babies! and questions

I checked on my feeder tank this morning and saw the big fat girl had a nice little litter of about 7 or 8. Immediately I took out the male and the other feeders so shes by herself with her baby pinks now. I have been keeping an eye on them and I want to make sure they all stay healthy.

Is there anything I can do to help the mother while she's nursing?
Is there anything I need to do to help the pinks so they can grow up healthy?


The mom was carrying one of them in her mouth earlier but it didnt look like she was eating it. To my understanding mothers eat their young if they are stressed. I want to do everything I can to make sure mum's not stressed so these babies can grow big and strong.

Just let her do her thing. With my rats sometimes the moms are pretty rough on the babies, some of them i find have little teeth marks on them from mom moving them around.

Sorry, probably should have mentioned this, but they are mice. Not sure if that makes a difference at all. Thankyou for your help too!

Make sure she's fed well, her water bottle is always full and her enclosure is cleaned regularily....basically anything you'd do for any rat really....just more so with a female nursing a litter. As the pinks become pups in about 15 or so days their eyes will open and they'll start to follow her to her food and water sources. Usually by day 20 they are eating and drinking independent of their mother but will still nurse from her until they are weaned.

Female rats move their young all the time, it's their instincts at work. With larger litters an experienced female rat will often break them into smaller groups, move from group to group nursing them and then pile them up back together on and off for face and butt washing.

ahhh the pitter patter of little feet...

I'm anxiously awaiting my first 2 litters of mice, hoping for them in the next day or two. Something you said, though, I wanted to ask about...

I thought it was a good idea to leave at least the other female in the tank with the new mother? don't they help each other out and stuff?

I'm not sure, this morning when I first checked on all of them, the other female actually had one of the babies in her mouth too. Maybe she was helping? I doubt it could hurt to have her in there too. Does anybody know for sure?

Also, I temporarily put the other mice in one of the bins of my rack. My snakes are goin crazy! They can definately smell them. Is this ok to keep them in my rack? Will my snakes get used to it or should i move them out to somewhere else?

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Originally Posted by CntrlF8

I thought it was a good idea to leave at least the other female in the tank with the new mother? don't they help each other out and stuff?

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It is just a matter of choice. Some see it as a rest time for the female and putting her alone gives her less stress and time away while she deals with the new kids.

Others (like me) leave the females together as they are social animals and I have seen them help each other out.

Neither way is wrong...just a personal choice.

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Originally Posted by amcceney

Also, I temporarily put the other mice in one of the bins of my rack. My snakes are goin crazy! They can definately smell them. Is this ok to keep them in my rack? Will my snakes get used to it or should i move them out to somewhere else?

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The snakes will be fine...many people breed rats in their snake rooms with no reported issues. Since you just moved them in there you are seeing a feeding response (due to the new smell)...but that will go away soon.

Something to keep in mind though, if the female that's supposed to be "assisting" the new mom with females is pregnant at that time, the babies will nurse off her as well, and ( I know in rats) the mother doesn't actually produce milk for a day when she begins to lactate.
It's chocked full of good antibodies to be given to the newborns, you would be taking that away from her own unborn pups, and she would also be nursing and pregnant at the same time. That to me is unfavorable conditions for the assisting female.
I don't know if the same thing is applicable to mice, but it's just something to keep in mind for the future.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Something to keep in mind though, if the female that's supposed to be "assisting" the new mom with females is pregnant at that time, the babies will nurse off her as well, and ( I know in rats) the mother doesn't actually produce milk for a day when she begins to lactate.
It's chocked full of good antibodies to be given to the newborns, you would be taking that away from her own unborn pups, and she would also be nursing and pregnant at the same time. That to me is unfavorable conditions for the assisting female.
I don't know if the same thing is applicable to mice, but it's just something to keep in mind for the future.

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I am not sure I agree with your logic. Are you saying that if a seragate female nurses then any babies she is carrying won't get any antibodies? If so I would like to see proof of this. The unborn babies are tied into the mothers blood supply so they get everything she has...and once born will nurse and get more antibodies that way as well. The antibodies aren't finite in that they will run out if she nurses other babies.

I will search for where I read that...

Here we go
http://ratguide.com/breeding/postpar...n_and_milk.php

It would be under Colostrum:

I may have worded it wrong, here's the text I tried to quote:
"The initial secretion from the mammary gland is colostrum. The colostrum is lower in volume and higher in nutrients than milk and offers the newborn rat antibodies. "

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

I will search for where I read that...

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Thank you...I am not trying to challenge you...but if true that would seriously change how rats are bred as it would mean that if the original mother doesn't nurse the babies then their immune systems are not developing correctly and therefore we are raising defect rats (at least those that are allowed to grow up and would create weaker breeders)

So I am very interested in what you find.

Perhaps I should have worded it differently, but it seems to me that colostrum is important to newborn rats.

[edit]
Lord Jackel, it's cool, I usually try to cite correctly, but in this case I was rushed.

Anyways, this is about as far as I got for researching colostrum and the development of rat pups. I do intend to read further, but I never got that far. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Perhaps I should have worded it differently, but it seems to me that colostrum is important to newborn rats.

[edit]
Lord Jackel, it's cool, I usually try to cite correctly, but in this case I was rushed.

Anyways, this is about as far as I got for researching colostrum and the development of rat pups. I do intend to read further, but I never got that far. :rolleyes:

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Thanks for finding this...and it is definately something to think on and research more. It seems the exact same as human women where the colostrum is the first thing a baby gets...but since so many women are unable to breast feed (and the kids grow up fine) is makes me wonder how truly beneficial it is. Like a nice to have vs. a need to have thing. Not sure but I too will be doing some more reseach on this subject. :)

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Originally Posted by lord jackel

Thank you...I am not trying to challenge you...but if true that would seriously change how rats are bred as it would mean that if the original mother doesn't nurse the babies then their immune systems are not developing correctly and therefore we are raising defect rats (at least those that are allowed to grow up and would create weaker breeders)

So I am very interested in what you find.

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I have no idea if it makes a real difference like you said. I think that if they gave birth around the same time period, then all pups would benefit, but if she started to lactate before her own were birthed, then her own pups are missing out on the colostrum.

Like I said, I really don't know how colostrum affects there development and growth, but it does interest me. IF it does make a difference, then I personally would keep the females seperate if they havent given birth within 5 days of eachother... does that make sense to anyone?

You would think with all the research done with rats, that this info would be a little more availabel... :rolleyes:

Colostrum delivers high concentrations of proteins, carbohydrates, nutrients, and antibodies in a low-volume form to aid in the early development of the babies. The antibodies are to protect against infections for the first few days of a baby's life, and have little to no effect on long term immune system development.

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Originally Posted by CntrlF8

Colostrum delivers high concentrations of proteins, carbohydrates, nutrients, and antibodies in a low-volume form to aid in the early development of the babies. The antibodies are to protect against infections for the first few days of a baby's life, and have little to no effect on long term immune system development.

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Now where did you get that? :)

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Now where did you get that? :)

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Wikipedia.. Though the information I found is for human and bovine colostrum, it seems 99% logical that it would be pertinent to rats and mice as well...

Oh.. yea that would make sense..

[edit]
I wish they could get a little more indepth then just "early development" , but it is wikipedia..

ahhh there's only three babies left!! she must have eaten the others. i took the hide out so i can keep an eye on them. Shes building a nest with the aspen right now and carrying the babies around as if to care for them. Why would she care for these but eat the others? I dont understand.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Oh.. yea that would make sense..

[edit]
I wish they could get a little more indepth then just "early development" , but it is wikipedia..

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Actually, if you haven't found it yet there's a detailed article about it there. Here's the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colostrum

Here's my own link on rats milk:
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/reprint/54/3/345.pdf

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Originally Posted by amcceney

ahhh there's only three babies left!! she must have eaten the others. i took the hide out so i can keep an eye on them. Shes building a nest with the aspen right now and carrying the babies around as if to care for them. Why would she care for these but eat the others? I dont understand.

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There's many different reasons. One they could have died on their own, she will eat the bodies. Or, the other female destroyed them, or she doesn't understand what they are. There's so many reason why an animal destroys her babies.

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Originally Posted by amcceney

ahhh there's only three babies left!! she must have eaten the others. i took the hide out so i can keep an eye on them. Shes building a nest with the aspen right now and carrying the babies around as if to care for them. Why would she care for these but eat the others? I dont understand.

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Are you sure they were eaten and not just hidden? Rodents, in my experience, are very good at hiding their offspring.

Also, the eating of young behavior is very, very touchy. Rabbits also exhibit this particular behavior, and it's generally in response to stress and predatory "threat." When I was raising rabbits many, many years ago my females would eat all of their kits if a dog came within sight of their hutches. it was really stressful and disturbing to me at the time because I was only 13-14.

Animals can only absorb colostrum within 12-24 hours, after that, they don't absorb anymore antibodies, so giving colostrum(if hand-rearing an animal) after that time period, is useless.

Sounds like you may be messing with her too much. Leave her alone as much as possible and put her in a dark place. I leave my mice alone for a week at a time, then clean their tubs and do everything I need to on that one day. Keeps everyone happy, me included :)

I just wanted to put in my 2 cents about the whole colostrum issue here. I would have to look it up for rats/mice specifically but I believe that basic immune systems/antibodies work much the same way for rodents as for humans. In humans, they produce colostrum just before it switches over to milk. Colostrum does have some extra nutrients as well as contain some antibodies, but the antibodies passed from mom to baby depend upon what antibodies mom has. Mom cannot pass on antibodies that she does not have. Also these antibodies are short lived, they are not permanent. Permanent antibodies are created by a persons immune system by either fighting off an illness, or through a shot (which in effect is the body fighting off foreign invaders thus creating the antibodies in their immune systems by activating the T-cells and B-cells and going through the whole antibody creating cycle, which i will not get into here as it can be really long). Antibodies passed from mom to baby do not activate the babies immune system, therefore the babies immune system does not have the knowledge to create these same antibodies on their own. The antibodies passed would just help the baby, should the baby come into contact with an illness that the baby had antibodies passed for. Like I said, the momma can only pass on antibodies that she herself has, so if the baby comes into contact with an illness that the momma does not have antibodies for, the antibodies passed from momma to baby would not be helpful. And again, these antibodies are short lived (the ones possibly passed from mom), once the antibodies cycle out of the body, they no longer will help the baby. These antibodies are only there to give the baby a slight edge in the first few weeks of life, when they are a bit weaker.
So really, from what I have learned in school, even if a baby did not feed off of their own mom, they would still grow and develop properly and would not be "defect" just because they did not feed off their own mom. But at the same time, again I have only really studied humans and antibodies in general and do not know the specifics for rodents. But just thought I would throw something else in here for people to think about.
In case anyone is wondering, I have studied 1 year of human anatomy and physiology, along with a couple of years of biology, and a year of microbiology in college (I have taken alot of biology type classes because I couldn;t decide what I wanted to do for a long time before I decided to work towards becoming an RN.)

Thanks Pam for the great overview.


So as I think about this I had a thought and wanted to run it by everyone.

It would seem to me that the colostrum antibody benefit would be less useful in our closed breeding colonies then for say a wild rat (who would come into contact with more potential diseases). I haven't had a disease issue in a couple of years (outside one rat with an RI last year) - so the extra protection might not be as useful.

Thoughts?

I bring this up in relation to the original discussion point about seperating pregnant females so that the colostrum only goes to her unborn babies once born. Since I don't seperate females (allowing them to help each other) I am trying to determine if this needs to change and that I would see a marked benefit in the colony from doing so...I understand we cannot find conclusive proof one way or another so I am curious about my logic and your thoughts on it.

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Originally Posted by lord jackel

Thanks Pam for the great overview.


So as I think about this I had a thought and wanted to run it by everyone.

It would seem to me that the colostrum antibody benefit would be less useful in our closed breeding colonies then for say a wild rat (who would come into contact with more potential diseases). I haven't had a disease issue in a couple of years (outside one rat with an RI last year) - so the extra protection might not be as useful.

Thoughts?

I bring this up in relation to the original discussion point about seperating pregnant females so that the colostrum only goes to her unborn babies once born. Since I don't seperate females (allowing them to help each other) I am trying to determine if this needs to change and that I would see a marked benefit in the colony from doing so...I understand we cannot find conclusive proof one way or another so I am curious about my logic and your thoughts on it.

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Well said. With all the evidence that's been brought up (I've been reading behind the scenes too ) I think Lord Jackel is pretty correct that in a closed breeding colony, the babies do not have a specific need for the antibodies given from the mother in the first place.

Now another question, are there any side effects from nursing a pregnant female? I would think this would just put more stress on her body with the pregnancy and all.

Also, Colostrum production vs. milk production, at least in humans, is dictated by hormones and time in relation to the birthing event, not a specific quantity. It happens for a few months before, and a few days/weeks after. Wouldn't it stand to reason, then, that even if other babies nursed from the pregnant female she would still be producing colostrum for her own litter later on?

No, because even if they were, the offspring cannot absorb it anyway. There is that small time window you have to get colostrum in them, and if they don't get it, they go without.

The link I put up earlier states that colostrum in rats is only produced for 5 days from the beginning of lactation. Also , lactation is brought on by a hormone released from the stimulation of suckling the tit.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

The link I put up earlier states that colostrum in rats is only produced for 5 days from the beginning of lactation. Also , lactation is brought on by a hormone released from the stimulation of suckling the tit.

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Well see, if I'd read everything posted I would've known that..

I'm not a big supporter of allowing back to back captive breeding of rats over the long haul but I don't see that a pregnant cage mate taking on a few nursing rotations is likely in the end to do long term harm to her, the nursing rats or her unborn litter.

The natural mother would be likely doing the majority of the nursing as her supply of milk is more geared to her litter (this is common in all nursing mammals, we make the right amount of milk in the right quantities driven by the frequency and duration of the nursing activity). I think as long as both females are kept properly with access to loads of food and water, they'll do fine. Rats are by their very nature, are prolific breeders so I would think that nature likely built in an allowance for nursing and pregnancy occurring at the same time. In our captive populations we've found that they do better when we don't burn them out as quickly as a wild rat female might be, but I don't think the occasional event is going to do any great amount of harm.