Found at work

My husband found this little one in the Coca Cola plant. It could have come from anywhere with a shipment. Any idea as to what it might be? It's pretty small. Only about 1' long.

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/f...oundsnake3.jpg

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/f...oundsnake2.jpg

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/f...oundsnake1.jpg

Looks like a baby Western Fox Snake to me. Pretty little thing!

great plains rat snake?

It really freaked out some of the men at his work. I think because they thought it was able to "kill" them.

If it is a western fox can they survive in southern Ohio? I really don't want to keep it, but I want to make sure it can survive here before I release it.

South Ohio is not in the natural range for this species (assuming it is a Fox Snake) they range only in Norther Ohio around the lakes. Here is a link about their range in Ohio.

http://www.oplin.lib.oh.us/snake/fac...fox_snake.html

Since you do not know where it came from I would find a keeper if you confirm it is a Fox snake. If it is a Fox and you can find a way to ship it to me I would pay shipping down to my place.

That said I am NOT convinced this is a Fox Snake. My best guess is a black rat, they look a lot like this as a baby. Here are a few pics of black rat babies

http://www.hiltonpond.org/images/RatsnakeBlackJuv01.jpg




http://www.snakesandfrogs.com/scra/s...es/bratjv2.jpg

Black Rats are common all over Ohio and south to Texas even over to Florida so it that is what it is letting it go is an option. As you can see the pics here look a lot like your snake. Fox Snakes are pretty uncommon compared to black rats, plains rats, etc.

It is hard to tell just from a pic. I could not find a good pic of a juvy fox snake but to my recollection they tend to have more brownish or reddish tones in them. I really think that is either a black rat or another type of rat snake perhaps Grey or Great Plains.

Here's a pic of a juvie fox snake...


http://www.chicagoherp.org/herps/pics/snake/xfox1.jpg

It does look like a black rat as well...and that seems more likely, now that you mention it. The descriptions I read about western fox snakes did say that the juvies tend to have black markings on a light gray background and they develop the redder tones as they mature.

Judy,

Thanks for the pic on the Fox Snake Juvy! Wow I have to say a baby Fox and a baby black rat are VERY similar! To determine one or another by eye is difficult.

I thought at once black rat but it could be either to tell you the truth. I lean tward black rat here only because it is a lot more common of a species. If it were kept and fed for a few months or through winter you would know for sure.

Personally I would hold on to him until late spring even if I planned to release him. Then you would know what you have and could watch the change as he grows. If it is a black rat he will start to darken very quickly, if it is a plains rat, grey rat, etc that chage will take a bit longer to notice. If it is a Fox Snake then you need to either take him where he belongs or find a good breeder to get him/her into a breeding program. Fox Snakes are in decline and breeding them is one way to help protect the species long term.

If you really don't want him see if anyone locally would keep him at least till spring as it gets later in the year it will get a lot colder up there. Heck I would love to find out what he really is myself.

Yay! I think we have a winner! It looks EXACTLY like the juvie black rat snake. The western fox was close, but something wasn't adding up. The black rat has the exact same markings on its head.

Thanks so much!

Now I have to find a good care sheet because we would like to keep it for a short time before releasing it.

He's way too fast to hold. Do you think he'd ever calm down?

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Originally Posted by KJE

Yay! I think we have a winner! It looks EXACTLY like the juvie black rat snake. The western fox was close, but something wasn't adding up. The black rat has the exact same markings on its head.

Thanks so much!

Now I have to find a good care sheet because we would like to keep it for a short time before releasing it.

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Just a note on that. As you can see I have already recommended holding onto him if nothing else to be sure of what you have. I would just say being in Ohio consider the cold weather is comming quickly so I would plan on keeping him until spring thaw. That is what 6-7 months no big deal.

Next on care, consider him a corn snake. Do what you would for a corn and well you can just :rockon: black rats, grey rats, foxes, all of them should be treated just like a corn. They could not be easier to care for.

Last be prepared for something many that only keep Captive Bred never experience. Many wild caught snakes will go off feed in winter even start to do so in the fall. Some will, some won't but it happens a lot. Apparently warm temps alone are not enough for many native snakes to accept that they don't need to burmate. So if he eats now but say in a few weeks to say in Oct or Nov. sometimes stops eating don't sweat. Make sure he has water, and offer food for a while. If he really shuts down, goes say a 3 weeks with out eating. Take away the heat, put him in dark quiet area and just keep his water available. You can take him down to 60-65 degrees if this occurs.

Then in late Feb - Early March, go to 14 hours of light, turn on the heat and he will start to eat again. Since you have a baby this may not occur, 90% he will eat all through the winter, just thought I would save you from any fear if he goes off feed. Call it premptive knowledge, :sunny:

Thank you so much for the info!

I feel stupid, though. I thought the pic in the link was a rat snake, but it's a juvie fox snake. This snake looks just like that one. Same markings on the head and everyhing.

He's too fast to handle. Do you think he'll ever calm down? I know that he's just scared right now and needs to get use to his new environment.

I will give him a few days, then offer him a mouse pinkie.

The little guy was really hungry. I fed him a f/t pinkie mouse this evening and he went looking for more. I allowed him to eat 3 of them, but that was the limit. I think he hadn't eaten in a really long time. He had each one swallowed within a minute and didn't waste any time grabbing them.

One thing I noticed that was really cool was that he moved his tail like a rattle snake does. It sounded really cool on the newspaper. Does that confirm that it's a fox snake?

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Originally Posted by KJE

The little guy was really hungry. I fed him a f/t pinkie mouse this evening and he went looking for more. I allowed him to eat 3 of them, but that was the limit. I think he hadn't eaten in a really long time. He had each one swallowed within a minute and didn't waste any time grabbing them.

One thing I noticed that was really cool was that he moved his tail like a rattle snake does. It sounded really cool on the newspaper. Does that confirm that it's a fox snake?

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First it is great he ate, I think with that you can be pretty sure it is ok to keep him through the winter. On your eariler question about parasites just keep him out of contact with your other animals and wash hands between handling them and you will be fine.

One the tail rattle, no, not at all in fact tail rattling is very common in all rat, bull, fox, etc snakes and many other colubrids. I have to say again I would bet 9 out of 10 on odds you have a black rat snake. I know the fox snake picture looks just like what you have but so does the black rat baby.

This weekend I just looked at a pile of black rat babies and almost bought one. Spitting image of your guy. The odds that a quite rare snake from a small area in Ohio hitched a ride to your husbands plant are quite low compared to the odds that a very common snake turned up there.

My advice, feed him, hold on to him and see what he turns into. There is no way short of finding out the subcadual scale count and taking a pic of his undertail and counting that you will know what this animal is other then letting his color come in.

If it is a Fox snake it is quite valuable and indeed I would pay shipping for the opportunity to get a hold of him and hope I could find a mate for him/her depending on sex. Yet a going rate for a black rat is about 20 bucks about double the cost of shipping.

So my advice again, keep him, watch the change, that should be fun. Then when you confirm what he is you can decide what to do with him,

It might look like a Fox Snake but it's main colors don't match one. It looks a lot like baby Rat Snake since the patterns and colors match (and jjspirko, they're not as easy to take care of as cornsnakes; Unlike CSs Black Rat Snakes have an average of 6 feet, are arboreal, and slightly more ferocious than CSs. I'm not saying that you [KJE] should release them though. It's a juvy so it can always be tamed a little bit easier). I would raise it. P.S. The only problem is if you keep it for some years it will be a bit hard to find a cage a 6-foot (and no, that's not their maximum. Their MS is 8 feet) snake.

Yes they can get large but a 8 foot Black rat is like 12 foot BCI, possible? yes, probable, no. I still consider them every bit as easy as a corn snake to care for from a feeding, temps, handling, etc. stand point. Black rats in particular tend to tame down even wild caught adults pretty quickly. Size is only an issue if you don't want a slighly larger container then for say a smaller colubrid.

I don't know why it would be "hard to find" an enclosure big enough? They require far less space then say a BCI or a Carpet Python, there are plenty of enclosures for them. They in fact will do well in the same enclosures that adult bull snakes are housed in and of course bulls are very common captives.

In any event I am about 99% on this snake being a baby black rat snake. Based on the area it was found it and the way it looks that is the most probable. The eastern fox is a pretty rare snake the odds that one hitched a ride from a very small area vs. a local animal took refuge in the ware house are pretty long.

I still say black rat, foxxies tend to be a little bit more banded while black rats are often more blotched but then again black rats vary so much by location, even in adults.

On another note, the fox snake has a back pattern that tends to be more uniform circles while young black rats have a similar patten but their back pattern seems to be more random and very few I have seen and the circle back pattern that foxies do

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pork Chops N' Corn Bread

On another note, the fox snake has a back pattern that tends to be more uniform circles while young black rats have a similar patten but their back pattern seems to be more random and very few I have seen and the circle back pattern that foxies do

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Jake,

Good point! Still it is amazing how much the various rat snakes look alike as babies isn't it. I bet if you took an anery corn baby and said you found it in a climate corns don't inhabit plenty of people would say gray rat, black rat, emory rat, etc.

Kind of sneaky but heck I might have to try that on another board just to see what people make of it,

I hate to be a wet blanket, but if there are any other reptiles in the house, the snake should not be released--given or sold to another keeper, if it's not wanted, but not released. In several States, laws have already been passed prohibiting the release of herps that have been removed from where they were found and kept captive for ANY length of time.
This is to stop the spread of diseases which exotic reptiles may be resitant to, but natives may have little immunity to.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

I hate to be a wet blanket

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:rolleyes:

I have always wanted a Black Rat, imo they are Ohio's most beautiful snake. Below is why I have not caught one in the wild and kept it.
Per ODNR:


A reptile or amphibian that has been captively produced or is not native to Ohio may not be released into the wild. Only reptiles/amphibians that were taken from the wild may be released back into the wild and only if:

• they have not been held in captivity, in the same enclosure, with any other reptile or amphibian, except when used as a food for another captive reptile oramphibian, and

• they have not been in captivity for more than 30 days, and

• they are released near the point of capture, or, you first have written authorization from the chief of the Division of Wildlife.

WILD-CAPTURED NATIVE REPTILES AND AMPHIBIANS

Only Ohio residents may possess a total of four individuals from any of the following reptile or amphibian species or any hybrids taken from the wild:

Reptiles or amphibians taken from the wild in Ohio may NOT be bought, offered for sale, traded, bartered,or given as a gift.

WHEN DO YOU NEED A LICENSE AND WHAT CAN YOU LEGALLY DO?

A propagating license application must be requested from the Division of Wildlife within 10 days after taking possession of any native reptile, amphibian or wood turtle (Clemmys insculpta).

With a propagating license, except for state endangered species, an Ohio resident may possess:

• four total individuals of each wild-captured native reptile or amphibian from the list entitled "Wild-captured Native Reptiles and Amphibians"; and/or

• an unlimited number of animals captively produced or legally obtained from out of state, with proper documentation.

A $40 commercial propagating license is required for persons wishing to sell, offer for sale, trade, or barter native reptiles or amphibians which have been captively produced, legally obtained from out of state, or are the offspring of wild-captured animals. With this license, the license holder may possess for sale, trade or barter an unlimited number of reptiles and amphibians that are captively produced or legally obtained, with proper documentation.

A $25 noncommercial propagating license is required for persons who permanently possess native reptiles or amphibians but do not intend to sell, offer for sale, trade or barter animals. The license holder may possess an unlimited number of reptiles and/or amphibians of which only four total individuals of each reptile or amphibian have been taken from the wild.

Except for bullfrogs, green frogs, snapping or softshell turtles that can be harvested with a fishing license, a nonresident cannot take from the wild native reptiles or amphibians, live or dead.

I think people worry to much about these laws written by people that generally don't know the subjects they make laws about.

Can I advise anyone to break the law? No of course not.

What I will say though is

HOW WOULD THEY KNOW IF YOU HAD A SNAKE FOR 30 DAYS OR FOR 300 DAYS UNLESS YOU TOLD THEM?

So if you were going to catch snakes or other reptiles in Ohio on a regular basis should you pony up for a license? Of course 40 bucks commerical or 25 non commericial why not be safe and play by the rules.

Yet if I were in Ohio and found a single snake I wanted to keep and it was not threatened or endangered would I take it? Well, you make your own guess on the answer to that one.

Our nation is becomming one where every damn thing is illegal! Some places have laws that judge your "thoughts" and punish you more if your thoughts are worse then someone punished less for the same crime because their thoughts were not as vile. At some point people draw a line and to me telling me I can't pick up a common animal and make a captive of it is where I draw it!

At least Ohio is reasonable to a large degree. In Georgia it is "illegal" to own a corn snake including a captive bred morph. Still I know a lot of people that own corns in the Peach State and no one is rading their homes at least not yet.

Honestly the framers of our nation must spin in their graves that we fought for independance only to give up so much of our liberties to a tyrant we created for ourselves,

True, and I don't agree with the law 100% or the ones they are trying to pass. However, I do think that she should be aware of the laws. If I found one, I would most likely keep it but I haven't been field herping in quite awhile. Would I run out an tell the ODNR, NO, big fat NO. I can't stand those idiots, lol. They jailed a friend of mine awhile back to make a point. The whole pit tagging thing really blows me away :mad:
Hmmm maybe I should go herping and try to find a box turtle too :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by catawhat75

True, and I don't agree with the law 100% or the ones they are trying to pass. However, I do think that she should be aware of the laws. If I found one, I would most likely keep it but I haven't been field herping in quite awhile. Would I run out an tell the ODNR, NO, big fat NO. I can't stand those idiots, lol. They jailed a friend of mine awhile back to make a point. The whole pit tagging thing really blows me away :mad:
Hmmm maybe I should go herping and try to find a box turtle too :D

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Now you are talking like an American! You don't try to "make a point" with our government you opperate outside the system when you can. If you want to pay less tax you don't tell the IRS you spend more of your income as an "expense" and deduct it. :rockon: It is the same with rediculous laws, that make a boa legal at 8 feet 11 inches but illegal at 9 feet. You don't get rid of your snake but you don't hang out in your yard with it either, etc, etc, etc.