'll have to use the whole pill since you really don't know how the meds are distributed in the pill.

I'll likely do it tomorrow and nebulize her as well with a bronchodilator(levalbuterol). Wish me luck!

Wow; I wish that I had something constructive to say. I hope that you can fix the little lady up and get her through this nastiness.

Wow Becky.... so sorry that your dealing with this.... I check this thread every time I log on. Please keep us posted on your little girl.... sending my best! L

Becky i just read this post for the first time and I am so sorry. keep fighting the good fight! I hope it all works out. keep us posted.

I'm sending positive vibes your way. :)

Thanks Raul!

I've been soaking her almost every night so the junk breaks up in her mouth/lungs and so she keeps her system flushed out. She gets put in a 6qt tub with some paper towels and water, and then pushed all the way to the back of the rack over the heat. Seems to make her feel better afterwards.

Anyone know where they carry a pestle and mortar? These pills are ginormous and I don't think a spoon is going to grind it up enough :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

Anyone know where they carry a pestle and mortar? These pills are ginormous and I don't think a spoon is going to grind it up enough :)

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My Wal-Mart carries them (in the kitchen area), ebay is another option I am sure. A hammer and a ziplock will work well too ;)

Oh ok! Great! I'll head on over to cult that is Wally World and see what they have. We do have a Bed, Bath and Beyond, so they might have one too(I'm sure it would cost $49.99 being them, but still).

I could do a hammer and zip lock, but someone in this house has a fetish with those damn baggies(my father must use a whole freakin box to separate out portions of salad from the big bag, no.. he's not neurotic at all) and I'd rather not waste them. I do need it ground pretty find, so hopefully the mortar and pestle will do the job.

Thanks!

A rolling pin over a ziploc (or just over 2 layers of saran wrap, wax paper, paper bag) works well to get a fine, even powder. We used to do this way back when I was a kid in 4-H and was raising baby chicks that couldn't eat the pelleted chicken food and needed something finer.

So Becky...were you able to find a mortar?

Yep! I found one for $7.99 at Linens N Things. It's marble too, so should last a good while.


I got her first dose in her and she did well. I mixed one 960mg pill with 100ml of water, and her dose was 0.15ml, HAHA. She needs a whole 1.4mg...

Just wish the stupid powder would dissolve! Oh well.

Good to hear that getting the oral dose in her went ok! Let's hope it works!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

So the 150g female Ball I have here has been being treated with Baytril and nebulized Amikacin since 9/1. She's been staying steady, not getting any better, not any worse.

My vet did a culture and we sent it off last Monday. What came back was really fun.. Ok.. not.

She has gram negative nonfermentative bacteria. Which is resistant to mostly everything. YAY... *sigh*

It's susceptible to a few things, like marbofloxacin(which costs an arm, leg and your first born child), as well as Trimethoprim Sulfamethoxazole and Ticarcillin.

Marbofloxacin is out of the question, it's over $200 for a tiny bottle, and Becky ain't got that kinda money.

I do have some 800mg + 160mg(I think) of the Trimethoprim sulfa antibiotic, but I would have to get it compounded and into a TEENSY dose. The dose for that is 30mg/kg.. Wow.. It would also have to be given orally via a RRFT.

Ticarcillin is also out of the question because it's a human drug(it IS injectable though.. Damnit).

So.. Anyone have any suggestions? Since the Trimethoprim sulfa drug is the only thing that is going to work and be effective, will it work well enough since it's going to be given orally? She's being kept pretty warm and humid so it should absorb pretty quickly.

Thanks in advance!

OH! And if I ever want to buy a snake from Zookeeper in Austin again, tell me NO! NO NO NO!

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Oh no not Zookeeper! That's the store I go to. I've always found them to be real helpful and very serious about making sure everything goes well after the sale.

Have you talked with Dave, the manager? Is it really their fault?

I know them all pretty welll and can talk to them if you like.

Ben

I also feel compelled to say that I've purshased all four of my reptiles from zookeeper and they've all been healthy.

For the most part, they do a good job. I don't like that they keep their breeding snakes together ALL THE TIME.. plus the fact that they get WC snakes in alot and take in rescues with unknown backgrounds/diseases.

I'm taking all of the paperwork with me when I go down there soon. They know me and are generally very nice. I just want to let them know that they potentially have something quite dangerous on their hands(it's transmissible to humans) and need to be careful.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

So the 150g female Ball I have here has been being treated with Baytril and nebulized Amikacin since 9/1. She's been staying steady, not getting any better, not any worse.

My vet did a culture and we sent it off last Monday. What came back was really fun.. Ok.. not.

She has gram negative nonfermentative bacteria. Which is resistant to mostly everything. YAY... *sigh*

It's susceptible to a few things, like marbofloxacin(which costs an arm, leg and your first born child), as well as Trimethoprim Sulfamethoxazole and Ticarcillin.

Marbofloxacin is out of the question, it's over $200 for a tiny bottle, and Becky ain't got that kinda money.

I do have some 800mg + 160mg(I think) of the Trimethoprim sulfa antibiotic, but I would have to get it compounded and into a TEENSY dose. The dose for that is 30mg/kg.. Wow.. It would also have to be given orally via a RRFT.

Ticarcillin is also out of the question because it's a human drug(it IS injectable though.. Damnit).

So.. Anyone have any suggestions? Since the Trimethoprim sulfa drug is the only thing that is going to work and be effective, will it work well enough since it's going to be given orally? She's being kept pretty warm and humid so it should absorb pretty quickly.

Thanks in advance!

OH! And if I ever want to buy a snake from Zookeeper in Austin again, tell me NO! NO NO NO!

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i wish i could help but i cant even pronounce most of those words :(

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

For the most part, they do a good job. I don't like that they keep their breeding snakes together ALL THE TIME.. plus the fact that they get WC snakes in alot and take in rescues with unknown backgrounds/diseases.

I'm taking all of the paperwork with me when I go down there soon. They know me and are generally very nice. I just want to let them know that they potentially have something quite dangerous on their hands(it's transmissible to humans) and need to be careful.

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Yea I know they had some sick WC babies. I remember talking with one of the guys and he was lamenting the fact that the owner got some WC balls that got sick. I'm guessing that perhaps they nursed some of them along til they looked OK, but they were actually still infected??

I highly recommend dealing with the manager (Dave) on an issue like this. Odd thing is, I haven't seen him in in a while. he's kind of overly easy-going on some husbandry issues, but he's a good guy, very knowledgeable on snakes, and would definately want to make things right.

I'm hoping I've simply missed him by chance, or that he's on vacation. it would really suck if he was gone.

if you like, PM me before you go down there and I'll call them and do whatever I can to make sure they treat you right!

Thank you, that's very thoughtful of you. And no, I haven't seen him around lately either, he's a really nice guy and I love all of the tarantulas he has(he gave me a few freebies once when I just bought a $5 Chaco Golden Knee sling). He's good people.

I'm just worried they might have something running through their store, and they aren't aware of it. They had some WC sub-adults/adults the last 2-3 times I was there, but they looked healthy and were hydrated/free of parasites.

I went in today to buy some crickets and Dave was in. I pulled him aside and described the issue in rough detail. He seemed very eager to do whatever he could and asked me what the bacteria was. He made a guess but I just couldn't remember. Anyway, I told him to keep an eye out for "Becky from Waco" and he said he would.

I hope you don't mind. I'm on a first-name basis with most of the guys in there and I think they are good people. Also, since you're a BP.net member I want to help you out if I can.

How dangerous is the situation? I'm going to be back in there tomorrow to buy more feeders and I was planning on giving Dave more details about the bacteria and anti-biotics. I'd hate for any more baby balls to get sick.

It has been 10 days since you said you got the first dose of the new antibiotic in your poor sick girl. I've been wondering how she's doing. Did I miss any updates?

She's doing better. Much less mucous in her mouth and she's breathing alot better. She's going into shed so we'll see how she is afterwards. She just looks like she feels better now and isn't sleeping with her head up. She does well with the tubings and isn't stressed/losing weight. Staying hydrated too, so that's the main thing.


I went by Zookeeper and gave them a copy of the culture report so they will know what to use in case this pops up again.

Just an update!

The little girl shed(full shed) and is looking so much better. No real bubbles in her mouth, saliva isn't as thick, and she's not holding her head up to breathe, nor is she wheezing/popping/yawning/etc. Her glottis looks a bit inflamed but that's likely from me having to hold her mouth open with a needle cap so I can tube her. She's maintaining her weight really well and staying hydrated, so hopefully we're getting out of the woods. I'm sure she'll be ready to eat soon!

This is great news Becky. I am so happy for you (and her) :)


She is lucky to have such a talented mom.

Good to know she is doing better!

That's great Becky. I am gald she is making a turn around for you. All that hard work does pay off.

Go Becky, you rock!

Glad to hear she is finally getting better! Good job.;) Could we get some pics in the near future of her?

Sure! I'll take some tonight before she gets her meds. She's getting to be the most laid back thing, really good about me having to fiddle with her mouth and head.

That is really great news! Congrats, I hope this recovery continues at a fast rate!

great news!

I imagine zookeeper was happy to get the info. Last week, they asked after you and mentioned that they hadn't seen you yet.

How dangerous and/or tough did the bacteria turn out to be?

I can post culture results if anyone wants to see... They are very interesting. The bacteria we're dealing with is one that is resistant to most antibiotics(think of MRSA but not quite that bad). Here's a link to the culture papers(thanks Jamie for hosting it):

http://www.glassreptiles.com/pictures/report2.pdf

Zookeeper got a copy of the report so they can have it for future reference and to show their vet. Hopefully they won't have to use that information.