Is he getting enough food?

Hatched in late May, '07. We've been feeding him a fuzzy every 7-14 days. The fuzzy mice, at their widest, are about the size of his girth. Is this normal? He does not seem under weight but I've had trouble finding a table of age/normal weight (plus I don't have a scale) so I am going by looks. I want to try a hopper tomorrow. Most people seem to be feeding hoppers, or larger, to anything other than hatchlings but they seem too big for my snake. Can I try a pinky rat pup? What about a fuzzy rat pup?

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Originally Posted by jwarriner

Hatched in late May, '07. We've been feeding him a fuzzy every 7-14 days. The fuzzy mice, at their widest, are about the size of his girth. Is this normal? He does not seem under weight but I've had trouble finding a table of age/normal weight (plus I don't have a scale) so I am going by looks. I want to try a hopper tomorrow. Most people seem to be feeding hoppers, or larger, to anything other than hatchlings but they seem too big for my snake. Can I try a pinky rat pup? What about a fuzzy rat pup?

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You can certainly step up the feeding if you'd like to. You'd be surprised what they can actually take down. At 4 month of age, most babies could be eating live adult mice, so if you think its time to switch up, I'd go ahead and do so.

Yea and with babies you can feed more often than every 7-14... When I first got my 07 babies they were feeding every 5 days for the first couple months... now I'm feeding them large mice 1nce a week and theyre around 4 months like Brad said so yea you can bump em up... rat fuzzies are pretty much the same as a large mouse i believe... all depends on where you get them from but you should be good.

Thanks for the advice. I've wanted to give him larger food but my girlfriend has been apprehensive because "he's just a baby." Which, I know, is dumb, but he is her snake, I just do all the work and research ;)

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Originally Posted by jwarriner

Thanks for the advice. I've wanted to give him larger food but my girlfriend has been apprehensive because "he's just a baby." Which, I know, is dumb, but he is her snake, I just do all the work and research ;)

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She should drop her preconceptions and listen to you then...;)

She has decided to defer to me on this one, as she usually does.

I'm going to see if I can get a rat pup.

I haven't had a chance to build a CO2 chamber since finding out about them yesterday so I want to get something that will be helpless and harmless (as in eyes still shut).

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Originally Posted by jwarriner

She has decided to defer to me on this one, as she usually does.

I'm going to see if I can get a rat pup.

I haven't had a chance to build a CO2 chamber since finding out about them yesterday so I want to get something that will be helpless and harmless (as in eyes still shut).

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Rat pups are no danger to your snake. Their eyes aren't even open yet...

I hatched out some babies on May 20th. I started them on rat pinks or mouse hoppers (for those that insisted on mice).

The one female that I kept hatched out weighing 70 grams. I just weighed her yesterday and she's now at 180g. She easily eats small adult mice or large rat fuzzies. I noticed when I fed her the other day that the fuzzies are a bit small now and I'll probably start feeding her rat pups once a week from now on.

One thing to try, if your ball is a good eater, is to offer a F/T rat pup. They're just easier to come by and cheaper (my two main reasons for using F/T for my guys). I got lucky and my girl is just like her mom..she'll eat anything, anytime. These are the girls I'm going to keep breeding :-)

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Originally Posted by jwarriner

I know, is dumb, but he is her snake, I just do all the work and research ;)

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I say kudos to you. im a new keeper too, my sister got one when i did but didnt do any research before hand. i try to tell her what i have learnt but doesnt listen. thinks she knows best but doesnt.

im feeding mine a hopper every 9 or 10 days (about 12 grams), he is 4 - 4 1/2 months old seems to be doing ok but also not putting much if any weight on so i might start feeding a day earlier on a regular basis and see what happens.

i go by the prey sizes here: http://www.frozenfeeder.com/sizing.html

hope this helps.
regards, Mike...

To the above post, try feeding every 5-7 days. Every 9 or 10 days just isn't often enough, especially when feeding small hoppers. That's just not enough food and he/she isn't going to grow very well.

I have babies that are in the 70g range and they eat live, small adult mice(not fuzzies, not hoppers, not weaned mice, small adults). They take them down just fine and they are ready to eat again in 7 days. These babies hatched a little over a month ago and do well with this size meal.

Your snake is very capable of taking down the prey safely by himself, they have evolved over millions of years to be able to do this. Either a small adult mouse or a small rat pup would be fine. Just pre-scent the room for about 30 minutes prior(mouse in a cage beside the snake's enclosure so the snake knows what is going on and can prepare himself), then drop the mouse in on the opposite side of the enclosure as the snake(there's no need to move him for feeding, if you have been). Make as little movement as possible. It works well for me to make the room dark and just carry around a flashlight to see to feed everyone.

If he's been on mice, I'd stick with mice for a bit unless you can easily find same-size rat pups every week. I can get mice easier and they don't outgrow the sizes I need, so all of my Ball Pythons eat those(all 35+ of them).

Baby ball pythons can be fed every 5 days...they're growing like crazy and while this wouldn't be a life-long feeding routine, they'll grow a lot during their first year.

Does anyone breed their own mice/rats?

I breed my own rats.

How many breeding couples would it take to keep a constant supply of food for one ball python?

None. It wouldn't be cost-efficient at all to breed rats or even mice for one Ball Python. I would just find a clean pet store so you can get 1-2 feeders a week.

Mice or rats, it doesn't matter. As long as they are eating consistently every week and gaining weight. They will only need about 50-60g of food as adults every week, so either 2 mice or 1 weaned rat, and they will be fine.

Babies: 1 small to medium adult mouse or one fuzzy rat
yearlings: 2 large mice or a 2-3 week old rat
Sub adults: 2 large mice or a 3-4 week old rat
Adults: 2-3 adult mice or a 4-5 week old rat(weaned and about 60g or so)

Whatever is easier for you to get locally, and your snake will eat it, then get that.

Well I like rats. But really I'm accumulating too many different pets. Different species I mean. Dogs, cats, turtles, snakes, fish... it's like a full time job when you have so many different types of animals.

I have a good source for live prey, I just haven't ever looked at their rat selection, but I will tomorrow. I want to try a rat pup fuzzy if I can find it.

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yearlings: 2 large mice or a 2-3 week old rat

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Do you guys feed multiple prey in one feeding for yearlings and adults? I am guessing the answer is yes based on the above quote.

I like rats too(I have about 25 of them), which is why I feed bitey, stinky mice :)

One plus side is, if you get a rat pup that isn't weaned, and your snake doesn't eat it, you will have to either take it back or euthanize it and freeze it for later feeding. If you get an adult mouse though, it's not going to grow any bigger and you can keep it alive until the next week when you try to feed again.

And yes, as adults they can have multiples. Some of my females are getting prepared for breeding season, and they are getting 4-5 mice each depending on their attitude. They usually get 3 if they aren't breeding.

Have you thought about buying F/T fuzzy rats?? When I only had a couple snakes I use to just buy a couple months worth so you didnt have to make the trip back and forth to the pet store every week... Have you tried feeding F/T yet? Also do you feed in the cage or out? I feed in a separate container and I had no problem getting my 07 hatchlings to eat F/T even though they were all on live before I got them. It doesnt matter either way (in cage or separate tub) but I can vouch for getting strong feeding responses feeding in separate container from all my snakes.

can anyone tell me if this link is a good reference for prey sizes or not?
thanks...

I breed my own rats. To clarify, the word "pup" is used in general reference to all unweaned rats but it isn't really very specific when it comes to picking the right prey size. Here's a quick rundown on rat developmental stages (includes pictures).

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ght=rat+stages

As you can see there are huge growth potentials in all three stages but most especially in the pup stage. A pup of 16 days of age is a much smaller feeder animal than a pup that is say 3 weeks of age so it's important to understand prey development when it comes to rats especially.

Male rats are called "bucks", females are called "does" and the litter of babies is often called "kittens" or "kitts" by fancy rat breeders. Personally I refer to all the unweaned ratties as "teat leeches" LOL

All our 07's started on rat pinks then moved up to rat fuzzies. A couple of them are still on rat fuzzies, a couple are now on very small/young rat pups. They are fed every 5 days until they reach about 200 grams, then they go to every 7 days.

oops, forgot to add it :)

http://www.frozenfeeder.com/sizing.html

We fed him a rat fuzzy. It was huge but he downed it without a lot of effort. I did not pre-kill it because he has never eaten pre-killed but I think I will next time.

In response to the CO2 chamber, the pet store i go to breeds and prekills the f/t that they sell. The owner was telling me that using a CO2 chamber for a pinky or fuzzie isn't really that humane because their lungs are so small it takes a long time for them to die.

For them she put them in the freezer and only uses the CO2 chamber for mice/rats older than pinki /fuzzie.

Can't actually speak from experience regarding the methods, just passing on what i was told. I'm just starting to breed my own feeder rats.

I also was told that feeding rats is healthier for balls because while it takes 2-3 mice per meal (sometimes depending on size of course), the equivelent would only be one larger rat and therefor less energy expended on constricting (once instead of 2-3) and swallowing so more calories stay with the snake.

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Originally Posted by Roswell

I also was told that feeding rats is healthier for balls because while it takes 2-3 mice per meal (sometimes depending on size of course), the equivelent would only be one larger rat and therefor less energy expended on constricting (once instead of 2-3) and swallowing so more calories stay with the snake.

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Not true. Snakes' metabolisms are incredibly efficient and feeding mice is just as healthy as feeding rats. The energy expended during constriction is negligible comparing between eating one rat vs multiple mice.

And as far as pinkies lungs being too small for CO2 euthanization, that sounds like a load to me as well. I would get a Vet's opinion on that...

It certainly took him longer to kill the rat than a fuzzy mouse, that's for sure. He's killed and consumed a fuzzy mouse in under ten minutes, the process with the rat fuzzy took twice that long. I've heard conflicting information on which is more nutritious/better, rats or mice. Frankly, I don't know how much difference there could be. I'd say the difference has more to do with owners rather than the snakes.

Actually Brad it isn't a load of bull though it's only applicable from what my research told me up to about 10 days of age. Up to that point (basically while they are pinks) all rodents are resistant to hypoxia so CO2 isn't a great way to go for them. Takes them far longer to die than it would an older offspring or a full adult. Most university studies I've read - that being their lab stated rules for euthansia don't recommend rapid freezing, some do, some don't - but most of them don't recommend CO2 euthansia either. It's nothing to do with their "small lungs", probably more likely just due to them being neonatal rodents. All mammals (including human babies) respirate nasally while nursing heavily and breath functionally different than older babies/adults in how deep they breath and how often they breath in and out so I expect that's why the CO2 isn't quickly effective on pinks. On big fuzzies and upwards, it's very effective.

I've used CO2 and canned air to euthanize pinks/fuzzies. They all go down the same. I'm not one to just put a living creature in the freezer.

One of my teachers did that to a live mouse who was injured. Stuck him in one of our empty refrigerator freezers.. Came back the NEXT DAY and he was still running around and was fine..

The vet's opinion would be just that, an opinion. Unless the vet has actually used a CO2 chamber. I was told that info about pinkies from a long time breeder who uses one frequently on many different sizes. So i don't believe that its a load of bull.

As far as metabolism goes, ill give you that one. You may very well be right. However it is cheaper. One rat vs 3 mice is less money and if you're feeding more than one or two snakes the money difference adds up.

On a page talking about how to make a CO2 chamber, I saw that info about the littlest babies being resistant to suffocation so it recommended CO2 was not used for them. I think it said it was based on a study done at UCDavis (a veterinary school).

The person also mentioned that freezing was NOT a humane alternative for the more mature ones, because they can live a surprisingly long time in a typical household freezer so it is a very slow death. However, this person's opinion (I'm pretty sure this was NOT based on any university study) was that since the little ones that are resistant to the CO2 have little to no fur and are too young to effectively regulate their own body temperatures, that freezing was a good option for them.

Sorry, I don't think I could find the page again to post a link.

On this subject, I have alittle question too. I have a very healthy (now he is without the mites anyway) bp who eats every 7 days. One full sized lab mouse. But sometimes I think its not enough, he is extremely active right after he eats it, to me looks like hes waiting for me to drop in another. He just turned 1 and he is a big boy (in my eyes anyway). Should I bump him up? Does he need more? :)