Is the high price market dying?

I have been looking around at some snakes and it makes me wonder....

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=32&de=540280

Selling it for $30000 curious as to why anyone would pay that esp then they can get an adult female pastel for like $1000 and a male fire for like $2000.

Do you think the prices are getting ridiculously inflated to a point where they aren't being purchased anymore (which hurts the market)...Since I have been on here I have seen more people just make the morphs they want instead of buying them.

I think that particular snake is priced way out of line, but I can understand why SOME snakes might go for that.

I agree I can understand the ones that not many know the genetics behind...like some that were at Daytona this year. But i have been seeing a lot of basic combos going for oodles of money.

I think the days of high priced Balls are coming to an end. There are a lot of rare ones, but I think one of the "problems" is that there are SO many to choose from now. I think supply and demand also applies to variety as well as the supply of a particular morph. When there were only a handful of Ball morphs such as pastel, albino, ghost, and pied people could ask and receive a large sum of money for those or any new morphs that came to market. But now that there's a plethora of morphs and combos to choose from, I don't see people risking a large investment on a morph or morph combo especially a simple double codom like the fire pastel.

I don't think we are in for a sudden collapse of the current market. I do think it will continue its current trend until there will be few bps that can command more than 5-10k and nearly every morphs will be under 1k each, with most under $500

Justin

Holy crap! $30,000 is a little out of line.....

I don't think it's "out of line." What I do think is that the guy is not going to get that much money for it...or anywhere close to it. But it's HIS choice what price he wants to set. And it's our choice to maybe give a little laugh, shake our heads, and move on to the next deal.

I don't think one guy's poor choice of pricing is an indicator of the ball python market as a whole.

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Originally Posted by crystalp705

Holy crap! $30,000 is a little out of line.....

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Only if you consider 25k overpriced out of line. :)

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Originally Posted by JLC

I don't think it's "out of line." What I do think is that the guy is not going to get that much money for it...or anywhere close to it. But it's HIS choice what price he wants to set. And it's our choice to maybe give a little laugh, shake our heads, and move on to the next deal.

I don't think one guy's poor choice of pricing is an indicator of the ball python market as a whole.

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Well said Judy.

When push comes to shove that guy will probably end up selling it for considerably less money, because any of the snake breeders capable of spending that kinda cash on a snake, would know that a fire pastel for 30g is not a wise decision...

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Originally Posted by jkobylka

I don't think we are in for a sudden collapse of the current market. I do think it will continue its current trend until there will be few bps that can command more than 5-10k and nearly every morphs will be under 1k each, with most under $500

Justin

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I think that is exactly right. The only somewhat common morph that I think will really hold on for a long time before going below 1k is the pied which is why I plan on never selling a female pied.

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Originally Posted by Gooseman

Well said Judy.

When push comes to shove that guy will probably end up selling it for considerably less money, because any of the snake breeders capable of spending that kinda cash on a snake, would know that a fire pastel for 30g is not a wise decision...

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Another possibility is that he posted a ridiculously high price in order to barter for other morphs that he might be interested in...

It is interesting to see how some people price their snakes. I've seen some people post prices that were extremely high and low for different snakes in the same ad. :confused:

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Originally Posted by KS ad

I can ship this animal via UPS, DELTA, or deliver it personally if my asking price or near my asking price is met

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I would find it quite funny if a guy in Timbuktu paid "near asking price" and then demanded personal delivery... lol :omg:

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Originally Posted by Gooseman

I would find it quite funny if a guy in Timbuktu paid "near asking price" and then demanded personal delivery... lol :omg:

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Heck, I'd travel to Timbuktu for a $30K sale... maybe even Timbukthree. :P

Of course, the airlines don't make personally delivering a snake overseas even remotely plausible, but I guess you could have it shipped and meet it there...ticket would only cost you maybe 2 or 3K... lol

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Originally Posted by JLC

I don't think it's "out of line." What I do think is that the guy is not going to get that much money for it...or anywhere close to it. But it's HIS choice what price he wants to set. And it's our choice to maybe give a little laugh, shake our heads, and move on to the next deal.

I don't think one guy's poor choice of pricing is an indicator of the ball python market as a whole.

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I somewhat agree...but he isnt the only ridiculous price i have found up there lately.

Sometimes prices like that have very little to do with actually selling an animal, or at least that specific animal.

-adam

I doubt very much that any knowledgeable person would pay that much for that ball python. However, isn't it possible that he never intended to sell the animal for that price, but was more interested in getting people talking about it? (after all, they say that ANY advertising is good advertising) If that was the case, judging by the various threads I've seen popping up on different forums, I'd say 'Mission Accomplished...'

It IS a very pretty snake, and there will undoubtedly be several more hatched next season. I'm sure the pictures that were posted caused several people to change their upcoming breeding plans.

Mark

The difference between buying that snake and getting your own pastel female and fire male to breed together is TIME. If you want it NOW, then you pay the price, or you wait.
From the posts, most of us would wait, and make our own. I personally can't think why a pastel fire would be useful to me, so I wouldn't buy it. People pay a lot more for a bumblebee than for a female pastel and male spider too. To make your own, you'd have to pay for the female, get it through quarentine, get it to size to breed, then breed it to the male you got, as long as the male is big enough to breed. Then you have to wait to see if she took, wait for her to lay eggs, and wait to see if the eggs hatch, then see WHAT hatched.
That's a lot of odds to wait on, when you could just buy one. And that, my friends, is why we breed "designer combo morphs". Many people don't want to wait and have all that time and equipment and effort to get what they could easily pay extra money and have in hand immediately.
And you are right, it's his snake, and he can price it at $100K if he wants to. Shoot, he could price a normal male at $100K if he wants to. Will I buy it? No. Will you buy it? Probably not. But if he finds someone willing to spend $100K on that normal male, then kudos to him.
That said, it's very pretty. Nice bright colors.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Sometimes prices like that have very little to do with actually selling an animal, or at least that specific animal.

-adam

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Have to agree with Adam and Mark, he probably doesn't care if it sells. Instead he can use the $30k price tag to justify selling male Fires at a high price and telling people that they just need to add a female pastel and they too can be producing $30,000 snakes next year....... :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by MarkS

after all, they say that ANY advertising is good advertising

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hmmm...seems I have heard that somewhere before.

:rolleyes:

just sayin'

I know the guy selling that BP. Apparently it not only slithers, but it flys as well. :carrot: :carrot:

I wonder if you could lease a snake like that. :rolleye2:

He dropped the price.

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Originally Posted by N4S

He dropped the price.

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Yep, now when it comes down 10k more it might actually sell.

My thought is he put it out there at that price looking to get some offers... The way I look at it you put a price of 30k on it... someone says ill give you 15k... and "yea ill take it"... still a butt load of money for a snake... Like with kingsnake... I wouldnt put my snakes out there for less than everyone else but that doesnt mean i wouldnt sell them for less... You put a spider on there for 600$ ... someone whose interested says i can get one for 500... and you take the deal... This helps a little with keepin the market price up a little for the breeders... Pinstripes were 1000 start of this yr... ive found some for 600$... totally killing the market.

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Originally Posted by BigCeC43

I know the guy selling that BP. Apparently it not only slithers, but it flys as well. :carrot: :carrot:

I wonder if you could lease a snake like that. :rolleye2:

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LOL. Does it walk on water too? :rockon:

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Originally Posted by crystalp705

LOL. Does it walk on water too? :rockon:

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I heard it has lasers!!!

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Originally Posted by juddb

I heard it has lasers!!!

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Yeah well I heard that it changes color with its mood.....cool huh? :carrot:

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Originally Posted by crystalp705

Yeah well I heard that it changes color with its mood.....cool huh? :carrot:

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Not as cool as how it transforms. :sabduel:

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Originally Posted by juddb

Not as cool as how it transforms. :sabduel:

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LMAO.,.....you got me there! Transforming is much cooler.... :rockon:

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Originally Posted by crystalp705

LMAO.,.....you got me there! Transforming is much cooler.... :rockon:

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Maybe scratch-n-sniff? :rolleye2:

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I know the guy selling that BP

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If I know you, then who are you?

Someone brought it to my attention that you guys had alot to say about my fire pastel, and thats fine.

The bottom line is that these snakes are worth what the people breeding them say they are worth. I didn't see any threads bashing Will Slough for the price tag of the Banana, where are those threads???

The fire pastel that I am selling is the first and only fire pastel for sale EVER!!!

I forget who mentioned it but in this thread someone said that they wouldn't have to wait to make a fire pastel, someone could just buy mine and that is exactly right. We are americans, it is our god given right to want what we want and want it yesterday! And that is what I'm providing, instant gratification.

Yes, I dropped the price. Why? I need the money...simple as that. Do I NEED to sell this snake....no......am I going to take advantage of the oppertunity to sell it while its the only one for sale? You damn right I am.

Its my snake, buy it, make it, appreciate it, just dont be jelous :taz:

From what I have seen in prices, they are only going to go down...look at spiders and pastels, they are almost "cheap" these days..

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Originally Posted by nephrurus

The bottom line is that these snakes are worth what the people breeding them say they are worth.

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They absolutely are! They are worth whatever you're willing to part with them for. Some rather ordinary snakes are priceless to those that have them. And some folks let stunning animals go for surprisingly low prices.

I think folks found the original $40K pricetag for a simple co-dom combination somewhat amusing and expressed that here.

But I for one, will stand up beside you and defend your right to set your prices at whatever you wish, even if I don't think you'd be successful in finding a buyer at that price.

I wish you all the best and hope you get every penny you believe that animal is worth. :)

Yeah but how many spiders and pastels are out there? Thousands!!! There are 6 Pastel Fires that I know of TOTAL. I produced 12 spiders this year just by myself, and I'm a little guy. Comparing the fire pastel to spiders and pastels is nearly laughable.

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Originally Posted by sw204me

From what I have seen in prices, they are only going to go down...look at spiders and pastels, they are almost "cheap" these days..

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I'm sure that trend will only continue as long as the mentality that "a pastel is a pastel is a pastel" hangs around. The BP industry is still very set on designer morphs right now, which means the market is whatever it will bear, and the driving force is the latest, greatest, and most morphs packed into each animal. The obvious problem with this is that these animals reproduce, which lowers the dollar value with each successive generation.

I don't see it being too far off when all the bigger breeders, and a number of smaller ones get together and start publishing AKC-style books on what defines a "perfect" specimen of a particular morph. Once these standards are in place, prices will very likely stratify based on the quality of the animal according to industry standards and lineage, and you will instead see high priced simple morphs sitting alongside lower-priced "pet quality" animals like you do with dogs and cats now.

Just curious is anyone jealous of this guy bc i sure am not and it shows the type of person he is for even mentioning the word jealous... Hell would freeze over before Id drop 30k on a snake that can be made for 2,500... Pick up a fire... breed it to your pastel and whala you got a fire pastel... hopefully he can sell that fire and get some hooked on phonix... jelous? oppertunity?

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Originally Posted by nephrurus

The bottom line is that these snakes are worth what the people breeding them say they are worth. I didn't see any threads bashing Will Slough for the price tag of the Banana, where are those threads???

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There were plenty of threads about the Banana price. Maybe not on this forum but there were plenty on RDR. And the bottom line is that these snakes are worth what people buying them say they are worth. I can price my pied at 20k. Does that mean it is worth 20k? I just don't see how you can expect to get anything close to even 15k when pretty much every breeder that would buy a fire pastel probably already has multiple breeder female pastels. All they need to do is drop $1500 on a fire and they would produce multiple pastel fires. If it was a double recessive I could see the 30k price but not for double codoms. Which are easy to produce. But good luck with selling it.

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Originally Posted by pfan151

There were plenty of threads about the Banana price. Maybe not on this forum but there were plenty on RDR. And the bottom line is that these snakes are worth what people buying them say they are worth. I can price my pied at 20k. Does that mean it is worth 20k?

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It IS worth $20K if that is the lowest price you'd be willing to part with it at. The value of the animal is set by the owner/seller. If you set the price at $20K and can't find anyone to buy it...and you are unwilling to go any lower and therefore keep the snake yourself...then that snake was worth $20K to you. If you continue to drop your prices until you find a buyer at $7500...then in the end, that's what animal was worth to you.

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Originally Posted by pfan151

And the bottom line is that these snakes are worth what people buying them say they are worth.

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Woah, woah, wait... So essentially you're trying to tell us basic economic theory is applicable in the snake industry also? :twisted:

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Originally Posted by pfan151

these snakes are worth what people buying them say they are worth.

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I have certain snakes that I wouldn't sell for what people interested in them are most likely willing to pay.

I price animals with a sell/keep value ... for me, some animals have a better keep value than their current market price.

-adam

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Originally Posted by JLC

The value of the animal is set by the owner/seller.

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The PRICE is set by the seller, the VALUE is set by the buyer. The fire pastel is too easy and cheap to produce to command anywhere near a 15k and especially 30k price tag. The ingredients needed to make it are just too common.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I have certain snakes that I wouldn't sell for what people interested in them are most likely willing to pay.

-adam

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I agree with that. I would not sell my het lavenders for almost any price. But that still does not mean het lavenders are worth the ridiculous price it would take for me to sell mine.

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Originally Posted by pfan151

The PRICE is set by the seller, the VALUE is set by the buyer. The fire pastel is too easy and cheap to produce to command anywhere near a 15k and especially 30k price tag. The ingredients needed to make it are just too common.

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Meh...I think we're playing with semantics here. I'm not a scholar of economics, by any means, and therefore may be guilty of not using precise terminology to get my ideas across.

My point is...when dealing with a specific animal (or whatever other unique object you want to subsitute)...the value of that animal is wholly dependent on what the seller is willing to let it go for. If you're talking about a general group of animals...such as pastels...and any ol' pastel will do...then the buyer can determine how much they are willing to spend on such an animal and try to find a seller who feels the same. But if you're talking about a very unique animal and maybe only one or two or three are even in existence...it's value is determined by the seller. If the seller is unwilling to let the animal go for less than $XXXX no matter what...then that is its value. It doesn't matter if he ever actually gets that much money for it or not.

And as I type this, I realize our difference of opinion may not be so much semantics as it is "point of view." I'm considering the value from an individual's point of view, while you are considering the value from a "market" point of view. I agree completely that a huge price tag for a fire/pastel seems unreasonable because the "ingredients" to make one are a fraction of that price. Personally, it would be worth it to me to put in a little time raising up breeders to produce my own if I wanted one that bad. BUT....for that specific animal....it's value is whatever the seller is willing to take for it...because it's the only one out there and if someone wants it badly enough, they'll have to pay what he's willing to take.

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Originally Posted by JLC

Meh...I think we're playing with semantics here. I'm not a scholar of economics, by any means, and therefore may be guilty of not using precise terminology to get my ideas across.

My point is...when dealing with a specific animal (or whatever other unique object you want to subsitute)...the value of that animal is wholly dependent on what the seller is willing to let it go for. If you're talking about a general group of animals...such as pastels...and any ol' pastel will do...then the buyer can determine how much they are willing to spend on such an animal and try to find a seller who feels the same. But if you're talking about a very unique animal and maybe only one or two or three are even in existence...it's value is determined by the seller. If the seller is unwilling to let the animal go for less than $XXXX no matter what...then that is its value. It doesn't matter if he ever actually gets that much money for it or not.

And as I type this, I realize our difference of opinion may not be so much semantics as it is "point of view." I'm considering the value from an individual's point of view, while you are considering the value from a "market" point of view. I agree completely that a huge price tag for a fire/pastel seems unreasonable because the "ingredients" to make one are a fraction of that price. Personally, it would be worth it to me to put in a little time raising up breeders to produce my own if I wanted one that bad. BUT....for that specific animal....it's value is whatever the seller is willing to take for it...because it's the only one out there and if someone wants it badly enough, they'll have to pay what he's willing to take.

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I can agree with most of that. To me the problem with trying to get that much money for a "rare" double codom is that in a few months when this seasons eggs start hatching it won't be rare any more and all prospective buyers know that.

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Originally Posted by pfan151

I can agree with most of that. To me the problem with trying to get that much money for a "rare" double codom is that in a few months when this seasons eggs start hatching it won't be rare any more and all prospective buyers know that.

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LOL....I never disputed that point at all. I didn't say there had to be logic behind whatever price a seller chooses to set. ;) I just wanted to defend his right to make his choice...and if no one wants to pay $15K for it, he is under no obligation to let it go for any less. Everyone else will just have to wait until they are more readily available. :P

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Originally Posted by nephrurus

If I know you, then who are you?

Someone brought it to my attention that you guys had alot to say about my fire pastel, and thats fine.

The bottom line is that these snakes are worth what the people breeding them say they are worth. I didn't see any threads bashing Will Slough for the price tag of the Banana, where are those threads???

The fire pastel that I am selling is the first and only fire pastel for sale EVER!!!

I forget who mentioned it but in this thread someone said that they wouldn't have to wait to make a fire pastel, someone could just buy mine and that is exactly right. We are americans, it is our god given right to want what we want and want it yesterday! And that is what I'm providing, instant gratification.

Yes, I dropped the price. Why? I need the money...simple as that. Do I NEED to sell this snake....no......am I going to take advantage of the oppertunity to sell it while its the only one for sale? You damn right I am.

Its my snake, buy it, make it, appreciate it, just dont be jelous :taz:

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I didn't have this thread intended at you...it was just the first one on kingsnake that I saw.

Your right that you can charge whatever you want...but since I have been on here...no one buys snakes for more than 2000$ from what I have seen, except the huge breeders...but they likely have that snake so therefore they wouldn't buy it. But hey we all need money so good luck with that.

But I hope to breed my own fire pastels next year for a lot less...thats all im saying.

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Originally Posted by JLC

the value of that animal is wholly dependent on what the seller is willing to let it go for.

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Just missing a little part to that equation

Value is the equilibrium point on what a seller is willing to sell for and a buyer is willing to pay for.

Examples...Sellers sells high and buyer buys high than that product has high value (Diamonds)

Seller sells high and buyer not willing to pay such a price means low value (gasoline)

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Originally Posted by mricyfire

Just missing a little part to that equation

Value is the equilibrium point on what a seller is willing to sell for and a buyer is willing to pay for.

Examples...Sellers sells high and buyer buys high than that product has high value (Diamonds)

Seller sells high and buyer not willing to pay such a price means low value (gasoline)

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I think you missed one of my previous paragraphs. If you're talking about groups of things with many different sellers...such as diamonds or gasoline....then what you say makes sense.

But if you're talking about a one-of-a-kind (or just a specific item, even if others like it exist) then that is NOT true. There may never be an "equilibrium" between what the seller is asking and what a buyer will pay.

I have a 100% het caramel female who is just shy of breeding weight and age now. She might have a "street value" of $4000......BUT....if someone were to fall in love with THIS snake and want to buy her from me, they would have to be willing to pay me $1,000,000! Because that's what she's worth to ME. I would not be willing to let her go for a penny less. Therefore, that is HER value. Not the value of just any ol' het caramel girl...but the value of THIS one.

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Originally Posted by JLC

I think you missed one of my previous paragraphs. If you're talking about groups of things with many different sellers...such as diamonds or gasoline....then what you say makes sense.

But if you're talking about a one-of-a-kind (or just a specific item, even if others like it exist) then that is NOT true. There may never be an "equilibrium" between what the seller is asking and what a buyer will pay.

I have a 100% het caramel female who is just shy of breeding weight and age now. She might have a "street value" of $4000......BUT....if someone were to fall in love with THIS snake and want to buy her from me, they would have to be willing to pay me $1,000,000! Because that's what she's worth to ME. I would not be willing to let her go for a penny less. Therefore, that is HER value. Not the value of just any ol' het caramel girl...but the value of THIS one.

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I see whatcha mean

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Originally Posted by JLC

She might have a "street value" of $4000......BUT....if someone were to fall in love with THIS snake and want to buy her from me, they would have to be willing to pay me $1,000,000!

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The problem is that emotional value is a subjective measure for which there is no real equation to convert into a static dollar value. I can understand setting a price point in you mind that you would consider (I do the same with our collection), but economically speaking, the actual value can only range between the lowest accepted bid and the highest refused offer (or in short-hand, what the market will bear).

The reason I advocate an animal registry and documentation of morph lineage and quality is because it woud normalize industry averages, and reduce the number of excess low quality animals that ultimately devalue the nicer specimens (for example - the drop in price of spiders in correlation with the increasing number of lower quality spiders).