Help! New BP Strikes Frequently

I Just received a Ball Python from Graziani Reptiles on the net. He is about 3 feet and 500-600 Grams. He arrived about 5 days ago and has eaten 2 small mice. His environment is buy the book.

However, Everytime I take him out he snaps, sometimes repeatedly. I thought Ball Pythons were suppose to be docile and easy to handle.

Any thoughts?

BPs temperments vary wildly but most will calm down and handle well in time. With a new snake it is vital that you leave him well alone for at least to week to settle in. Most advise not to feed for a week to ten days then leave another week before handling him. Short handling at first eventually stretching it out, let him know that you are not a threat. If he is really bitey then some leather gloves may not be a bad idea at first.

you should leave him in his enclorure for the first week you get him to let him settle in and so he doesnt get too stressed out. his stres level is probably just really high.

Ok Thanks folks - appreciate the quick response.

Actually the breeder recommended that I feed him upon arrival. My feeling on this animal is that he will not stop striking and if that's the case I have a huge problem on my hands.

When I was shopping for a python and doing research, it's funny that no one mentioned that they bite - the answer on this was always - ball pythons are docile and rarely bite.

If this is the case than one that bites is far out of character and I'd be suprised if he changes.

new snakes will always bite at first ddude, let him get used to you, my 3rd ball would strike at me every time I walked past her enclosure at first but after her getting used to the fact that im always going to be around she calmed down now i can just sit around my house and chill with her while i watch tv or something.

I think ti is true that most BPs will rarely bite even if stressed but any BP *can* bite - the great thing about a BP bite (that I have luckily avoided!) is that they can't really hurt you. Dont give up on the little guy leave him well alone for a week then try again. the key is gentle, smooth movements.

Thanks Again - hope you folks are right, I'm going to apply your advice.

On other question: I have a 55 gallon (4' by 1' floor space) and I have 2 22watt zoo-med heat pads under it.

I have 2 50 watt haolgens on top and 2 50 watt incad. red lights - the halogens are on during the day the red lights are on in the evening.

The heat pads are always on. The temp in the tank runs a bit over 82 deg during the day and 75 degs at night.

Sound ok?

Something that needs to be remembered for new comers is that make sure you wash you hands before handling your snake, if you have touched any rodents. The scent of the rodent can stay on you hands for a long time and your snake will see your hand as food. I have a friend that has Hamsters and he just got his first Ball Python and he was not thinking when he refilled the hamster’s water bottle and then tried to handle his BP until it struck at him. He did not get bit but he has learned to wash his hands.


Richard

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheMadNucleus

Thanks Again - hope you folks are right, I'm going to apply your advice.

On other question: I have a 55 gallon (4' by 1' floor space) and I have 2 22watt zoo-med heat pads under it.

I have 2 50 watt haolgens on top and 2 50 watt incad. red lights - the halogens are on during the day the red lights are on in the evening.

The heat pads are always on. The temp in the tank runs a bit over 82 deg during the day and 75 degs at night.

Sound ok?

---

The tank sounds large even for an adult BP for your little guy the large open space will add to his stress. I think you will be better off ditching it entirely and switching to a tub - see the FAQ section for this. If you are sticking with the big tank then you need to make sure that there are lots of hiding space - at least two hides that are a snug fit.

Re: the temps - I'm afraid your set up does not sound ideal. BPs need a heat gradient in order to thermoregulate. The cool side or ambient temp should be around 80/85F the warm side needs to be 90-95F (one of the hides needs to be on the cool side one on the hot side). Properly heating such a big tank will be a real challenge - 75F at night is too cold really and BPs do better with constant day/night temps. Heat lamps are useful to raise ambient temps but tend to dry the humidity out a lot.

My real concern is those heat pads - they can cause potentially lethal burns to a BP unless they are connected to a thermostat - they should *never* be directly plugged into the wall.

I mean this as helpful advice - others who are more knowledgeable will doubtless add their wisdom but in the mean time I would advise that you read the caresheets available here. I think a 55gallon tank is unfortunately a very bad home for a BP, although with a lot of work it can probably be made to suffice. Plastic Tubs are cheap and considered the best way to house a BP - I'm afraid they fail on the aesthetic front though which is why I went with a custom built cage - but they are pricey.

Good luck.

The most common question I get from people when they find out I have snakes is.."do they bite?". My answer is always.."yes". All animals, even the most trusted dog can bite. Give him some time alone. I can't believe the breeder told you to feed him right away. It's pretty common practice to leave your new snake alone for a week, no feeding, no handling. Right now he sees you as a threat. Some balls roll up in a ball (hence the name) when threatened and some strike out. I'm sure after a short period of time he will chill out. Keep your first handling sessions short, 5 minutes or so. Then stretch it out. Don't give up, he'll come around.

Check out the caresheets for sure. There are also some great threads on here about cage requirements.

Good luck.

My first guy struck at me the day I picked him up...now he's the most docile ball I have.
Just give him time to get settled in and get used to your scent...I know how tempting it is to handle them, but he's scared and defensive and in all honesty, they are really pretty puny snakes...they have no venom, and their teeth are tiny...they worst they can do is make a few pinprick holes. So sometimes they put up a big bluff, and it doesn't mean they are vicious...just that they are scared. When you are a small chunky tasty snake, it's safest to assume that any big warm thing picking you up is a predator. In time, he'll learn otherwise.
Let him adjust, and in a few weeks start handling him for just a few minutes at a time...he'll get used to you, I promise.

Well, now I'm confused - much of the literature I've read indicates 75-80 is fine for the evening and 80-90 is ok for the day. In fact the book 'guide to owning a python':

"...77 deg to 88 deg during the day, reduced to 68-75 during the evening."

There is no way these heatpads could burn the BP - I have pressed my hand tightly against them for a few minutes, after they were on for the whole day (prior to getting my BP) and they feel mildly warm - that's about it.

I have 3 hides in the tank, but he seems to only use one of them - I think I may have to replace the others with smaller hides.

The hallogens provide a basking area as they only light half the tank and the red's light/heat the other half during the evening.

The heatpads are not on a thermostat and I used a probe on them and the temp of the floor only registers about 82.

Slartibartfast and Royal herp and others on the topic of handling:

THANKS - I feel much better that he'll get past this. I will take all advice on this - give some time and try again later.

Again - thanks for all the useful suggestions.

bit him back

A couple of things to consider -

Most of those books were written 10 or more years ago. The ball python "craze" has expanded dramatically in the last 10 years, and a great deal more is known about their requirements as a result.

Also, different breeders (and forums) will have slightly different views on things. On a forum such as this, consensus works a whole lot better than having one person tell you feed it when it arrives, and another telling you wait a week. BUT, shipping a snake across the country is stressful for the snake. Waiting a week to feed allows the snake to settle in and "de-stress" before putting a meal in its stomach. A stressed snake is much more likely to regurgitate its meal, and regurgitation is a very stressful event. This is why we advise waiting. A healthy ball python can go many months without food and not suffer for it. So that extra week is a precaution that has no ill effects. If Greg Grazianni told you to feed it when it arrives, I think you'll be ok.

Temps - Same thing applies to a certain degree. I've seen very prominent breeders recommend temps slightly lower than are recommended here. However, 92 hot and 82 cool will help to prevent respiratory infections, which in a ball python, can be fatal. If your snake was kept at 92/82 by Mr. Grazianni, and you keep it at lower temps, an infection is more likely. 68-75 is too cold even for cool down in breeding season, and really risks an infection.

Regarding the heat pads - you are warm blooded whereas the snake is cold blooded. It won't take nearly the high temps to cause a thermal burn on the snake that it would for you. Also, keep in mind that the snake may be lying over that pad for even as much as 24 hours at a time (maybe even more). There's an old saying that's kinda gross, but... If you put a frog in a pot of boiling water, he's gonna try to get out. But, if you put him in cool water, and then light the fire, he'll just sit there til he dies. The snake may not realize that he's getting burned until its too late.

As far as the biting, you've gotten great advice. I like what RoyalHerper said. Its very similar to my response when someone asks if they bite. My reply is "Its a snake! Of course they bite!" Biting is the ONLY means of defense that they have. He just needs to learn that you are not a threat. I would much, much rather be bitten by one of my snakes than my dog, a cat, or even the rats and mice that I feed to the snake. A mouse bite is more painful, and a rat bite is down right nasty!!! I haven't been bitten by any of my ball pythons in probably over a year. And my son and I currently have about 45 ball pythons. Can't say that I haven't been bitten in that time, because I have a little wild caught rat snake that is vicious (or at least he thinks so!)

A breeder of the magnitude that Grazianni is surely can't spend a great deal of time acclimating all his snakes for handling. So you'll just need to spend a little time with him. Pay attention to his body language when you start to get him out. If he's in a strike position, there's a couple things you can do. If you can, reach in behind him and gently stroke his back before picking him up. This will help him to realize its handling time, and reduce the chance of startling him too much. Otherwise, you can use a long object like a snake hook or feeding tongs to gently touch him on the top of his head. This will usually cause them to either ball up or hide their head. Then you can pick him up without being bitten. If you're careful to handle him from behind his head, and not move your hand in front of his face, that will reduce the chances of being bitten as well. Eventually he'll get used to you, and probably be as tame as a puppy.

Best of luck!
Steve

Hi Steve,

Thanks for all your helpful information - however, on the heat pads, again I do not believe there is any way that these pads could burn the snake.

While I disagree with it, your frog analogy is actually an example of why not - since the heat pad is always on (in your example the water is always boiling) so the snake would move (the frog would jump out). Additionally, this example defines the heat sensitivity of the animal – if the snake is capable of thermoregulation then the snake can sense hot and cold and will move away from something that may cause an over thermoregulation in either direction.

Also I measured the temp of the heat pad; it is considerably lower then the hot spot under the 50 watt halogen and lower than the pads that this site recommends in the care sheet. Excerpts follow:

“Ball pythons do very well when heated from below (UTH = under tank heat) and several methods of providing this include heat-tape (such as Flexwatt), commercially available reptile heating pads or human heat pads. Whenever utilizing UTH heat sources you should be sure there is some clearance room below the enclosure to prevent too much heat from building up – this is especially critical if you are using any sort of aquarium type solution which has a pocket of dead air underneath. Small blocks of wood, rails or rubber “feet” can be easily used for this.”

“Heating pads designed for human use have been used with great success by a large number of keepers – but it must be noted that you must obtain one which does not have the “auto-shutoff” feature or you will be unable to maintain your temperatures. These are usually available in large stores and pharmacies for appx $10 and the same caveats for UTH apply – make sure you have some clearance under your enclosure.”

As for the pads burning a snake quicker then a human merely because the snake is cold-blooded and the human is warm-blooded defies simple intuition, science and rationality. The composition of the flesh in both is incredibly similar and both will burn at basically the same temperature regardless of the type of thermoregulation each uses. If anything, the snakes’ tougher skin may likely protect him longer from burns – recall that humans have minimal protection in this area because of their thin epidermis and its inherent sensitivity.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheMadNucleus

Hi Steve,

Thanks for all your helpful information - however, on the heat pads, again I do not believe there is any way that these pads could burn the snake.

While I disagree with it, your frog analogy is actually an example of why not - since the heat pad is always on (in your example the water is always boiling) so the snake would move (the frog would jump out). Additionally, this example defines the heat sensitivity of the animal – if the snake is capable of thermoregulation then the snake can sense hot and cold and will move away from something that may cause an over thermoregulation in either direction.

Also I measured the temp of the heat pad; it is considerably lower then the hot spot under the 50 watt halogen and lower than the pads that this site recommends in the care sheet. Excerpts follow:

“Ball pythons do very well when heated from below (UTH = under tank heat) and several methods of providing this include heat-tape (such as Flexwatt), commercially available reptile heating pads or human heat pads. Whenever utilizing UTH heat sources you should be sure there is some clearance room below the enclosure to prevent too much heat from building up – this is especially critical if you are using any sort of aquarium type solution which has a pocket of dead air underneath. Small blocks of wood, rails or rubber “feet” can be easily used for this.”

“Heating pads designed for human use have been used with great success by a large number of keepers – but it must be noted that you must obtain one which does not have the “auto-shutoff” feature or you will be unable to maintain your temperatures. These are usually available in large stores and pharmacies for appx $10 and the same caveats for UTH apply – make sure you have some clearance under your enclosure.”

As for the pads burning a snake quicker then a human merely because the snake is cold-blooded and the human is warm-blooded defies simple intuition, science and rationality. The composition of the flesh in both is incredibly similar and both will burn at basically the same temperature regardless of the type of thermoregulation each uses. If anything, the snakes’ tougher skin may likely protect him longer from burns – recall that humans have minimal protection in this area because of their thin epidermis and its inherent sensitivity.

---

We can never convince everyone. All we can do is try. Those of us that have been around here very long have seen multiple threads about snakes that have been burned. Again, while every situation is different, and there may be something about your heat pads that keep them from getting too warm, here at bp.net, we try to provide a "best practices" type of advice. If you're convinced, you're convinced. And all I can say is do what you think is best. If your snake gets burned, come back here. We can help you with that too. By the way, in my opinion, about the only thing worse than an unregulated human heat pad for heating your snake's enclosure would be a heat rock.

Again, best of luck!
Steve

Hi,


Forgive me if this seems a little blunt but people keep telling us this (in threads like this one) yet we still keep seeing snakes with badly burnt bellies.

Sadly the pictures have expired on most of these threads but they should at least give you something to consider.

Thread 1.

Thread 2.

Thread 3.

Thread 4.

I think I'd rather be cautious all in all.:(

Oh and flexwatt will happily reach 110-115f with no trouble at all if it is unregulated - and this is in my livingroom which is far from warm most of the time.


dr del

110 degrees does not feel very warm to us when we touch them, our body temps are 98.6 - but it can and WILL burn your snake. I have used human heat pads temporarily until I could get in proper heating devices with a quality thermostat, and even on the lowest setting, when measured with a digital thermometer was very warm. When I have to use one, I lay down at LEAST 10 layers of newspaper over it to keep from having so much heat come through.


If you really want to read the most current in ball python care, please pick up one or both of these books, both written by two leading breeders in the industry and published within the last 3 years. The book that you have has advise from years ago, and the husbandry requirements have changed dramatically since then.

The Complete Ball Python by Kevin McCurley of NERD

Pythons of the World, Vol II: Ball Pythons by Barker and Barker of VPI

Pythons of the World Vol II: Ball Pythons by Barker & Barker, pp. 25-26:

As long as it is possible for the snake to move to a cooler area, we have never observed a ball python to allow itself to be burned on its dorsal surface from a radiant heat source that is too hot; however, over the years we have seen a number of ball pythons with severly burned ventral surfaces, caused by the snakes' voluntarily sitting too long on electrically warmed surfaces such as substrate heaters, under-cage-heating pads, or heated fake rocks. From this we deduce that ball pythons have less ability to detect and determine critical temperatures on their undersides than on their upper sides.

I really hate when this happens:

New Person: Hey everybody. I need some help. Have any suggestions?

Forum Person: Sure! If you correct this and fix that, things should improve.

New Person: I am not going to do that. And this is why...

Hi Amy,


I think we see this because a lot of the advice we give is designed to prevent future problems we have seen before.

Since in many cases the person asking for the input hasn't encountered the problem so we come across as maniaclly trying to fix either completely unrelated areas or tinkering with areas they have already got working perfectly from their point of view.

Well that and we do tend to get a bit fixated at times.:D


dr del

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dr del

Hi Amy,


I think we see this because a lot of the advice we give is designed to prevent future problems we have seen before.

Since in many cases the person asking for the input hasn't encountered the problem so we come across as maniaclly trying to fix either completely unrelated areas or tinkering with areas they have already got working perfectly from their point of view.

Well that and we do tend to get a bit fixated at times.:D


dr del

---

Yeah I get ya... I just don't and never will understand the logic in asking for help and then justifying your reasons for not accepting the advice offered.

Yup, anything with a mouth can and will bite at some point in time.

I agree with switching to a smaller enclosure, be it a tub or a 20 gal tank. I myself prefer tubs because the humidity is MUCH easier to contain.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheMadNucleus

Thanks Again - hope you folks are right, I'm going to apply your advice.

On other question: I have a 55 gallon (4' by 1' floor space) and I have 2 22watt zoo-med heat pads under it.

I have 2 50 watt haolgens on top and 2 50 watt incad. red lights - the halogens are on during the day the red lights are on in the evening.

The heat pads are always on. The temp in the tank runs a bit over 82 deg during the day and 75 degs at night.

Sound ok?

---

i have the same size tank for my bp.. had a night mare getting the temps and humidity right.. here is what i did i baught the biggest uth i could believe it is a 22 or 25 watt.. then i cover the top with 3 layers tinfoilshine side down and 3 layers of ducktape.. opened about 20% of the top .. i slowly moved my water dish closer to hot side till humidity was right ..you need a thermostat or reostat for sure i use restat right now.. temps are stable at 90 - 93 hot side low 80's cool side humidity is 60 62 %

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hoo-t

We can never convince everyone. All we can do is try. Those of us that have been around here very long have seen multiple threads about snakes that have been burned. Again, while every situation is different, and there may be something about your heat pads that keep them from getting too warm, here at bp.net, we try to provide a "best practices" type of advice. If you're convinced, you're convinced. And all I can say is do what you think is best. If your snake gets burned, come back here. We can help you with that too. By the way, in my opinion, about the only thing worse than an unregulated human heat pad for heating your snake's enclosure would be a heat rock.

Again, best of luck!
Steve

---

well being new to snakes i might be wrong but i am sure that they can as i had mine just pluged into wall no reostat and the temp on the glass was 115 deg..

sorry wrong place

Ok, not that I'm an expert, but I do have a very good friend who I direct all my questions to that has raised these lovely creatures for many years. Everything that the "resident old timers" here are saying is very much the truth. Snakes body temp is normally much lower than ours, and in my opinion that would make them susceptible to burns at lower temps. I know that my UTH gets uncomfortably hot to my touch at the glass. After I put about 8-12 layers of newspaper over it, it isn't so bad. And that is a zoo-meds UTH made to work "without a thermostat". I watch my snakes very close for any signs of burn. I am convinced that they would sit right on the heat, even if there was no protecting layers on paper.

As a new comer here I find it very rude to ask a question for help, and then tell the same person why they are wrong, if you know how to do it, than do it. The great thing I've noticed about most of these people is that they will hold there tongue and not say "I told you so".

I really hope I didn't overstep my bounds, or sound too rude, i just work in technical support and get people like this that call me every day. "Hi, my internet isn't working" "ok, go ahead and unplug the modem for me" "that isn't going to work" "can we just try it real quick, please" "ok, but it isn't going to work" "ok, try your internet" "hmm, its working that strange, you were right"

I'm done now :)

Wow - what a variety of answers and opinions - enough to confuse even the experienced. And I want to thank everyone for all there information and the window into their experience.

I am a little upset about the posts "hear it all the time, a newbee comes on line asks for help and then refuses it." First off I'm not a newbee - I have had snakes as pets for many years. Secondly I accepted most, and thanked many for all their input and help.

All in all the only issue that I disagreed with in these posts (and apparently some here agreed and some experienced snake keepers out side of this forum also agreed) is that the UTH's by Zoo-med can be used and can be used with great success if used properly.

I measured the temperature of my unit after it was on for some time and measured it with a digital probe and an infrared spot gun. The results were the same - 82 deg above the subtrate, 86 on the glass, and about 100 on the raw pad itself. These have been incredibly consistent.

Some folks posted that a BP will not stay on something that is too hot to get burned on and I agree, additionally I am quite convinced that the temps of these pads will not burn flesh. Even under malfuntion the heating elements behave like long fuses - if the unit begins to overheat via the consumption of greater wattage - the unit will basic stop working as a result of one of the nichrome elements (which are arranged in series) blowing out.

As for a 55 - I noticed that another poster is using one with success and I do agree that it took me some time to get temps adjusted but now they are fully in the range that is recommended by the care sheets on this site.

As for Oscar's striking - I hope all of you are correct and that I will be able to get this under control - I have, as many suggested, left him alone for the last few days and will continue this for the full week. He is still snapping at the glass, all of his other functions are normal - active, eats well, has eliminated wastes, drinks water, etc. I have heard recently that some of them will never stop this striking behavior and if that is the case it will not be much fun keeping a pet like this for years to come - additionally, I think it will be prudent to notify those considering a BP as a pet, that even when secured from a reputable breeder, they can still have nasty dispositions which are not alterable.

Strikers I just picked up a baby female mojave male yellowbelly and another 100% het albino male. They all came from the same breeder. But the little het albino is a nippy little s@#t. Some are some arent. Some grow out of it the more you handle them some dont. As for the temp thing i dont know what temp it takes to burn a snake. If something is getting to hot to burn a snake it will move. Well how do you explain all the reports of snakes being burnt. Id have some kind of control on the the heat pad. Just cause the company that made it says its safe. Doesnt always mean it is. Theres alot of people on these forums that know and have had snakes longer than you and me both put together. If you asked around 9 out of 10 would say use some thing to control the heat just in case. Whats more important? The safety of your snake and not loosing it. (When something breaks and fries your snake.) Or saving a few bucks and not setting up the cage so its safe enough for the animal. Ok everything might be ok but then it might not. I think thats what everyone is kind of trying to say. If your willing to take that chance. Then why did you get the snake? Just to say you have a snake. Oh another thing If the heat pad gets to hot does short out. It could start a fire. A few years ago i built a rack. Had it wired with 3 in heat tape. Came home could smell smoke really bad. Went to the snake room. It was filled with smoke. One of the pieces of heat tape shorted out. Melted the plastic that covers it. Started to burn the wood. Started melting the tub. I got there just in time another 5 min and my place would have been gone. Or at least the snake room and all the animals. So when it comes to heating things from now on im very careful. Not only for me but for my animals too. Ok now a 55gal tank should be fine if you can get it setup right. If the snake is a baby thats way to big. I wouldnt try putting a ball in a cage that big till its at least over a year old. Still after a year that might be still to big. Not sure i dont use tanks to hard to keep everything just right.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheMadNucleus

Some folks posted that a BP will not stay on something that is too hot to get burned on and I agree

---

Quote:

---

Pythons of the World Vol II: Ball Pythons by Barker & Barker, pp. 25-26:

As long as it is possible for the snake to move to a cooler area, we have never observed a ball python to allow itself to be burned on its dorsal surface from a radiant heat source that is too hot; however, over the years we have seen a number of ball pythons with severly burned ventral surfaces, caused by the snakes' voluntarily sitting too long on electrically warmed surfaces such as substrate heaters, under-cage-heating pads, or heated fake rocks. From this we deduce that ball pythons have less ability to detect and determine critical temperatures on their undersides than on their upper sides.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheMadNucleus

As for Oscar's striking - I hope all of you are correct and that I will be able to get this under control - I have, as many suggested, left him alone for the last few days and will continue this for the full week. He is still snapping at the glass, all of his other functions are normal - active, eats well, has eliminated wastes, drinks water, etc. I have heard recently that some of them will never stop this striking behavior and if that is the case it will not be much fun keeping a pet like this for years to come - additionally, I think it will be prudent to notify those considering a BP as a pet, that even when secured from a reputable breeder, they can still have nasty dispositions which are not alterable.

---

From the timeline I can determine from your posts you've had this snake about 10 or 11 days. Please understand what sort of pet you purchased. A snake, not a puppy or a kitten, and not a tamed animal. Whether captive bred or not, snakes are snakes. Even the best breeder in the world cannot guarantee temperment since reptiles with their reptilian brain are not bred for temperment nor has it ever been shown to have a genetic element for them.

Snakes are simply snakes and all snakes can strike. Most ball pythons are not big strikers but that cannot be taken to mean they won't. Expecting any snake to be settled in within this short time is unrealistic. Deciding that this is a situation that isn't "alterable" is giving up on your snake far too fast in my opinion. Might I ask how much personal experience you have in working with ball pythons that leads you to believe this snake is beyond hope of any change?

Robin, great quote. It just backs up the reasoning that UNDER heating is not natural, snakes BASK in the sun, not from a mystical underground heat source. Common sense says that the ventral scales are not going to be sensitive to heat like the dorsal scales. If you feel comfortable with the idea that the snake will move, thats your perogitive. I've read too many stories about people losing whole collections because the uth went berserk, and I'm still a newbie to this myself. It's always recommended to get a thermostat or rheostat because this does happen enough for us to be concerned about your set up.

We aren't trying to make things difficult for you, we are trying to avoid sickness and death from improper climate control.

TheMadNucleus,

Please understand that I'm not trying to provoke you or "rub your nose in it". That would serve no purpose whatsoever. However, when you quoted our caresheet, it brought to our attention that there were some things that needed tweaking. JLC has just finished updating the caresheet. Please take a look at it. The changes address some of the issues that we have discussed here.

I really do wish you the best with your bp, and hope that you understand that we really do want what's best for your snake!

Steve

Thanks for updating the Care sheet and I have taken a close look at it. And I hope you realize that I take all of these posts seriously and I have not given up on Oscar. Clearly I am hoping that the posts are correct and over time he will come around.

Oddly enough, as I do more research I find even more interesting things about this topic. Things that were not clear in much of the literature at hand in a variety of places. For example, some ball pythons never lose their aggressive behavior - when deeply entrenched in their behavior pattern they will not be tamed and will continue to snap for the rest of their lives. The issue that I have with this is that the majority of the literature does not make this clear enough. Some posters make this clear on this thread and others post just the opposite saying that in time everything will be fine. Secondly, I have discovered from reputable Vets and Herpetologists that the bottom line is that reptiles do not like to be handled, at best they tolerate it and exposing them to handling on a daily basis is not in their best interest - it only makes the owners happy. It is actually stressful for the animals even if tolerated.

What this means is that in your care sheets - if you are truly interested in the welfare of these animals - it should be made clear that they are really not excellent pets, are not really docile, do not care about being handled by humans - nor do they like it. They may have dispositions which are aggressive and if they 'tame' is it only an act of reluctant submission.

On one of the prior posts someone mentions that UTH are not naturally because BP's are do not receive heat from the ground - please re consider this statement - BP's are indigenous to Africa and portions of Africa where day-time temps hit the 100 or more degrees F. In these parts of Africa the air is thin and the sun's rays are intense. It is intuitive that the ground temperatures of these geographic locations easily hit 80-82 degrees F - the exact same range of the substrate in a cage-habitat with a zoo-med UTH (max wattage, on consistently) - I measured them accurately. The heat emanating from the ground is not mystical - it is quite natural in these temperate areas. In fact it would be quite unnatural for the ground temperature to be in the 70's while the air temp is in the high 80's. Furthermore at night - when the air temperature drops - the ground temperature remains high.

Another post asks me how experienced I am in keeping BP's - not very, however I have kept snakes before - a 6 foot Indigo for 3 years, a Red-tailed Boa for 6 years, a California king snake for 9 years and many others. The Boa was given away to a local pet shop when I left for college, the indigo as well, but because he was just too big and a bit fast.

One poster says that I am giving up too fast if I think his behavior is unalterable, but I never said that - I only said that it should be made clear that in some cases this is unalterable and the current day literature should reflect this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheMadNucleus

Secondly, I have discovered from reputable Vets and Herpetologists that the bottom line is that reptiles do not like to be handled, at best they tolerate it and exposing them to handling on a daily basis is not in their best interest - it only makes the owners happy. It is actually stressful for the animals even if tolerated...

What this means is that in your care sheets - if you are truly interested in the welfare of these animals - it should be made clear that they are really not excellent pets, are not really docile, do not care about being handled by humans - nor do they like it. They may have dispositions which are aggressive and if they 'tame' is it only an act of reluctant submission.

---

These animals do not have a tendency towards aggression, so much that many respected and experienced keepers would never give them the "fiesty" attitude. They learn to tolerate our handling and the general consensus on this forum is that they do not enjoy anything, because they are unable to. I have not seen anyone say that these animals enjoy being handled, but they learn to tolerate and live with it. If you've read enough on here, we all strive to de-stress these animals as much as possible with good husbandry and habits.

Quote:

---

On one of the prior posts someone mentions that UTH are not naturally because BP's are do not receive heat from the ground - please re consider this statement - BP's are indigenous to Africa and portions of Africa where day-time temps hit the 100 or more degrees F. In these parts of Africa the air is thin and the sun's rays are intense. It is intuitive that the ground temperatures of these geographic locations easily hit 80-82 degrees F - the exact same range of the substrate in a cage-habitat with a zoo-med UTH (max wattage, on consistently) - I measured them accurately. The heat emanating from the ground is not mystical - it is quite natural in these temperate areas. In fact it would be quite unnatural for the ground temperature to be in the 70's while the air temp is in the high 80's. Furthermore at night - when the air temperature drops - the ground temperature remains high.

---

Please reconsider your statement. The heat is still coming from the sun, an overhead source, rather than the ground producing it. Meaning the ambient is just as warm if not warmer than the ground. So the snake does not have to rely on belly heat. The ground does hold heat very well, but these snakes are also mostly nocturnal, and do not come out until dawn or dusk, when the ground is not nearly as warm as the ambient air temp. This explains why these animals dorsal scales would be more sensitive to heat than their ventral scales. Which is why they would not move when they were being burned. It's very easy to understand. We use UTH because they are more efficient and don't sap the humidity that these animals need. And when they are the main source of heat, it is best to keep it from getting out of hand and seriously burning your animal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kurgan

BPs temperments vary wildly but most will calm down and handle well in time. With a new snake it is vital that you leave him well alone for at least to week to settle in. Most advise not to feed for a week to ten days then leave another week before handling him. Short handling at first eventually stretching it out, let him know that you are not a threat. If he is really bitey then some leather gloves may not be a bad idea at first.

---

The very first response you got was telling you exactly their temperament. This is true, and another responder said that all animals bite, and BP's will too when stressed out. They generally will not bite out of aggression, but more out of defense. It may seem like aggression when you go to pick them up, but again, they are more scared of you. With regular handling these animals will settle to a degree, some more than others. I'm sorry you've never read this anywhere before you purchased this snake, but you also claimed to be "years experienced" so it should be known to you at this point.

I don't understand how there's been any misrepresentation of BP behavior here... If someone honestly came into the hobby thinking that their snake would geniunely enjoy being held and cuddled, I think they need their head checked. Consider this, as a consenus they are considered docile. Each case is different and their behavior as a species can be only be generalized to the majority. In time you will discover whether yours will calm with some handling or remain nippy. There never will be a point where it, or any snake, will be "tame". It is a creature of instinct and nothing at all like a puppy. Hopefully MOST people coming into the hobby understand and respect this of any reptile. So could it not be said, that for a reptile, a BP is a docile pet?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Please reconsider your statement. The heat is still coming from the sun, an overhead source, rather than the ground producing it. Meaning the ambient is just as warm if not warmer than the ground. So the snake does not have to rely on belly heat. The ground does hold heat very well, but these snakes are also mostly nocturnal, and do not come out until dawn or dusk, when the ground is not nearly as warm as the ambient air temp. This explains why these animals dorsal scales would be more sensitive to heat than their ventral scales. Which is why they would not move when they were being burned. It's very easy to understand. We use UTH because they are more efficient and don't sap the humidity that these animals need. And when they are the main source of heat, it is best to keep it from getting out of hand and seriously burning your animal.

---

This is a funny quote - copying my 'please reconsider your statement' thanks for the chuckle. None the less this quote defies logic and reason. First off - the heat is coming from 2 places - the sun and by virtue of the sun's stored energy in the ground, the ground as well. Besides, how it gets there is of little consequence to the discussion at hand. The BP doesn't care - all it knows is that both are warm. Additionally, any recommendation for using an UTH makes it clear that they should only be used as supplemental heating and that overhead heating must be used as well. Between the two heating sources you have the best representation of what occurs in the wild. As for being nocturnal - your statement is backwards - at night the ground temperature is higher than the ambient temperature - air cools faster then the earth.

As for your comment that the ambient temperature is as warm or wamrer then the ground - have you ever touched the hood of a black car that has been in the sun for awhile? It can be so hot as to cause a burn - clearly ground temperatures can greatly exceed ambient temperatures - and by huge margins - depends where. So this statement of yours has little or no merit.

It's very easy to understand: these animals do not make good pets - and anyone thinking differently is sadly mistaken - captivity for any of these animals is a stressful situation and if you truly care about them you would not support this 'hobby.' They deserve to be in the wild where they belong, not handled daily by a potential predator - or boxed in small tubs. I only say this because all your statements are so self righteous and clearly missing the fundamentals.

Something else that is very easy to understand, they do enjoy some things - that may be the motivation for them to move to a basking spot, seek food, and look for escape. It is naive to say they enjoy nothing - you have no clue. They may or they may not. Also you claim that everyone TRIES to de-stress these animals by good husbandry and habits, yet you clearly miss the point - I agree that you do, and I do this as well, however, if you keep them in enclosures and advocate handling them on a daily basis you are, by the very nature of these acts, increasing their stress. If you were truly interested in striving to minimize their stress you would not be keeping them as pets because clearly they are not suitable as pets or at the very least would not handle them - it only adds stress.

Unfortunately - the literature does not make this clear and now I have one, so I am in a similar boat as you. But we should not fool ourselves into thinking that we are egalitarian because we use good husbandry.

Do you have any documentation on the fact that their dorsal scales are more sensitive to heat than their ventral scales are? I'm very curious about this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheMadNucleus

This is a funny quote - copying my 'please reconsider your statement' thanks for the chuckle. None the less this quote defies logic and reason. First off - the heat is coming from 2 places - the sun and by virtue of the sun's stored energy in the ground, the ground as well. Besides, how it gets there is of little consequence to the discussion at hand. The BP doesn't care - all it knows is that both are warm. Additionally, any recommendation for using an UTH makes it clear that they should only be used as supplemental heating and that overhead heating must be used as well. Between the two heating sources you have the best representation of what occurs in the wild. As for being nocturnal - your statement is backwards - at night the ground temperature is higher than the ambient temperature - air cools faster then the earth.

---

And how about for the morning?

Quote:

---

As for your comment that the ambient temperature is as warm or wamrer then the ground - have you ever touched the hood of a black car that has been in the sun for awhile? It can be so hot as to cause a burn - clearly ground temperatures can greatly exceed ambient temperatures - and by huge margins - depends where. So this statement of yours has little or no merit.

---

Last I knew the African Savannah wasn't made of car hoods, rather dirt and rocks, with open grasslands. Poor comparison. But ambient temps are much closer to the ground temperature, making it easier for the animal to detect dangerous levels of heat. I have not studied the African land personally, or the BP in its natural environment, but I'm sure they do not come out in the middle of the day when the ground would burn them.

Quote:

---

It's very easy to understand: these animals do not make good pets - and anyone thinking differently is sadly mistaken - captivity for any of these animals is a stressful situation and if you truly care about them you would not support this 'hobby.' They deserve to be in the wild where they belong, not handled daily by a potential predator - or boxed in small tubs. I only say this because all your statements are so self righteous and clearly missing the fundamentals.

---

Then what drove you to by one? Because it sounds like you clearly don't enjoy this animal.

Quote:

---

Something else that is very easy to understand, they do enjoy some things - that may be the motivation for them to move to a basking spot, seek food, and look for escape. It is naive to say they enjoy nothing - you have no clue. They may or they may not. Also you claim that everyone TRIES to de-stress these animals by good husbandry and habits, yet you clearly miss the point - I agree that you do, and I do this as well, however, if you keep them in enclosures and advocate handling them on a daily basis you are, by the very nature of these acts, increasing their stress. If you were truly interested in striving to minimize their stress you would not be keeping them as pets because clearly they are not suitable as pets or at the very least would not handle them - it only adds stress.

---

Can you prove that a ball pythons lesser reptilian brain has the ability to enjoy and reason that it enjoys something?

Quote:

---

Unfortunately - the literature does not make this clear and now I have one, so I am in a similar boat as you. But we should not fool ourselves into thinking that we are egalitarian because we use good husbandry.

---

Follow your own advice then and give it back so your not guilty of stressing out this animal like you say.

Quote:

---

Do you have any documentation on the fact that their dorsal scales are more sensitive to heat than their ventral scales are? I'm very curious about this.

---

I believe that Kevin of NERD has written about it, it was even quoted in this thread. I'm sure that there are scientific articles out there, but I don't need proof to justify my precautions for belly burns. I will let you do the footwork instead of taking our advice.

Actually, that quote came from Pythons of the World: Vol II: Ball Pythons by Barker and Barker.

If you are truly looking for the most up to date literature on the care and husbandry of ball pythons, then I encourage you to pick it up.

From the back sleeve:

Quote:

---

Dave and Tracey Barker are graduate biologists with more than 65 years of combined experience with reptiles and amphibians. They both have expansive herpetological backgrounds, including work in zoo herpetological collections, museum collections, and field research. Herpetoculture is the main interest of this husban and wife team, and their cojmbined interests and experiences range fro dart poison frogs to ridgenose rattlesnakes. David and Tracey own and manage Vida Preciosa International, Inc., one of the largest and most successful collections of pythons in the world.

---

Quote:

---

Do you have any documentation on the fact that their dorsal scales are more sensitive to heat than their ventral scales are? I'm very curious about this.

---

Since you missed it the first two times I posted it, I'll post it again:

Quote:

Quote:

---

---

Quote:

---

Pythons of the World Vol II: Ball Pythons by Barker & Barker, pp. 25-26:

As long as it is possible for the snake to move to a cooler area, we have never observed a ball python to allow itself to be burned on its dorsal surface from a radiant heat source that is too hot; however, over the years we have seen a number of ball pythons with severly burned ventral surfaces, caused by the snakes' voluntarily sitting too long on electrically warmed surfaces such as substrate heaters, under-cage-heating pads, or heated fake rocks. From this we deduce that ball pythons have less ability to detect and determine critical temperatures on their undersides than on their upper sides.

---

The documentation that BPs are apparently more sensitive to heat (in the sense of being more aware of it) on their dorsal saide as opposed to their ventral side has already been posted on this thread by Rabernet. It is a quote from the book by the Barkers, in other words, VPI, in other words, some people who have a lot of experience with BPs, and a lot of contact with a lot of other people with a lot of experience with BPs. Admittedly, it is anecdotal evidence, not the same as a scientific study, but when you have a large body of anecdotal evidence, and it all points in one direction, that makes a very strong case.

I agree with The Mad Nucleus when he (?) said that Little Indian Girl's argument about the temperatures in the wild didn't quite make sense. How the ground gets warm does not matter; what BPs experience in the wild is that at least some of the time, the ground is warm. I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on that specific region and say exactly how hot it is or how much it might vary, but generally the ground is an excellent thermoregulating device in the sense that it absorbs heat and holds it, so it changes temperature slowly. Animals that live in burrows will have much more stable temperatures than are at the surface. Also, when temperatures drop at night, the air temp will drop much more quickly than the ground temp, so even the animals on the surface will have warmth below them, and for snakes that means warmth on their bellies.

Mad Nucleus's reply had at least one hole in it as well. True, the hood of a black car can get much warmer than the air around it on a hot sunny day. But how many black car hoods will BPs come across in the wild? The ground in a BPs natural habitat probably doesn't get hot enough to burn them very often. If the ground is that hot, it would most likely be when the sun is shining directly on it, so any BP on that surface will be able to detect that they are getting too hot from the sunlight hitting their back. So it does make perfect sense based on the conditions that BPs are likely to encounter in the wild would have allowed them to evolve to become aware of burning hot temperatures and the need to move to a cooler place based only on what they sense on their dorsal side. They are mostly nocturnal, so when they do come out, the ground will not be burning hot from direct sunlight anyway.

The reason we got so off topic was because Mad Nucleus says that if a BP is hot enough to get burnt it will move, so he does not need to control the UTH. We brought forward evidence from the Barkers and general experience stating that No, in most cases they will not move, but will voluntarily stay on the heat source until they are burnt.
He is making excuses for why he should not control the heat source, even if it is only a preventative measure. That is seriously dangerous to the snake in my opinion and I don't condone that reckless behavior at all.

Wow - a flurry of responses with a large variety of views and thoughts on the subject. It would be tough for me to respond to all of these but let me try to at least set some of the record straight (I have life outside this forum):

1.) One poster makes fun of the black car hood analogy based on the fact that none are in the deserts of Africa - this a foolish statement on many counts - but suffice to say the analogy was just that - offered to demonstrate that the ground can and does get very hot based on the location, color, exposure, etc.

2.) One poster said: follow your own advice and give it back. I've considered that but the damage has already been done - I supported the trade by purchasing it and therefore regardless of whether I give it back or not he will remain in captivity and I am sure that I will provide him with a good, properly regulated home and it is likely he may not get that elsewhere. Additionally, my comments were meant to make those who are so self-righteous about keeping these animals aware of the fact that this is not a warm and fuzzy hobby - we are keeping these animals for our own enjoyment, against their will and clearly putting them in stress. So be honest with yourselves - you are capitalizing on this animal's helplessness for your (our) own enjoyment - myself included.

3.) One poster says that no one on this forum said that they enjoy being handled - that is an out right lie - in this very thread - if you review it from start to finish at the very least imply it and much of the literature implies this.

4.) People then are differentiating biting out of defense or aggression, and anyone who answers this is truly clairvoyant - because you just don't know - some may bite out of defense and some may bite out of aggression. None the less - it does not matter as a biting animal is obviously an animal that is under stress.

5.) One person posts how anyone could come into this hobby thinking that the snake could be cuddled - this is obviously an extreme example meant to support a jab in disguise - I doubt anyone thinks this - clearly not me. However - they need to go back and do a lot of research because much of it indicates "the small size and docile nature of these animals make them excellent pets." This is not true for many reasons - however - agreed that the care sheets on this site do not state anything like that. Also - they should go back and re-read the posts in this thread - plenty of them imply that the animals 'chill' while watching TV - make lovely lap snakes, etc. etc.

6.) Someone else makes a statement that I claimed years of experience - that is true - but with different snakes - all three of which never snapped, not even once in many years of ownership. Also - I owned those snakes more than 20 years ago.

7.) Someone posted a quote here from some biologists regarding belly burns and quite frankly it does not tie in with the body of knowledge from other sources perhaps even more reputable (including Sutherland's book, and Vosjoli's book) - but it is interesting because if this is your yardstick then why don't the care sheets on this site completely ban UTH - one contradicts the other - which is the whole point of many of my posts.


IMHO, using UTH properly is far from reckless. I have measured these devices, inquired about their construction and they need not be regulated - it is plain nonsense to assume that they need to be regulated - you might as well be more concerned about the bp's exposure to electromagnetic radiation. There is about as much possibility of these getting hot enough to burn flesh as there is that the BP get struck by lighting. They are very low watt devises constructed of thin nichrome which doubles as a fusing devise, so even the wattage is displaced over a large area.

Yeah I just browsed over this quickly, but thought it to be interesting how littleindiangirl can't understand how BPs can be burned from a heat pad. After using the regular heat pad from the pet store for a while and from the beginning I knew it was getting to hot just by me touching it so i put half inch spacers under the tank and it seemed to help. At this point I really didn't know any better as to what the proper temps were supposed to be. So after discovering this forum and all the helpful info I decided to take the advice and use a IR thermometer to actually see what the temps were from the head pad. They were 110*, and this was with the spacers to lift the tank up a half inch. After reading more about dimmer switches I went to wal-mart and bought a $3 dollar rheostat switch and spliced it into the wiring and now i am able to set my tub directly on the heat pad and keep it right between 92-95. Oh and of course I also picked up a $12 accu-rite thermometer too. Spending this $15 dollars on these two items to have a piece of mind is worth it for me and most importantly they both proved to give the results I was after.

Anyways, I see lots of helpful people on these forums always trying to help new stubborn BP owner that think they know everything about these animals and even though most will not stop for a second to admit that they might be wrong, There is still a lot of people that are reading and learning from what these stubborn people insist to disagree on.

Oh and if "touching a car parked it the sun" was a bad example how about when you go to the beach on a hot day and you walk on the hot sand with no shoes and it feels like it is burning your feet? Let me guess that was a bad example for you to understand too....lol.. but seriously why not listen and spend $3 to at least get you temps right?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pdr-now

Yeah I just browsed over this quickly, but thought it to be interesting how littleindiangirl can't understand how BPs can be burned from a heat pad.

---

Ok, maybe it was TheMadNucleus that thinks they can't be burned. Good Luck....

LOL, im not the one that doesnt think snakes get burned. Nice try though. I guess I should have not used the word "ambient" temperature. The snake is getting a more accurate reading from the over head heat source than from UTH. The sun is directly shining down on a snake, allowing the snake to better judge when it is to hot, as opposed to belly heat. The longer the snake stays in one area, the ground below it cools down. So the snake really doesnt have to rely on belly heat, because it is not a constant emitter of heat. I have worded it incorrectly, my bad. Still the ground does not transfer heat nearly as well as car hood. Really, loose dirt and grass dont transfer heat nearly as well as rock. It really depends on where the animal is sitting when its basking. Anyways, I've wasted enough time trying to explain why you need a thermostat or rheostat. I didn't think no one would back me up on this, but to each his own.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheMadNucleus

7.) Someone posted a quote here from some biologists regarding belly burns and quite frankly it does not tie in with the body of knowledge from other sources perhaps even more reputable (including Sutherland's book, and Vosjoli's book) - but it is interesting because if this is your yardstick then why don't the care sheets on this site completely ban UTH - one contradicts the other - which is the whole point of many of my posts.

---

That would be me.

I think that as a source, many would argue with you on that point. Not saying they aren't reputable, but I doubt you'd find many who would say that they are MORE reputable. Instead of being critical of a book you've never read, why don't you purchase it, read it, and THEN post your opinion on it? Call any of the most reputable and respected breeders and keepers of ball pythons and ask them what books they recommend with the most CURRENT and up to date information and you will be recommended both the Barkers book and Kevin McCurley's book The Complete Ball Python.

Hi Rabernet - thanks for the reply and the suggestion - I wil try to get this book and read it. Your comments make perfect sense - I have little right to comment on a book I have not read.

All I can say to this thread is... woah. But beyond that, I will come up with my own 2 cents.

1) On the striking issue. I agree with the poster that said to slowly move your hand behind the snake and stroke his back to say, "Hey, it's handling time." Of course, that's after things have settled down and he's gotten in to a routine, e.g. what time lights go on and off for "daylight", his temps (90/80 gradient), his humidity (50 - 60%), and feeding. I liked the advice on smaller tank and more hides - you could also post a picture for more advice on tank set up. You could save the larger tank for when he gets a lot bigger.

Maybe only try taking him out after a week or two, or even three, when he happens to be "out and about" already. What we do when we take out Mr. Snake is talk to him first to let him know we are there. Then we open the tank, another sign we are coming in. We put our hand in far from where he sits, slowly moving our hand toward his backside (wherever his head ISN'T) and stroke him gently, while we ask, "Can we take you out?" Then we lift him slowly with two hands out of the tank. We don't control his head at all, but you might do that given the situation. And keep handling sessions down to a minimun at first, only a couple minutes, possibly twice a day and at the same time to establish the handling routine.

2) On the UTH. We just got our BP (first snake, by the way) about a month ago. The UTH came with the "critter tank" 20 gal set up kit. We found very early on that it got the glass on the bottom of the tank too hot. My husband, handy guy that he is, cut the line and added a dimmer switch in the middle to turn it down some. Mr. Snake gets most of his heat from above from a CHE anyway. But, of course, that now needs a dimmer too since temps are on a 93-95/82-87 gradient. We ended up covering the UTH with a ceramic casserole dish that is under the CHE anyway to keep our humidity from dropping so much. So he'll get warmer water, but no burns. We still keep the dimmer down a little to be sure the ceramic doesn't get hot though.

Maybe your UTH is a different brand and doesn't get as hot. Who knows? Are both UTH's only "warm"? One thing to note, what is warm or hot to your hand is different than what is warm or hot to, say, your elbow. When you become a parent, you learn to test the bath water with your forearm or elbow b/c hands are used to very hot water (e.g. from doing dishes) and can give the wrong perceived temperature - and kids can end up with minor burns or hurting. Try touching the UTH with your forearm if you can reach it, or your toe or something. You might feel differently.

3) On the thread in general. I know it's hard being new to the site and getting all kinds of "harsh" feedback. But I think that people are genuinely trying to help and protect your snake. I have had my own moments (kissing snake thread was mine!) here, as well. But don't take it personally. Hang in there and take care of that little guy!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheMadNucleus

7.) Someone posted a quote here from some biologists regarding belly burns and quite frankly it does not tie in with the body of knowledge from other sources perhaps even more reputable (including Sutherland's book, and Vosjoli's book) - but it is interesting because if this is your yardstick then why don't the care sheets on this site completely ban UTH - one contradicts the other - which is the whole point of many of my posts.


IMHO, using UTH properly is far from reckless. I have measured these devices, inquired about their construction and they need not be regulated - it is plain nonsense to assume that they need to be regulated - you might as well be more concerned about the bp's exposure to electromagnetic radiation. There is about as much possibility of these getting hot enough to burn flesh as there is that the BP get struck by lighting. They are very low watt devises constructed of thin nichrome which doubles as a fusing devise, so even the wattage is displaced over a large area.

---

Hi,

Just my :2cent: on a couple of points.

"some biologists"?? you did follow the link and actually find out who they are and what they've done didn't you? Here is the link again in case you missed it.

I agree that using UTH's properly is far from reckless but the rest of your point is based on a completely false premise - that there is only one type/manufacturer and that they all perform identically.

This is so wrong it's frightening.

Over here the type available in stores are extremely weak and generally can only raise their surface temps about 10 C above ambient. Unless they malfunction they probably could be used without any control as long as ambients were stable. They do malfunction every now and again the same as everything else of course - at which point a thermostat might make the difference between a cold snake and a disaster.

This sounds like the type you have from your descriptions.

The flexwatt I ordered from America however can reach a surface temp of 120+f in the same room that those ones only reach 85f.

There may indeed be plain nonsense in this thread but, to be honest, we aren't the ones talking it (on that front at least :P ).

The reason the caresheets don't ban UTH's is because our defenition of using them properly includes using some form of regulation as an absolute must precisely because we know the range of performance and construction the term "UTH" covers. There is no contradiction just poor comprehension.

I agree with you there is no grounds at all to suppose our snakes enjoy handling.

The reason people are differentiating between aggression and defense however is because one can generally be improved fairly easily and if you make the snake feel more secure and it stops being as nippy then I don't think clairvoyance needs to be used. You don't know which it is before you begin trying to fix it but you can try and form conclusions with hindsight.:)

As to your assertion that the species as a whole is not suitable as a pet because yours still nips after a short time of ownership that's just plain daft.

Most ball pythons are indeed perfectly handleable without biting - but it's an animal not a toaster, variability in temperament should be expected. When the sources you mention say that they are good pets they mean the average disposition of all the ones they have ecountered was fine.

I have 5 sitting within 15 foot of me that have shown me no agression and any bites have occured purely because of mistakes I made when feeding etc. That doesn't mean I disbelieve anyone who has one who bites at every given opportunity - we had a speckled kingsnake once that was the most determined biter/crapper/musker I have ever seen even after being in the same home for 3 years. I don't condem every kingsnake for that any more than I condem all of humanity because of jeffrey dhamer.

This rambled on a lot more than I meant it to but hopefully some sense managed to creep in among the random blithering.


**edit**

Wow 6 posts since I started trying to compose this drivel. I need typing lessons.:(

**end edit**


dr del