Does anyone not like morphs.....

and would rather have a normal?

Just wondering if there are any people out there that feel this way.

I like the prices on normals better? :D

I can't imagine someone not liking a Pied Ball...
No way! Morphs are the best!

I bet a lot of it has to do with money...people flock to the tables at shows to look at the morphs and then start getting grumpy when they see the price tags...I guarantee you that a lot of the 'haters' will change their minds once they are produced in enough numbers to be affordable in the pet market.

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

I bet a lot of it has to do with money...people flock to the tables at shows to look at the morphs and then start getting grumpy when they see the price tags...I guarantee you that a lot of the 'haters' will change their minds once they are produced in enough numbers to be affordable in the pet market.

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I wish they would hurry up and produce more morphs then! GESH!

But dont get me wrong a normal ball is always awesome. I guess they are just so popular that everyone has them and don't talk about them as much as they deserve.

How many years do you think that will take?

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Originally Posted by Jonny2184

I wish they would hurry up and produce more morphs then! GESH!

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It's all about scarcity...as more people produce more, the prices come down - simple as that. Remember, in comparison to other species (burms, retics, corns), ball pythons lay extremely small clutches. And even then, the odds of hitting the visual morphs are 50% at best with co-doms...less for recessives...even less for double recessives and other combos. While I do think it will be a long long time before some of those "holy grail" type morphs (Lucys, Killer Bees, fill in the blank) hit the $1000 mark, in the next couple of years there will be a ton of different morphs to choose from that will be in the <$1000 range.

It is hard to imagine, but when I checked out some of the ball python groups on myspace, I found a lot of people who really don't like morphs or the fact that people produce them, period. I thought it was very strange, myself!

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Originally Posted by SarahMB

It is hard to imagine, but when I checked out some of the ball python groups on myspace, I found a lot of people who really don't like morphs or the fact that people produce them, period. I thought it was very strange, myself!

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yeah that is kinda weird eh... especially when you can bread some morphs and you will still get some normals most of the time anyway... depending what you breed I guess!

But I guess it's just good experience to start off breeding normals because if you start learning with morphs you might be more upset if something goes wrong right?!?!?

Well, I bet you the breeders out there now don't want this happening.

You figure when morphs hit the market and the prices drop then they lose out. My guess.

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Originally Posted by N4S

Well, I bet you the breeders out there now don't want this happening.

You figure when morphs hit the market and the prices drop then they lose out. My guess.

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That is very true and then it will be cheaper for us to aquire them and breed them ourselves! I wanna breed some Pieds SOOOO badly...

Breeders only loose out when theres that jerk breeder(s) whose only in it for a couple years to make a quick buck and undersells everyone... They kill the price on whatever morph their selling which brings the overall price of morphs down... When I first started looking at morphs this yr hatchling spiders were like 600$ shipped... now you can get on kingsnake and find them for 400... this kills the market a ton bc now theres that many more people out there with spiders looking to produce bumble bees and other combo morphs... The price on bumble bees will get knocked down soon bc like other posters said theres that many more bumble bees to buy...Just look at Mojos... you can pick one up for 500$ or a pair for 900$... together they make the lucy which sells for roughly 5k right now... its only a couple years before lucy prices come WAY down bc so many more people are going to be breeding for lucys with such a cheap start up price... What needs to happen is BP breeders need to join and prevent this from happening some how but thats nearly impossible.

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Originally Posted by Jonny2184

I can't imagine someone not liking a Pied Ball...
No way! Morphs are the best!

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*raises hand*

The pastel pieds are nice though...

also there are alot of people that think morphs are ruining the purity of the animal. they think that because most of morphs are not natural (most are made in captivity), that it is like breeders are mad scientists trying to create some new ball python.

i am sure someone can put it in better words....

Well, honestly...if you are a new breeder looking to make $ why not sell them at the lower price to make your money at a quicker pace.

It's a business move though it does hurt other breeders but you gotta think they are your competition.

Plus the cheaper the morphs the better because it makes them more affordable.

I cant wait to get a house to add more to my collection. First place I'm hitting is kingsnake due to the prices.

I've seen spiders on there for 250.00 and mojaves for 300.00.

im not a hater of morphs

however i feel that normals are being over shadowed by the morph market

we you look at the diversity of normals i find them amazing i cant see how people dont like them


(also i wouldnt say no to a pied if your offering) J/k

:D :eek: :D :) :confused:

martyb i totally agree.

i chose to have a normal royal python and still payed a lot for it from a local guy. 75 pounds sterling, thats about 145 bucks but i dont care... one off payment and all that.
i do prefer normals although i like the silvery one posted the other day. its the original colours that made me want one in the first place. the morphs are nice dont get me wong but will never gain normal status in my book :)

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Originally Posted by martyb

however i feel that normals are being over shadowed by the morph market

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Great point.

Where would we be without normals?

N4S... It may seem like a wise decision to lower your price so you can get rid of your stock quicker and make your money back but overall your making less and less money every yr so from a business point of view lowering your price is a bad idea... Say everyones price for a spider is 600 and you drop it to 400... your snake may be cheaper but hows the quality?? If someones looking to breed the snake their buying from you they want a quality good looking snake... If your snakes 400$ im def. going to compare it with the rest of the breeders looks wise... most all future snake breeders are more than willing to cough up the extra cash for a quality snake bc quality snakes make quality babies... Just check out NERD and RD... their snakes sell for much higher than those on kingsnake bc people are willing to pay extra to get a quality morph and they have no problem selling snakes... from a business aspect say you drop yours 200$ ... well next yr the majority of people are gonna have to drop theirs... then what you drop it another 100$?... you can see the pattern and the price is going down meaning as a breeder your making less and less every yr... you sold spiders for 400 last yr and this yr your selling them for 300... yes its still 300$ but if you got 10 snakes to sell you just lost 1,000$ dropping the price that 100$... not sure if this makes any sense but having studied business management for 4 yrs I know from a business perspective dropping the price does not lead to making more money you need to stay with the market not kill the market. It makes it more affordable for people to buy but then spiders are a dime a dozen... soon bumble bees are a dime a dozen... so on and so forth.

Your totaly right normals are great. I think its every ball python lovers first ball python?!?! Def. my first ball!!!

The fact about the prices are true.

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What needs to happen is BP breeders need to join and prevent this from happening some how but thats nearly impossible.

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This is the ideal situation from a breeders stand point. I believe this is how the diamond industry keeps the prices of diamonds so high. Diamod produvers have vaults full of diamonds that they just lock up and let sit to keep the market from getting flooded. But, from a hobbiest standpoint. I think most of us wish for the prices to drop and be more affordable.

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Breeders only loose out when theres that jerk breeder(s) whose only in it for a couple years to make a quick buck and undersells everyone... They kill the price on whatever morph their selling which brings the overall price of morphs down...

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This is a good reason to invest in recessive morphs, from a business stand point.

just my 2Cents


I love Balls!!

haha love the pun

Ok, I got you but when you say quality please explain what is the difference from purchasing a 5k snake from NERD when I could get the same thing on KS for half that price which could be apart of a NERD gereration to begin with?

Does NERD have a 80% guarantee that says the snake will breed in the future?

I like morphs, definately. I also value a few of my normals that are pet snakes first, and breeders second. I value them more than I would value a $10k snake.. because they are my pets.

I believe colluding with all breeders, restricting the market, and basically ending competitiveness is what we call "monopoly". Or do you like being called a "cartel"? Breeders would end up being hated just about as much as Oil Executives!

The Free Market is a beautiful thing. You just need more ingenuity than the next guy. If you're going to actually make it in the ball python business, you need to either be smart enough or lucky enough to know where the market is going and invest in the right morphs that won't drop in price as quickly.

Yeah, you could have bought a Lesser two years ago for 25k and you probably crapped yourself when you saw them go to 2k in a month... tough excrement. Nobody deserves to make it in the ball python industry.

I'm sure the public has loved the drop in prices of morphs, because they're beautiful and ppl want collections! And I believe that if people also want outbred, better looking, or higher quality morphs, that's what breeders will strive to breed (like me for instance... shameless plug).

If you can't compete, you'll be forced to get out of the way for others who can. The strongest will survive ;)

And the public will love their morphs... or high quality normals, for those of you who don't like morphs ;) I used to be a "pick of the litter" collector of snake species because, one, I couldn't afford morphs, and two, I thought the natural beauty of snakes was enough.

Then I could afford morphs, hehe.

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Originally Posted by N4S

I've seen spiders on there for 250.00 and mojaves for 300.00.

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The saying "you get what you pay for" seems to come to mind. Just saying....

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Originally Posted by N4S

Well, honestly...if you are a new breeder looking to make $ why not sell them at the lower price to make your money at a quicker pace.

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That's how the prices dropped to what they are now. Everyone wants to get their animals sold first and sell them at lower prices than mostly everybody else. Some times, rediculously lower... such as Morph King Reptiles with the mojaves and I believe spiders.

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Originally Posted by N4S

Ok, I got you but when you say quality please explain what is the difference from purchasing a 5k snake from NERD when I could get the same thing on KS for half that price which could be apart of a NERD gereration to begin with?

Does NERD have a 80% guarantee that says the snake will breed in the future?

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Quality doesn't just mean it will breed, it means is it the correct sex? prices can vary dramatically from one sex to another. Is it healthy, mites? RI? wounds, neurilogical disorders? IBD? some of these could wipe out your whole collection. Is it eating or has it ever ate. I see people selling animals close to death. Is it really a het? I have seen and heard some horror stories, animals with gashes, wanna be morphs that aren't.

When I first started collecting morphs I received a pastel male that was supposed to be a female and we are talking big difference in price at the time.
I recieved an albino that had a imune system disorder and died. These were great deals on KS. Those graet deals cost me many $1,000 of dollars and put my breeding projects back years.

Just because Joe blow wants to sell them cheap doesn't mean everyone will follow.
Just because you produce snakes doesn't mean you are gonna sell them.

When you have established a name and a positive reputation then people will buy your snakes and take your prices seriously.

But just because you bred some snakes and think you can sell them cheaper doesn't mean anyone is gonna take you seriously when no one knows who the hell you are.

Yeah you may sell some to some newbies and hopefully you are honest but there are alot of scams, liars and down right thieves out there. Do your homework, check the BOI ask about people on forums and know what questions to ask about a particular morph. Does the spider spin bad? high white? I saw a guy selling normals as cinnies, cheap of course. People selling hets with paperwork they cpoied from other breeders(normals of course), cheap of course.

That is what quality and peace of mind are. Don't get me wrong we all want a good deal but you want it from a trustworthy source, not some random guy on KS. I've been there done that and would like to help other not make the mistakes I made when I started.


Best one yet a friend of a friend bought a BP morph for over a grand($1,000) on KS, great deal and got a corn snake. Ouch!

west coasts post says it all pretty much... Right now I am a nobody in the world of ball pythons... Next yr will be my first yr breeding and I plan on breeding for atleast 15yrs or more. I have the same struggle infront of me that every reputable breeder has gone through, Gaining the trust of the customers in the market you compete in... As Raul stated just because I throw out a low price doesnt make me a guy you can trust sending 1,000$ to. It's something that will take time, patience, and most importantly hard work.

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Originally Posted by westcoastjungle

Best one yet a friend of a friend bought a BP morph for over a grand($1,000) on KS, great deal and got a corn snake. Ouch!

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That's way beyond rip off man.

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Originally Posted by bait4snake

I believe colluding with all breeders, restricting the market, and basically ending competitiveness is what we call "monopoly". Or do you like being called a "cartel"? Breeders would end up being hated just about as much as Oil Executives!

The Free Market is a beautiful thing. You just need more ingenuity than the next guy. If you're going to actually make it in the ball python business, you need to either be smart enough or lucky enough to know where the market is going and invest in the right morphs that won't drop in price as quickly.

Yeah, you could have bought a Lesser two years ago for 25k and you probably crapped yourself when you saw them go to 2k in a month... tough excrement. Nobody deserves to make it in the ball python industry.

I'm sure the public has loved the drop in prices of morphs, because they're beautiful and ppl want collections! And I believe that if people also want outbred, better looking, or higher quality morphs, that's what breeders will strive to breed (like me for instance... shameless plug).

If you can't compete, you'll be forced to get out of the way for others who can. The strongest will survive ;)

And the public will love their morphs... or high quality normals, for those of you who don't like morphs ;) I used to be a "pick of the litter" collector of snake species because, one, I couldn't afford morphs, and two, I thought the natural beauty of snakes was enough.

Then I could afford morphs, hehe.

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I completely agree. I'm am new to the breeding scene, and I think that the open market is what makes it so great. Is the purpose of the reputable breeder to keep these morphs, and the animals that carry them, exclusive and keep them only in the hand of the high end breeders? In my opinion, the whole purpose of breeding for these morphs it to create more of them. This in turn causing the price to decline because they are no longer so rare. I think this is a great thing, and either way is inevitable. Those who know their animals are of superior quality, and have the reputation to back it, have no problem selling there animals at a premium. Only by the market prices continuing to decline can the general herper afford to own these beautiful morphs. I think that everyone should have that opportunity. The breeders who will succeed are the ones who are able to adapt to the prices, keep there eye on the future, and develop the "next big morph" that will claim those higher prices.

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Originally Posted by N4S

Ok, I got you but when you say quality please explain what is the difference from purchasing a 5k snake from NERD when I could get the same thing on KS for half that price which could be apart of a NERD gereration to begin with?

Does NERD have a 80% guarantee that says the snake will breed in the future?

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I've noticed you mention NERD a few times. This thread, the $30K snake thread. Do you have a particular problem with NERD specifically, or is this the only big named breeder you are aware of and it's just coincidence?

You are buying more than a snake from a reputable breeder with the experience that NERD has, or any of the other big names. You are also getting support for the life of your animal. Any questions you have, they will always be willing to help you. Their animals are going to be superior quality, both in looks and in health.

I personally want to buy an animal because it's the best example I can buy, not the cheapest, but also low grade. I'm not saying a small breeder won't have high quality as well, but then those that do are going to most likely ask more than your average KS advertiser.

I didn't buy a pastel just for the sake of having a pastel. I wanted the best I could get, and I was VERY picky (just ask Adam how many pictures he sent me how picky I was). I was willing to pay what Adam asked, because I got the exact pastel I wanted, and I didn't compromise. I also have a great breeder backing him and who will support me in my breeding efforts as well.

I for one agree with Aj, don't fancy the pieds to much. Most morphs have been found in the wild. The only ones havent, are the majority of your designer morphs. Which, I am sure one or two have poped up in Africa.

i like morphs for what they are, but when people talk down about "normals", they lose respect in my book. Because the only difference is the color or their skin, nothing else... For some reason I feel like this has been said before... Over various circumstances....

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Originally Posted by Gooseman

i like morphs for what they are, but when people talk down about "normals", they lose respect in my book. Because the only difference is the color or their skin, nothing else... For some reason I feel like this has been said before... Over various circumstances....

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Well, you do know how much I adore my normals! :D

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Well, you do know how much I adore my normals! :D

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Reduced normals are the best, I love your normals!:D

i love normals... cant afford morphs otherwise id have a couple...

but i still like normals the best.

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Originally Posted by stangs13

Reduced normals are the best, I love your normals!:D

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Thanks Justin! :)

I love my morphs indeed, and you do get what you pay for, I'm paying 800 dollars for a Spider. Sometime soon, whenever my breeder gets some babies available. I have a breeder in PA, that I personally love, he breeds beautiful snakes, all are healthy with awesome morphs. Great feeders! etc. So I personally think 800 is not bad, if I want quailty I pay for it right? :)

it's distressing to me that just about any thread about morphs turns into a discussion about money.


as for me, I look for a snake that is beautiful to me. In my case, high contrast and a clean/reduced pattern are what makes me go WOW. I like yellows, browns, and orange, and strong black color.
So in my case, I like pastels! I like normals as a second choice, and most morphs don't float my boat because reduced coloration is often the highlight.

I do think that all morphs are really interesting though....the endless variety is fascinating and all animals are beautiful in their own right :)

They are all very cool in there own way!

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.

I like'm all

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Well, you do know how much I adore my normals! :D

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Really? i could never tell! :P

But in all seriousness, do I like morphs? yes! Do I want to own several? yes!

However, I do not think there's any morph particularly BETTER than a normal. Think of all the years of adaptation that went into designing the "ultimate" bp, one that could succeed in the natural world/environment. To me there's something very beautiful about that. All too often it seems as though people itemize morphs by turning them into "projects" or ways to make a buck. Which is why I have huge respect for breeders out there that show dedication/love to their animals no matter what their genetic patterns may be. The most recent of which was noticing jamie's ad for some "normal" males he has, and how much effort he is putting into finding these "normals" excellent homes, and offering to take them back if the new owner decides they can no longer provide an optimal home for them. Instances such as this make me feel much better about the people involved in this "industry". At the end of the day, morphs should only broaden the appeal of a species, rather than become the driving factor.

:2cent:

The whole idea here is that there are so many different morphs and color schemes from normal to all white and everything in between, that there is literally something for everyone. Some like the real dark morphs and others like them yellow. That's why ball pythons are my favorite reptile ever and there will always be something "fresh" being produced that might catch my eye.

People who say that morphs are "ruining" the species don't have a clue as to what they're talking about. These are probably the same people with a Candy Cane corn snake in a 10 gallon in their bedroom, totally unaware of the generations upon generations of selective breeding that produced their "more pure" animal, lol...

I still think, unfortunately, that a lot of comes down to money. Its just the reality of it. I've kept my ears open at shows and worked in a pet store long enough to get a lot of feedback from "every day" type people concerning ball python morphs and 99% of the time it all boils down to the prices of the high end morphs. I can see how placing a stunning animal in a display and then pricing it higher than the cost of the car that most people drove to the show can make people a little bitter...just my .02

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

The whole idea here is that there are so many different morphs and color schemes from normal to all white and everything in between, that there is literally something for everyone. Some like the real dark morphs and others like them yellow. That's why ball pythons are my favorite reptile ever and there will always be something "fresh" being produced that might catch my eye.

People who say that morphs are "ruining" the species don't have a clue as to what they're talking about. These are probably the same people with a Candy Cane corn snake in a 10 gallon in their bedroom, totally unaware of the generations upon generations of selective breeding that produced their "more pure" animal, lol...

I still think, unfortunately, that a lot of comes down to money. Its just the reality of it. I've kept my ears open at shows and worked in a pet store long enough to get a lot of feedback from "every day" type people concerning ball python morphs and 99% of the time it all boils down to the prices of the high end morphs. I can see how placing a stunning animal in a display and then pricing it higher than the cost of the car that most people drove to the show can make people a little bitter...just my .02

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Brad I agree 100%

The morphs are great, I agree. I would love to have a pastel, carmel, and even a mojo. But Unfortunately I will probably never have the opportunity to have one of those. Reason because they are way outside what I can afford and would be willing to spend. Yes they are great looking and gain much attention but it will always come down to the money unless you have won the lotto or are sitting on a gold mine of inhereted money from someplace.
My big question I have is other then just finding the right snake wih the right traits and taking a crap shoot at hoping to get a great looking morph does it cost any thing extra to reproduce? From like feeding, to heat, to incubating, etc. Is it the same cost to the buisness or individual to breed regardless if it is a normal or a morph? the only increase in price is what you might have payed for the snake(s) you are using for the breeding purposes. It's not like there is an additive in the food or an injection to give. it's just a crap shoot. As far as quality, it comes from reputation of a breeder. obviously a buisness that is running may offer a gaureentee of some sort if the snake dies during shipping or becomes ill or sick shortly after the purchaser recieves it.
I just got my first ball in June. as I stated I want more and not for breeding. I really have no intent on breeding. Yes I might want to take a stab at it once sometime in the future. I really want them for looks and for pets cause I think they are cool. But still find that hump wth the price. Heck I just found a breeder in Erie PA that I met at a herp show here on sunday. I bought a savanna monitor him for like $25 and almost bought a Green Iguana he was selling for $10. I just found out he has pastels for $100 which is a great price but I'm still grinding my teeth to et over the $100 mark.

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Originally Posted by Whodinidunit

The morphs are great, I agree. I would love to have a pastel, carmel, and even a mojo. But Unfortunately I will probably never have the opportunity to have one of those. Reason because they are way outside what I can afford and would be willing to spend. Yes they are great looking and gain much attention but it will always come down to the money unless you have won the lotto or are sitting on a gold mine of inhereted money from someplace.

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And that's really just the way life is - Ball python morphs, to me, are a luxury and like most luxury items, not everyone can have them. It's not like it's god-given right to own a Ferrari, right?

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Originally Posted by Whodinidunit

does it cost any thing extra to reproduce? From like feeding, to heat, to incubating, etc. Is it the same cost to the buisness or individual to breed regardless if it is a normal or a morph?

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Absolutely, a ball python is a ball python and while it doesn't cost any more to clean/feed/house a morph than a normal, obviously the start-up costs (breeding stock) to breed morphs is going to be considerably more.

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Originally Posted by Whodinidunit

As far as quality, it comes from reputation of a breeder. obviously a buisness that is running may offer a gaureentee of some sort if the snake dies during shipping or becomes ill or sick shortly after the purchaser recieves it.

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I would argue that most (NOT ALL!) breeders that you purchase a morph from will give you a guarantee of some kind, as opposed to buying a $20 normal from Joe Blow at the reptile show.

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Originally Posted by Whodinidunit

I just found out he has pastels for $100 which is a great price but I'm still grinding my teeth to et over the $100 mark.

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A good rule to go by, is to never spend more than you can afford to lose...to some people that is tens of thousands of dollars, to others that is tens of dollars...I go back to what I said before, that's what so great about ball pythons - there's an animal that fits everyone's taste, and bank account.

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Originally Posted by N4S

and would rather have a normal?

Just wondering if there are any people out there that feel this way.

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I like some of the morphs but I must admit, I am a sucker for the plain ole' normals.
When it comes to morphs, the only ones I'd consider having (or wanting) are the spiders (drools uncontrollably) and some of the bees.

I'd love to have some morphs but I love normals the best. No normal is just a normal, all are special with their pattern and personality...

I have to admit I hated the idea of morphs. To breed for a genetic mutation to me seemed wrong. Look at me now :oops:

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

I have to admit I hated the idea of morphs. To breed for a genetic mutation to me seemed wrong. Look at me now :oops:

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I am glad that your problem has been taken care of! LOL

Since morphs,and genetic mutations are natural,then why not breed them? Thats what I don't understand about people that say that.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

I've noticed you mention NERD a few times. This thread, the $30K snake thread. Do you have a particular problem with NERD specifically, or is this the only big named breeder you are aware of and it's just coincidence?

You are buying more than a snake from a reputable breeder with the experience that NERD has, or any of the other big names. You are also getting support for the life of your animal. Any questions you have, they will always be willing to help you. Their animals are going to be superior quality, both in looks and in health.

I personally want to buy an animal because it's the best example I can buy, not the cheapest, but also low grade. I'm not saying a small breeder won't have high quality as well, but then those that do are going to most likely ask more than your average KS advertiser.

I didn't buy a pastel just for the sake of having a pastel. I wanted the best I could get, and I was VERY picky (just ask Adam how many pictures he sent me how picky I was). I was willing to pay what Adam asked, because I got the exact pastel I wanted, and I didn't compromise. I also have a great breeder backing him and who will support me in my breeding efforts as well.

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Nope.

No problems with NERD. JoshJP7 mentioned them first so I used them as an example. And I never used their names in a negative way or downplayed them. I am aware that they are one of the more reputable breeders out there.