live or frozen mice?

Do you guys feed live or frozen mice? I know the animal stores say you should use frozen mice and thats what I have been doing for the past couple weeks (since i just got my baby python). But I would love to see my snake dominate a live mouse at least a couple times through out his life. So im just wondering...

as of right now i feed live but i may change to frozen/thawed when they are onto bigger prey that can really potentially do some harm to my beloved ball pythons. its really up to you on how you feed your animal, just make sure which ever way you do decide to do it, do it as safely as possible for your animal.

I Feed All Of My Bp's Frozen Rats. They All Seem To Be Taking Them Rather Well, I Had To Switch One Of My Norms And A Pastel To Frozen From Live And They Didnt Miss A Beat. It Really Takes The Worry Out Of The Feeding For Me B/c A Dead Rat Cant Bite Or Scratch My Babies, And It May Also Be Slightly Healthier??

I've always fed live, I've never fed pre-killed or f/t. I have 17 ball pythons. None get larger than a 4-6 week old rat (the equivalent of 2 adult mice). I've never had a bite or scratch on any of my snakes in over 2000 live prey being fed off.

I do not encourage switching to live just for the thrill of watching your snake dominate a prey item. It's up to each individual keeper to decide what's most convenient for them.

I feed live because i breed rats and its hard for a small rat to bite. Dont get me wrong they can and will if they have a chance but mice are able to bite pretty easily where as rats have a hard time and are usually trying very hard to breathe and not worried about biting. I hope this makes sense.

why do the people at the pet store recommend frozen mice then??? I would defiantly rather do live.

Because they want to sell their product most likely. I guess f/t can be more convenient if you have 1-2 snakes, but if you have 40 snakes, some of who each 3-4 mice at a time, that would take flippin forever. It takes me only an hour to feed all of mine with live.

If live is more convenient for you, and you know the proper way to feed live, then go for it. Your snake would probably appreciate the mental stimulation :)

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I know the animal stores say you should use frozen mice

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There is no "You should feed F/T" what you should feed is what work for your BP and what is convenient for you.

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dominate a live mouse at least a couple times through out his life

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should not be the reason behind switching if you switch it should be because it is more convenient for you to feed live and not for the thrill.

Keep in mind if you switch your BP back to live you might have a hard time switching back to F/T so make sure it is really what you want to do.

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Why do the people at the pet store recommend frozen mice then???

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Could be one of those people that oppose to live feeding.

i'd have to say the only thing with feeding live is DO IT RESPONSIBLY, don't leave prey unattended with your snake,ever, ever ever ever

My preference is to have all of my snakes eating f/t rats and mice. Even though I am raising my own, I will kill and freeze them at the proper sizes, and give them to the snakes thawed (just as soon as they will all accept them that way). I feel it's more humane for the rodents, that the previously frozen rodents may be easier to digest, and that if the snakes are ever sold it will be much easier for their new owner as well.
Virtually any snake will take a live prey item, but many have to be taught to accept f/t. If they're already used to it, then there are far fewer problems in the long term.
You can stock a year's worth of rodents in a freezer--it's not always that easy to find live ones of appropriate size. And a VERY little amount of math shows that unless you are raising your own rodents, buying live ones is just horrible on the pocketbook.

Freezing for at least 6 months will kill most parasites--another potential problem from feeding live prey.

Snakes aren't going to get parasites from their prey. Species specific. These myths have been spread around for quite some time.

These animals have lived for millions of years, much longer than we have, and they have evolved to be very efficient at killing and digesting their prey. How can you say that f/t is easier to digest? Is it a proven fact and have studies been done on this?

If frozen is more convenient for you, and your snakes will eat it, go for it. If live is more convenient for you, and your snakes eat it, then great. Neither is better or worse than the other, and if you get your feeders from a reputable source, be it live or f/t, you won't have problems. Ill-treated, poorly, emaciated frozen feeders are just as bad as ill-treated, poorly, emaciated live feeders. They affect the snake the same way.

I spend 45 cents each on medium live mice. The place I buy them from, their live prices are exactly the same as their frozen. If I bought frozen, I would be spending ALOT more getting them shipped than if I just spend $20 and drove to get them. (plus the dry ice to keep the frozen ones cold for the 2+ hour trip in Texas summer weather- $10).

Also, I want my snakes to feed as natural as possible for them. I'm not just going to lay a dead rodent in the bottom of the cage, so the snake can go up to it and open its mouth to eat. That is not what they do in the wild. With live, they are at least getting mental stimulation and physical exercise, which is good for their overall well-being. Mine don't get bit(unless it's Arith and she grabs the mouse by the tail and tries to drown it in the waterbowl... She's a doofus). Mice and small rats are really physically unable to do damage to a snake, their teeth and claws just aren't able to penetrate the hard keratinized skin. I worry more about frozen rodents, their claws are alot sharper(IME) and could possibly injure the throats or mouths of the snakes.

Just so I don't seem like a hypocrite, my boa eats f/t as well as live, 4-6 week old rabbits), the Sumatran Short Tail eats frozen small-medium rats, and the hognose eats live or frozen fuzzy/small hopper mice.

ALSO! Unless frozen feeders are vacuum sealed, they are not good past 6 months. So freezing them for that long for fear your snakes will contract some sort of dangerous parasite, will just get you freezer-burnt, nasty smelling feeders that will probably have to be thrown away. I know I don't want to eat odd-smelling, freezer-burnt chicken.

My snake will not eat frozen (at least the four times I initially tried it). He is eating live fuzzies, which I don't worry about hurting him due to their helplessness. But I want to switch him to hoppers soon and they seem much more capable of doing harm.

Any tips on humane ways to kill a rodent immediately before feeding? I've heard you can use a ruler to snap the neck, which sounds ok if you're precise, and also smacking the paper bag against the table which would be terrible if it took more than one try. Any other thoughts? I don't want to have the store perform the kill because it is far away and I don't want to give him something too cold.

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Originally Posted by jwarriner

My snake will not eat frozen (at least the four times I initially tried it). He is eating live fuzzies, which I don't worry about hurting him due to their helplessness. But I want to switch him to hoppers soon and they seem much more capable of doing harm.

Any tips on humane ways to kill a rodent immediately before feeding? I've heard you can use a ruler to snap the neck, which sounds ok if you're precise, and also smacking the paper bag against the table which would be terrible if it took more than one try. Any other thoughts? I don't want to have the store perform the kill because it is far away and I don't want to give him something too cold.

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CO2 Chamber which will cost you about 50$ to make, counting how many years you will use it for it is not that expensive http://www.thereddragonsden.com/co2.htm

That's a fantastic idea.

i prefer my mice alive when i eat them

i feed live... i hate to watch the kill. i drop the mouse in, monitor everything, when the snake strikes (which is usually successful) etc i then cover the tub, i do enjoy watching them swallow the prey though.

one of my snake had been bitten before. it was a very small nick, i probably would've never caught it...it was just right place, right time. put some neosporin on it, although it most likely would've healed just fine without it.

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Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

Snakes aren't going to get parasites from their prey. Species specific. These myths have been spread around for quite some time.

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By people like Roger Klingenberg ("Understanding Reptile Parasites")
Do a websearch on "indirect lifecycle parasites". Read up.
Parasites can be very complex creatures with very intricate lifecycles. Why DO you think people get malaria from mosquitos? It surprises me that people actually believe that parasites can't be spread from one species to another, when minimal reading will show that many parasites rely on multiple species to complete their lifecycle, and cannot complete it without all of them. Of course, rodents do carry parasites which can use reptiles as hosts. A rodent is a very good intermediate host for a reptile parasite, as it is likely to be eaten by the parasite's primary host.
Here's a quick reference for those who don't have time to do the searches:
http://www.nhc.ed.ac.uk/index.php?page=24.25.333.374
As you can see from the phrase "Rodents usually serve as intermediate hosts for snake pentastomes", live rodent prey actually does represent a risk of transmission of reptile parasites to your snakes. The pentastomes are, of course, far from the only ones.

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These animals have lived for millions of years, much longer than we have, and they have evolved to be very efficient at killing and digesting their prey. How can you say that f/t is easier to digest? Is it a proven fact and have studies been done on this?

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Actually, I said that they may be easier to digest. The reason is merely logical--freezing breaks cell walls.

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If frozen is more convenient for you, and your snakes will eat it, go for it. If live is more convenient for you, and your snakes eat it, then great. Neither is better or worse than the other, and if you get your feeders from a reputable source, be it live or f/t, you won't have problems. Ill-treated, poorly, emaciated frozen feeders are just as bad as ill-treated, poorly, emaciated live feeders. They affect the snake the same way.

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With somewhat less of a risk of parasite transmission after they have been frozen for 6 weeks. I have to say that I disagree with the idea that neither is better for the snake. All else being equal, f/t is without any doubt safer for the snake.

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I spend 45 cents each on medium live mice. The place I buy them from, their live prices are exactly the same as their frozen. If I bought frozen, I would be spending ALOT more getting them shipped than if I just spend $20 and drove to get them. (plus the dry ice to keep the frozen ones cold for the 2+ hour trip in Texas summer weather- $10).

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You're quite lucky, as live mice here cost $2.29 each. I imagine few people are fortunate enough to live close enough to a breeder to pick up live mice regularly at that price. I don't think I would be willing to drive for 2 hours to pick up live mice every week. I would prefer to have a year's worth of them shipped to me frozen for considerably less money. Unless you are housing the mice for extended periods before you feed them off, in which case you might as well just raise your own--same issues. As I said, I'm raising my own, but intend to convert all of my snakes to eating f/t, because there are simply far fewer problems (in all respects) that way. You always have plenty of the right-sized prey on hand when you need it.

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Also, I want my snakes to feed as natural as possible for them. I'm not just going to lay a dead rodent in the bottom of the cage, so the snake can go up to it and open its mouth to eat. That is not what they do in the wild. With live, they are at least getting mental stimulation and physical exercise, which is good for their overall well-being. Mine don't get bit(unless it's Arith and she grabs the mouse by the tail and tries to drown it in the waterbowl... She's a doofus). Mice and small rats are really physically unable to do damage to a snake, their teeth and claws just aren't able to penetrate the hard keratinized skin. I worry more about frozen rodents, their claws are alot sharper(IME) and could possibly injure the throats or mouths of the snakes.

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Don't make me break out the pictures of snakes that have been injured or killed by rodents. Of course there isn't anything natural about the environment snakes are in while they are captive--the lack of space to move freely is one of the primary issues that can lead to snakes being injured by live rodent prey. I have never heard of a snake being injured by the teeth or claws of an f/t rodent (apart from force-feeding stories), but I have heard MANY stories of snakes being injured by live rodents, and have seen snakes bitten in person. Usually these are minor bites--but even a small wound can provide an entry for infection, and if it's avoidable, why take the risk? I have also yet to encounter a snake that does not strike and constrict f/t prey just as vigorously as live prey. I've heard of it, but haven't seen it yet. As for the wild....wild snakes have been observed and documented eating carrion when they find it.

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ALSO! Unless frozen feeders are vacuum sealed, they are not good past 6 months. So freezing them for that long for fear your snakes will contract some sort of dangerous parasite, will just get you freezer-burnt, nasty smelling feeders that will probably have to be thrown away. I know I don't want to eat odd-smelling, freezer-burnt chicken.

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My bad--I misremembered. It is 3 to 6 WEEKS to kill most parasites, not months. Of course you can keep vacuum packed mice for a year, and mice in ordinary heavy bags for up to 6 months.
Of course, some snakes simply refuse to eat f/t, though the majority can eventually be convinced to do so with a lot of perseverence and time. I have nothing against feeding live rodents when a snake will not accept anything else. My point is just that it's a riskier choice when there IS a choice.
And whether you feed live or f/t you should have a fecal check done on your snakes once a year--because a few parasites can survive freezing. While that risk can be reduced, it can't be eliminated completely, so testing is important.

wow that must have took a lot of time responding to all those people ha ha

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Don't make me break out the pictures of snakes that have been injured or killed by rodents.

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With all due respect, most of the pictures of snakes injured or killed by rodents (especially the one of the ball python that is literally in pieces) are due to a keeper putting a live prey in with their snake overnight and even days on end without providing food or water for the rodent. The snake then becomes the prey.

If one feeds appropriately sized mice or rats (again, even my 3000+ gram female only gets one 4-6 week old rat a week), the risk of injury is minimal at best and horror stories of injuries are generally anecdotal. As I stated above, I've fed over 2000 live prey with nary a scratch on any of my snakes. Adam has reported feeding live for 10+ years to a collection of over 300 (probably over 500 now) with no injuries to his animals.

You may find this thread an interesting read: http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=24079

With that said, we advocate that each keeper decide which method works best for them.

You're welcome to advocate that, but I'll continue to disagree that feeding live is safe. My big female was just bitten by a rat, to prove it's not. She refused f/t, so I had to offer what she was used to, to get her feeding (I just acquired her last week).

Now I'm treating a wound because of it. I dislike having to feed live, because the snake inevitably eventually grabs the rodent the wrong way, and gets bitten. I don't want my snakes to be bitten if there is any possible way to avoid it. I could feed them tiny rat pups all the time, but I don't think that's an ideal food item for a large snake. Adult rats have fully developed skeletons, which pups do not. A fully developed skeleton means more calcium for the snake.

The next time they get fed, they'll receive stunned rats--and after that, pre-killed...then on to f/t if all goes well.

I'm sure everyone has their own beliefs about this issue, and I'm not going to tell people they're bad for feeding live, but I AM going to explain why I believe what I do about the issue, and let them make up their own mind.

Well I feed all of mine live mice every 6 days.. (breeding rats now) Two mice each three for my big girl and a small mice for my new baby(Once again thanks to Jamie!!!) When i feed i get out some feeding tubs put one snake one mouse and repete till done..: :P I use it as a learning time for my kids and my friends.. I usually have 6 or 7 people standing in the half dark room watching and awwwwing.. It does not bother my snakes in the bit.. Circle of life and foodchain lessons in one.. :D

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Don't make me break out the pictures of snakes that have been injured or killed by rodents.

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Most of us have seen them and it is important to understand the history behind those pics as Robin mentioned it.

Those pics are mainly used by people who opposed live feeding.

To me there is no live Vs F/T debate people must be informed and knowledgeable (they are risk feeding F/T also ;) ).

People should feed what works and what is convenient for them.

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I have nothing against feeding live rodents when a snake will not accept anything else.

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Also equal as I am against live feeding unless you don't have a choice :rolleyes:

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I could feed them tiny rat pups all the time, but I don't think that's an ideal food item for a large snake.

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One of the problem is that many of the people who complain that feeding live is dangerous are also the one feeding large preys even though a BP does not need one.


A large adult does not need anything larger than a small rat 45/65 grams, this allow your BP to feed with consistency and also reduces the risks of severe injury.

Small adult rats (as opposed to pups) can also bite very hard. I am curious to know what the risks of feeding f/t are. I am not actually aware of any.
I don't personally have the rodent colony for feeding several adult ball pythons nothing but mice. Seems like that would take a lot of space, and a lot of mice.
When the option of f/t rats is available, why bother feeding a dozen live mice instead?
I could understand if it were more convenient, and had some benefit to it...but I'm not really seeing either.

I guess after feeding my 5 kids a cup of food for dozen mice don't seem like much... I feel for myself that the most natural order of things is the best.. If i didn't keep my snakes in a cage they would be out hunting live prey in the wild.. O btw also feed my toad live bugs.. ;) But i do prekill and cook my kids meat..

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I am curious to know what the risks of feeding f/t are.

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Some people have fed prey that were not thawed all the way which lead to the death of their animal (Rare but it can happen)

Some BP have also sustained internal injuries (scratches) from nails and/or teeth (Rare but it can happen also)

Just to show that F/T is not 100% safe either like you tend to believe ;) .

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When the option of f/t rats is available, why bother feeding a dozen live mice instead?
I could understand if it were more convenient, and had some benefit to it...but I'm not really seeing either.

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Because it is not convenient for YOU does not mean it is not for other people.

Also while F/T is convinient for YOU it is not for some, (it use to be for me but now with 22 snakes it is a hassle)

Someone feeding partially frozen prey item doesn't indicate a problem with f/t,....the 't' is rather important there. That's owner error, not a problem with the food item.

As for internal scratches, do you have any documentation of this occurring more often with f/t than with live prey? I have personally never heard of this happening at all, except in force-feeding situations (which are entirely different). I am always learning all I can about these animals and their husbandry, so I would like to read up on this further.

So far, I'm still seeing the safety on the side of f/t.

Live: When done properly, possibility of bites, increased risk of parasite transmission.
Pre-Killed: When done properly, Increased risk of parasite transmission.
F/T: When done properly...?

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

You're welcome to advocate that, but I'll continue to disagree that feeding live is safe. My big female was just bitten by a rat, to prove it's not.

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What size rat did you offer her? Small rats' teeth are generally too soft to inflict a wound, and a small is really the largest even adult need. I know Adam feeds this girl a 40-50 gram rat once a month. http://www.8ballpythons.com/lesser.htm

She's the second one from the left in the top row.

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but I AM going to explain why I believe what I do about the issue, and let them make up their own mind.

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As will I. :)

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

That's owner error, not a problem with the food item.

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Same thing with those pictures of chewed up snakes ... it's an owner error, not a problem with the food item. Live feeding can be done safely, I do it every week for a very large colony of ball pythons.

There is nothing inherently wrong with feeding live prey. Same as there is nothing wrong with feeding frozen thawed. Each keeper should choose a method of feeding that their snake will thrive on and works well for them. My choice is live ... it's served me and my animals well for over a decade now.

-adam

Small rats' teeth are too soft to inflict a wound...clearly you have never been bitten by one. I have, and it inflicted a very nice wound. lol
Now, rat pups can't bite, but once they reach adulthood, their jaw pressure is up to inflicting a nasty bite, even if they're small.
The size of the prey item people choose to offer is another one of those things that has multiple answers. I prefer to go with medium rats for the large snakes, because they have fully developed skeletons, and it's more economical to feed one medium rat rather than 2 small ones. Plus, if they are frozen, they can't bite. Feeding 2 small live rats just means 2 chances for the snake to receive a bite, instead of one. Baby mice and rats are lower in calcium. (This concerns me enough that I actually dip young rodents in a bit of calcium supplement after I get my snakes eating them regularly).

I'm still not seeing the ADVANTAGE to feeding live--for the snake. The disadvantages still stand. No matter how you want to argue for using smaller rodents with a weaker bite, bites are still possible, and that doesn't address the parasite risk issue.

I'm still not seeing any disadvantages in f/t--for the snake.

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Small rats' teeth are too soft to inflict a wound...clearly you have never been bitten by one.

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I'm bitten by my 4-6 week old rats ALL the time, and yet, not a one has broken the skin yet, my skin - that's not protected by scales.

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I prefer to go with medium rats for the large snakes, because they have fully developed skeletons, and it's more economical to feed one medium rat rather than 2 small ones.

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I don't see a need to feed 2 small ones - one small one a week is more than enough food each week - it's certainly more than their wild cousins get each year (52 small rats a year).

Again, it's perfectly fine that you choose to feed frozen, and in your OPINION it's safter than live - I, and many others here just happen to disagree with you on the level of danger you want to present for feeding live. I would even hazard to say that the majority of the people here who feed live don't feed larger than small/small rats, because it's just not necessary to feed any larger.

If the danger is as inherent as you want us to believe, then why have I fed off over 2000 live prey items with NO injuries, no bites, no scratches on a single one of my animals? Even if I had ONE bite or scratch in all that time. that would be a .0005% incidence. Not even a 1/2 of a percentage of bites. From my personal experience with my own collection, the risk is minimal at best.

Adam, how many live prey items have you fed off in the last 10 years would you say? And how many injuries as a result? I believe the last time you reported on it, it was none.

Where is the inherent risk? I'm just not seeing it. :confuzd:

I'm not telling people to go out and feed live - but at the same token, I won't sit back and let the f/t feeders try to convince people that feeding live is inherently dangerous when it's not been my experience and the experience of countless other live feeders.

I tend to side with the F/T crowd.

Story time ... my friend had a nice corn snake that recieved a bite from a mouse. He cleaned the wound and it healed over and all seemed well. However, the mouse's bite had actually bit right through the the flesh and punctured the snake's lung, which lead to IR and death eventually.

Like everyone else has said though, it is what works best for you. Just remember to be responsible whether you choose to feed F/T or live and you should not have problems either way.

PS - With my collection growing at what seems like a weekly rate, i will most likely switch over to live mice in the future as well. As Adam mentioned above, feeding a large collection of reptiles F/T is very time consuming, and simply not possible at a certain point.

Robin

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Originally Posted by Dr_Gonz0

I tend to side with the F/T crowd.

Story time ... my friend had a nice corn snake that recieved a bite from a mouse. He cleaned the wound and it healed over and all seemed well. However, the mouse's bite had actually bit right through the the flesh and punctured the snake's lung, which lead to IR and death eventually.

Like everyone else has said though, it is what works best for you. Just remember to be responsible whether you choose to feed F/T or live and you should not have problems either way.

PS - With my collection growing at what seems like a weekly rate, i will most likely switch over to live mice in the future as well. As Adam mentioned above, feeding a large collection of reptiles F/T is very time consuming, and simply not possible at a certain point.

Robin

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In that case why not make the switch from mice to rats as well. Personally ( i dont want to start another huge argument or anything) i think rats are a lot safer than mice, because a small rat is less likely to bite your snake than a mouse. Not only this but breeding mice is harder and stinkier than rats.... I breed rats and feed live, and my bp's couldnt be any happier.

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Originally Posted by juddb

In that case why not make the switch from mice to rats as well. Personally ( i dont want to start another huge argument or anything) i think rats are a lot safer than mice, because a small rat is less likely to bite your snake than a mouse. Not only this but breeding mice is harder and stinkier than rats.... I breed rats and feed live, and my bp's couldnt be any happier.

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I have no choice in the matter, they are not available here. I live in the province of Alberta, located in western Canada and rats are outlawed here ... seriously, we have a rat patrol that checks farms along the Alberta borders. You can get a license to breed rats here, but they can not be sold live.

Robin

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Originally Posted by Dr_Gonz0

I have no choice in the matter, they are not available here. I live in the province of Alberta, located in western Canada and rats are outlawed here ... seriously, we have a rat patrol that checks farms along the Alberta borders. You can get a license to breed rats here, but they can not be sold live.

Robin

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Thats horrible. :mad: Sorry man :oops:

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Originally Posted by juddb

Thats horrible. :mad: Sorry man :oops:

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Yea, and seeing as I rent a townhouse, I think my landlord would be less than impressed to find me breeding rats in my basement. Heck, i am sure they would freak if they found out i was breeding reptiles to begin with ... lol.

Robin

For me it comes down to mostly the knowledge and skill of the snake's owner. You can do harm to your snake feeding any method incorrectly. There's no way to definitively say "this method is better than this method" when there are so many variables coming into play.

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

For me it comes down to mostly the knowledge and skill of the snake's owner. You can do harm to your snake feeding any method incorrectly. There's no way to definitively say "this method is better than this method" when there are so many variables coming into play.

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Exactly, it comes down to being responsible when feeding, whether you are using F/T or live prey. If using F/T, make sure it is prepared properly, and if going the live route, observe the feeding to make sure there is no injuries to your snake(s). :)

Robin

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

The size of the prey item people choose to offer is another one of those things that has multiple answers. I prefer to go with medium rats for the large snakes, because they have fully developed skeletons

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A medium rat has a more fully developed skeleton than a small rat? I don't think so.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

and it's more economical to feed one medium rat rather than 2 small ones.

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More economical for whom? Not me. Besides, a medium rat is way too much food to feed to an adult ball python weekly.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Plus, if they are frozen, they can't bite. Feeding 2 small live rats just means 2 chances for the snake to receive a bite, instead of one.

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I've never had a snake bitten by a rodent and I feed a fairly large collection every week ... it just doesn't work the same way you seem to advocate. I open the tub, the snake comes out, rodent is placed on tongs and put in front of the snake, rodent is dead ... no bites, scratches, maulings, etc ... it's really pretty simple.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Baby mice and rats are lower in calcium. (This concerns me enough that I actually dip young rodents in a bit of calcium supplement after I get my snakes eating them regularly).

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This is totally unnecessary. Appropriately sized rodents have everything a snake needs to survive. I've been raising snakes for a very long time now and calcium supplements are not needed for ball pythons. Unless you have some literature describing exactly how much calcium a ball python needs per feeding that I don't know about?

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

I'm still not seeing the ADVANTAGE to feeding live--for the snake.

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Some snakes will not eat F/T period ... there's advantage number one.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

The disadvantages still stand.

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Those are your "disadvantages", not mine ... I know that live feeding can be done safely and I do it week in and week out with a very large group of ball pythons. If you'd ever like to come to Maryland and spend the day and a half it takes to feed my collection learning how to feed live safely, you're more than welcome.

-adam

I personally have most of mine on f/t. I do it because it's easier for me. Buying live animals is expensive compared to buying f/t in bulk. And I have no desire to raise my own rats/mice - between life and my snakes I already have my hands full taking care of what I have now; a rodent colony is too much trouble.

That being said, if you feed live responsibly there is really no danger to your snake. It's people who are stupid about it that give it a bad wrap.

Breeding animals need more food than pets, and a large female going into the breeding season is better off with more food than a small rat once a week. In my opinion.

Anyhow, I think I've presented my side--which was my intention, not to start an argument over it.
(Observing a live feeding is pretty much all you can do...you can't prevent a bite from happening when the snake grabs a rodent wrong. There isn't anything you can do about it except treat the wound afterward. A nip from a young rat is different from a full-force 'omg I'm dying' bite. I have witnessed injuries from bites inflicted by small rats. (Again, small adults--not pups). I'll not argue on the calcium issue, because no studies have been done on it, and I prefer to error on the side of caution. It's my opinion that lower calcium levels can contribute to egg binding, so ensuring that young reptiles have a bit of extra calcium while growing up,and that breeding females get adequate amounts of it, will help prevent that from happening. I think the heavier skeleton of a fully adult rat is an adequate source of calcium, but the immature skeleton of a pup isn't quite enough, so I choose to supplement. Adult mice are fine too, but it takes a lot of them to feed a 3000 gram breeding female ball python. I imagine if you're breeding a rack of mice, it's no big deal, but I've only got 2 rat bins, and one mouse, and no space for much more than that. F/T might be a hassle with a large collection, but I can think of ways to make it less of one. I'll be there eventually myself anyhow, and be happy to let you know how I handle it. ;)

A nonbreeding ball python probably only needs one large prey item every 2 weeks. I'm not sure that feeding a smaller one every week is preferable for the snake's health, either. I know some people have questioned whether giving a snake's digestive system a rest in between meals might be better for it. There are still many things we don't know, and a LOT left to learn. If nothing else, this thread has demonstrated how many different feeding methods can work and result in healthy snakes.

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Breeding animals need more food than pets, and a large female going into the breeding season is better off with more food than a small rat once a week. In my opinion.

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Adam's breeders do fine on one small rat a week. He has just a "little bit" of hands on practical experience in the matter. :cool:

This is fine for him, and what you choose to do is fine for you, etc. I'm sure there are as many opinions on this issue as...well, you know.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

I'm sure there are as many opinions on this issue as...well, you know.

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That there is. Maybe we can "put this one to bed" now? :P Everyone's opinions have been clearly stated and rebutted and re-rebutted. If it goes much farther, it just degenerates into a game of who gets in the last word...as if that seals the matter on right and wrong. ;)

The old saying theres more than one way to skin a cat applies here also. Find what works for you and your animals. It might take trying a couple of different ways to do that.

So.. Because you have 5 snakes, you've come to this conclusion?

You also realize that fat snakes make horrible breeders, right? Excessive calcium can also lead to seizures and muscle problems as can too little. Stop supplementing the complete diet, they are getting all they need. How do you think baby cornsnakes survive on pinky mice that are barely anything but cartilage and goo? It's because that is all they NEED. Would you supplement your dog's complete dog food with multivitamins/minerals because you didn't think it was complete enough? Do wild snakes get their food handed to them on tongs/paper plates and covered in calcium powder? No.. But hey, they thrive, reproduce and grow perfectly fine. If they didn't, nature would find a way to fix it.

The snakes know what their bodies need and whatever else isn't needed, is excreted. I have a female here who is getting ready for breeding season again. She is 2300g and eats 4-5 mice a week(normally she gets 3 medium adults, unless I have leftovers). She gains weight steadily and at a rapid pace, but she also doesn't defecate more than once a month. This means she's getting an adequate supply of food without being excessive. If she wasn't getting enough calcium, then her eggs would have been undercalcified. She laid 7 HUGE eggs and all were perfectly smooth and white, not even any windowed areas. Needless to say, she's getting what she needs.

And how do you not prevent a bite if the snake grabs a rodent wrong? I know which snake is my stupid eater(one out of 40), so I always watch her and have my hemostats ready. Usually though, she grabs the mouse just fine and even if it does get a nip in, she just constricts tighter. Heaven forbid one of her scales has a minute scratch on it.

A non-breeding Ball does NOT need a large prey item once every 2 weeks. Even my 26lb boa who is almost 8ft long, only gets a 2 POUND, 5-6 week old, rabbit ONCE per month. Why? Because she doesn't need anymore food than that.

Constrictors have VERY slow metabolisms. In the wild, Balls don't eat every week, but rather maybe a whole litter of rodents they found in a burrow, which will last them 2-3 months(or longer). They don't need copious amounts of food to grow, thrive, reproduce and do it all over again. They have evolved this way for a reason.

Since no one has published test results on how much calcium, or whatever vitamin or mineral you choose, a Ball Python needs, then your reasoning has no basis. You could actually be doing harm to your snakes by oversupplementing. When people say a small rat, they mean a rat that is 4-5 weeks old(weaned or a small-small) and one that is around 45-60g in weight. If you've ever raised rats, you would know that babies this size(I've had 2-3 week olds that weighed this much, but they are pets) cannot bite hard whatsoever. Weaned rats' skeletons are fully formed at this point and contain all the calcium a snake will ever need. Yes, a larger rat's skeleton may be bigger, but that doesn't mean it's better than feeding a weaned rat. Large rats are dangerous and there is NO need whatsoever to be feeding that size rat to a Ball Python. They will likely fast for a month or more to let their body digest that meal and catch up.

I know if I was feeding frozen, I would have a TON of wasted, dead mice that I would have to throw away. And that just isn't wise for my budget. If a live mouse doesn't get eaten one week, then I can just stick it back in the tub until next week. For me, live feeding means no wasted feeders going into the trash. It also means mental and physical stimulation/exertion for my snakes. If I'm going to stick them in a 41qt tub for their 35-40 years, then the least I could do is provide them with a little bit of natural activity.

Yes, I have 5 snakes. Right now. I have had more in the past--I'm coming back into herp keeping after a long hiatus.

I'm not the only person who supplements baby rodents by dipping their butt in calcium powder, and doing so is not oversupplementing. I've serious concerns about the health of baby snakes fed nothing but pink mice. Until someone actually does those studies, your opinion is that they're fine, and mine is that they could use a bit more extra calcium.
If your snakes are fine without it, and mine are fine with it, then why do you have to be right?

I could also say something about returning a rejected mouse to the tub, but I'll let the thread rest now.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Yes, I have 5 snakes. Right now. I have had more in the past--I'm coming back into herp keeping after a long hiatus.

I'm not the only person who supplements baby rodents by dipping their butt in calcium powder, and doing so is not oversupplementing. I've serious concerns about the health of baby snakes fed nothing but pink mice. Until someone actually does those studies, your opinion is that they're fine, and mine is that they could use a bit more extra calcium.
If your snakes are fine without it, and mine are fine with it, then why do you have to be right?

I could also say something about returning a rejected mouse to the tub, but I'll let the thread rest now.

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I have a question. Not sharp shooting or trying to start any thing but.

How can you tell whether or not your animals are metabolizing the added calcium

What do you have to say about returning a mouse back to it's tub? All of the snakes are quarantined, have had fecals and vet checks and are healthy. What would it matter? I can see how it would be a problem if you offered the mouse to a snake with a respiratory infection and then immediately gave it to another snake who was healthy. If I offer a mouse to the snake I have with an RI, that mouse goes in a tub by itself for two weeks or is euthanized and tossed(although I don't like wasting life).

And if EVERYONE'S snakes are perfectly healthy, as are the wild snakes, then what makes it ok for you to supplement? Where did this reasoning come from? Who came up with this crapola? What are you going to feed a newborn cornsnake other than day old pinky mice? Anoles? It is physically impossible for them to eat anything other than day old pink mice for awhile. If this didn't work and they didn't grow, I'm sure nature would have found something else they could eat that is more substantial. Pink mice work just fine for a few months until the snake's nutritional requirements change. Then you move up to fuzzies, hoppers, small adults, large adults, and that's about as far as you go with an adult corn.

Unless alot of people start doing radiographs of their snakes' bone densities, and blood calcium levels are tested, then no one will know whether or not the snakes need more or less calcium in their diet.

I'm just going to go off of the 30+ year proven fact that snakes grow and thrive in captivity without added supplementation.