Breeding Question... Rats not snakes

Ight so Ive had it... I currently feed my balls F/T and I'm sick of them busting open when the snake strikes it... I dont know how other people thaw out their rats but I boil water and put the rats in a ziploc bag and let it sit for 3-5mins... Anywho feeding soon to be 8 snakes is becoming a lil pricy and I think live is just much easier and im ready to make the full commitment to breeding rats... Heres what I need to know from those who breed feeder rats...

1.) I have 8 snakes ... 5 yearlings eating weanling/small rats and 3 babies on rat pups... How many breeding pairs will I need?

2.) How long will the whole process take from start to finish? Like how much in advance would you have to start mating until they are the right size?

3.) How many tanks do you need? I have a 20 gallon and I know you need atleast 2 but wasnt sure if you need more?

4.) Any random tips hints advice I should know before breeding rats?

Thank you for everyones help!

Hi there....

First off, here's a link to a very recent thread that also talks about exploding prey and how to avoid it:

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=52839

Boiling water is NOT the best way to thaw prey. ;)

Secondly, I'll move this thread to the Feeder Forum for ya. There, you'll find some stickies at the top that have all sorts of great info about many feeder-related issues from thawing to breeding.

Thanks for helping me out! Havent really done much browsing around on this site so I wasnt sure where to post it... I have 50 frozen rats left so Ill def try another method such as hair drying and what not but after these are gone Id like to breed my own food to cut back on costs so Id still like more advice on breeding... Thank you

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1.) I have 8 snakes ... 5 yearlings eating weanling/small rats and 3 babies on rat pups... How many breeding pairs will I need?

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I currently have 12 BP eating rat and I have 2.12 breeder rats. So 1 female per BP in your case I would say 2.8 would be good.

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2.) How long will the whole process take from start to finish? Like how much in advance would you have to start mating until they are the right size?

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Gestation is 21-23 days, Babies are weaned at 21-28 days.

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3.) How many tanks do you need? I have a 20 gallon and I know you need atleast 2 but wasnt sure if you need more?

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I don't use tanks so I can't answer that one I use this http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...er/RatRack.jpg (2 female per tub and 2 males running through 3 tubs spending 2 weeks in each)

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4.) Any random tips hints advice I should know before breeding rats?

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Make sure your females are at optimal weight before breeding : 250 grams. Feed Them high quality food. Remove the male once the female appear pregnant. Avoid back to back breeding, give your female some rest between litters.

how many babies per litter? so its sounds like the whole process is like 50 days er so...interesting... sounds like i got a little work ahead of me... How long did it take you to put that rack thing together?

Ight so I did a little more research on the topic... still got a couple questions...

1.) do you keep your snakes and rats in the same room?

2.) Say i have my whole set up ready... i got 2.8rats with 2 females in each tub. Im doing like GA said with 1 male in a tub for 2 weeks... Is this the ideal time frame from one littler to another? As in... the male stays in this tub for 2 weeks and gets both females pregnant... they have babies and by the time theyre ready to be fed to the snakes how much further behind is the next batch of feeders time wise?? I know that question was horribly worded :(

3.) I have 50 frozen rats left (50rats/5 snakes = 10 weeks) How far in advance do i need to start this process so the baby rats are up to weight for feeding in 10 weeks? Im guessing since it takes roughly 50 days from start to finish im looking at needing this project off the ground in 3 weeks right?

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Originally Posted by JoshJP7

how many babies per litter? so its sounds like the whole process is like 50 days er so...interesting... sounds like i got a little work ahead of me... How long did it take you to put that rack thing together?

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I usually get an average of 10-12 healthy babies per litter (The general average is 6 to 12)
I did that in one weekend but only because the drill/screwdriver battery died on me, could have done it faster.

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1.) do you keep your snakes and rats in the same room?

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I actually do and have no issue (My snakes are still agressive eaters) of course as the snake collection grows the rats & mice will go somewhere else.

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2.) Say i have my whole set up ready... i got 2.8rats with 2 females in each tub. Im doing like GA said with 1 male in a tub for 2 weeks... Is this the ideal time frame from one littler to another? As in... the male stays in this tub for 2 weeks and gets both females pregnant... they have babies and by the time theyre ready to be fed to the snakes how much further behind is the next batch of feeders time wise?? I know that question was horribly worded :(

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Planning is the only thing I am terrible out (at least when it come to breeding), what helps is that some of my BP are on live and some on F/T so I always have rat to feed but never get overstock with rats that are too big to be fed due to my bad planning.

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3.) I have 50 frozen rats left (50rats/5 snakes = 10 weeks) How far in advance do i need to start this process so the baby rats are up to weight for feeding in 10 weeks? Im guessing since it takes roughly 50 days from start to finish im looking at needing this project off the ground in 3 weeks right?

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The problem would be for you to already have female up to size for breeding (250 grams) and I would not recommend buying older females that are already proper weight since they might be too old already! Buying young rats medium size and raising them to proper weight would be the way to go, and this alone will take weeks, so you might want to place another order until you are getting going real good.

Be aware that rats sometimes will not breed right away in a new place. You might well have a delay.
Where will you get adult female rats? Buying adults from a place that sells feeders usually means you'll only get bred-out females that have stopped producing mostly. You might end up having to get smaller females and then wait for them to get big enough to breed.
Rats can go on strike for breeding too. Right now I have quite a few rats that are older, and they've stopped breeding, so remember to keep records so you know how many rats you will need to keep back as future breeders. What will you do with 'retired' breeders? Have a plan prior. I have no problem, as I can euthanize and feed them to the monitor lizard(nice to have a garbage disposal).
Plan out the time to clean, water and feed. It's essential to clean those bins. What will you do with the bags of waste?
I liked breeding my own rats, but I've recently gone with a supplier instead, due to my own time constraints. I still have a few adults left, and I'm still caring for those, as there's only so much you can feed even a monitor lizard!
If you get it going well and end up with extras, you'll make some herper friends fast I bet! Good luck!

Here's a thread that might be helpful for you.

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=39864

It does take awhile to become completely independent as a feeder breeder. For some time period you may well be feeding from your own production and still having to buy a few here and there until you figure out your size needs and which female rats are dependable for what size litters.

Personally I'd suggest you purchase a nice group of 8 female rats. Try to get them at the just weaned stage and preferably from someone who already has a breeder feeder colony going. Pet store rats, unless it's a good store, tend to be iffy on health issues. Some herp shows often have rat breeders as vendors. House the females in a couple of groups of four in good sized enclosures and raise them up to breeding size (250 grams or so). Don't worry about getting a male until your females are closer to breeding size. During the time your raising the females you can hand tame them to some degree so removing/handling their young is easier on you and on the rats.

It's really well worth the time to raise up the females yourself rather than buy them grown. You won't know if they are used up breeders or in decent health and in the end, if your aim is to produce top quality, healthy food for your snakes...it all starts with a healthy female rat. :)

i would talk to Sean (lord jackel) he is a pro at breeding rats. he will help you out with the # of rats you need, and the time frame.

personally i think would be too much to breed for only 8 snakes. but thats just my thought. i have 10 snakes and i am breeding 1.3 rats along with f/t and it's working out pretty good.

All of my older balls (yr+) feed on F/T with no problem and I can even switch it up go live one week F/T the next with no problems... I have one female pastel 06 who I got from a breeder and she is a punk when it comes to eating... I fed her live the first couple times to get her to eat and into the routine... I then got her to eat F/T like 2 weeks in a row and then she refused F/T 2 weeks in a row so I've been making the special trip for her on feeding day. I dont mind doing the whole F/T thing and im gonna try GA's tip with thawing them at room temp and warming em up with a hair dryer this week... I think I might take Kagez tip on holding off on getting 8 breeder females right now and just get a couple to test the waters with the whole breeding feeders. In the long run I want to depend solely on raising my own feeders bc its cheaper that way... Last time I ordered F/T rats I paid 85$ for 75 weanlings shipped from rodent pro which is a pretty decent deal for now since I only have 5 snakes feeding on weanlings... I got 2 soon to be 3 07' babies who in the long run will be eating larger prey which will cost me a little more money but for now theyre on rat pups which are only a couple bucks... I'm gonna stop in a couple local pet shops this weekend and see what they have for rats and then Ill decide where to go from here... Thanks everyone for your help... Im sure Ill be back for some more :) I also gotta get some new pics up of my clan as I havent even gotten to show off my new additions (lesser female, male pinstripe, and soon to be female Mojo)

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Originally Posted by Kagez28

i would talk to Sean (lord jackel) he is a pro at breeding rats. he will help you out with the # of rats you need, and the time frame.

personally i think would be too much to breed for only 8 snakes. but thats just my thought. i have 10 snakes and i am breeding 1.3 rats along with f/t and it's working out pretty good.

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Thanks for the compliment :sunny:

It is my belief and with lots of experimenting....that sets of 12 are the ideal number. What a lot of feeder breeders forget is that rats need a break after you wean a litter. They need time to regain weight, bone mass and minerals.

Ideally you would want 12 females and 1 male. Here is something I wrote in another thread about an ideal breeding timeline.

"You rotate the male ever week in with a different female. After about 4 weeks the females will start giving birth. It takes about 8 weeks to get this process started but once running you should never run out of the correct number of feeders.

Here is how it works assuming wk 1 the first female gives birth (to about 10 on avg.)

Wk1-4 the first female is with the male then the 2nd, then the 3rd finally the 4th
wk5 - female 1 delivers - male is with female 5 and moves ever week
wk6 - female 2 delivers
wk7 - female 3 delivers
wk8 - female 4 delivers - you feed off week 1's babies (they are 4 weeks old and pup size)
wk9 - female 5 delivers, feed of female 2's babies, female 1 is resting
wk 10 - female 6 delivers, feed of female 3's babies, female 1,2 are resting
wk11 - female 7 delivers, feed of female 4's babies, female 1, 2,3 are resting
wk 12 - female 8 delivers, feed of female 5's babies, male is now going back in with female 1, females 2,3,4 are resting.

See the pattern? Each female = 1 week with male, 4 weeks to give birth, 4 weeks to ween and 4 weeks to rest. (approx weeks as they are this exact)

I have this same setup but using 5 females for each week (60 females total) and for the past 3 years and have always had the correct number of feeders needed (any excess are sold off to a local pet store or friends)

You can work with less females but you will stress their bodies by over breeding them without the necessary rest period so they will die quicker and produce less. "

Now...this is setup up so you never are without feeders...you can have less breeders if you want but the risk is the need to occassionally buy extra feeders (bad week, sick breeder, etc.) or to feed F/T on occassion.

Let me know if you have any questions.

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Originally Posted by JoshJP7

All of my older balls (yr+) feed on F/T with no problem and I can even switch it up go live one week F/T the next with no problems... I have one female pastel 06 who I got from a breeder and she is a punk when it comes to eating... I fed her live the first couple times to get her to eat and into the routine... I then got her to eat F/T like 2 weeks in a row and then she refused F/T 2 weeks in a row so I've been making the special trip for her on feeding day. I dont mind doing the whole F/T thing and im gonna try GA's tip with thawing them at room temp and warming em up with a hair dryer this week... I think I might take Kagez tip on holding off on getting 8 breeder females right now and just get a couple to test the waters with the whole breeding feeders. In the long run I want to depend solely on raising my own feeders bc its cheaper that way... Last time I ordered F/T rats I paid 85$ for 75 weanlings shipped from rodent pro which is a pretty decent deal for now since I only have 5 snakes feeding on weanlings... I got 2 soon to be 3 07' babies who in the long run will be eating larger prey which will cost me a little more money but for now theyre on rat pups which are only a couple bucks... I'm gonna stop in a couple local pet shops this weekend and see what they have for rats and then Ill decide where to go from here... Thanks everyone for your help... Im sure Ill be back for some more :) I also gotta get some new pics up of my clan as I havent even gotten to show off my new additions (lesser female, male pinstripe, and soon to be female Mojo)

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This really is the ideal way...feed F/T when you can (the math does work out in your favor over the long haul) then "play" at breeding. This way you can work up to breeding over time without the live/die if you don't have enough. With 30+ snakes to feed F/T just takes too much time for me so live it is and lots of them :D

LordJackel:
With your 12 female plan, how many rat pups are available per week? It sounds like it makes tons of rats. But if you feed one rat's litter each week then it's 6-12 per week correct?
Thanks for laying it all out so simply. I can't ever do that.

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Originally Posted by lord jackel

Thanks for the compliment :sunny:

It is my belief and with lots of experimenting....that sets of 12 are the ideal number. What a lot of feeder breeders forget is that rats need a break after you wean a litter. They need time to regain weight, bone mass and minerals.

Ideally you would want 12 females and 1 male. Here is something I wrote in another thread about an ideal breeding timeline.

"You rotate the male ever week in with a different female. After about 4 weeks the females will start giving birth. It takes about 8 weeks to get this process started but once running you should never run out of the correct number of feeders.

Here is how it works assuming wk 1 the first female gives birth (to about 10 on avg.)

Wk1-4 the first female is with the male then the 2nd, then the 3rd finally the 4th
wk5 - female 1 delivers - male is with female 5 and moves ever week
wk6 - female 2 delivers
wk7 - female 3 delivers
wk8 - female 4 delivers - you feed off week 1's babies (they are 4 weeks old and pup size)
wk9 - female 5 delivers, feed of female 2's babies, female 1 is resting
wk 10 - female 6 delivers, feed of female 3's babies, female 1,2 are resting
wk11 - female 7 delivers, feed of female 4's babies, female 1, 2,3 are resting
wk 12 - female 8 delivers, feed of female 5's babies, male is now going back in with female 1, females 2,3,4 are resting.

See the pattern? Each female = 1 week with male, 4 weeks to give birth, 4 weeks to ween and 4 weeks to rest. (approx weeks as they are this exact)

I have this same setup but using 5 females for each week (60 females total) and for the past 3 years and have always had the correct number of feeders needed (any excess are sold off to a local pet store or friends)

You can work with less females but you will stress their bodies by over breeding them without the necessary rest period so they will die quicker and produce less. "

Now...this is setup up so you never are without feeders...you can have less breeders if you want but the risk is the need to occassionally buy extra feeders (bad week, sick breeder, etc.) or to feed F/T on occassion.

Let me know if you have any questions.

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Have you actually kept track of the expenses for food, bedding, etc.. to give at least a close approximation of your cost/feeder? I'm currently "playing" with breeding mice, since it's pretty much impossible to have a mouse that's too big for a BP.. I've only got 1.2 at the moment, but if they breed successfully I will be moving up from there. They're also (relatively) cute, and keep my cats entertained for hours at a time...

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

LordJackel:
With your 12 female plan, how many rat pups are available per week? It sounds like it makes tons of rats. But if you feed one rat's litter each week then it's 6-12 per week correct?
Thanks for laying it all out so simply. I can't ever do that.

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For tracking and feeding math I use 10 as the avg. litter size. So yes you would produce 10 weaned rats (or whatever size you feed at) every week.

Since you simply multiply this system you can get to the number you need.

ie. say 2 rats per tub (24 rats) would produce 20 weaned rats per week....3 per tub would produce 30...etc.

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Originally Posted by CntrlF8

Have you actually kept track of the expenses for food, bedding, etc.. to give at least a close approximation of your cost/feeder? I'm currently "playing" with breeding mice, since it's pretty much impossible to have a mouse that's too big for a BP.. I've only got 1.2 at the moment, but if they breed successfully I will be moving up from there. They're also (relatively) cute, and keep my cats entertained for hours at a time...

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Actually I do...I produce 240-300 weaned rats per month with an avg. cost of $0.46 each. This accounts for the cost of food, bedding and initial costs of the breeders and rack. (I am sure I have amoritized the rack and breeder cost by now but I haven't bothered to redo the math). This "cost" also doesn't include the profit I make by selling my excess rats (at $1.50 each) to the local pet store or local people that need them too. If I was to really track it I pry break even every month.

EDIT: OK I just did the math and if I take out the rack costs and initial breeder costs it means that each weaned rat costs me $0.21 . Using this number I make money each month breeding rats. :D

it must be nice getting a little something back for doing something you enjoy...

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Originally Posted by Kagez28

it must be nice getting a little something back for doing something you enjoy...

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It is very little...LOL

I enjoy playing with the rats just as much as I do the snakes. It also allows me time to breed for colors, patterns and such for pets along with the feeders. :)

You really need to enjoy the rats (or mice) if you are going to breed them...you will spend more time dealing with them then with your snakes - by 10 fold

Wow... That pretty much sums everything up ... sounds like you were the man to get ahold of for this topic!! Your system makes complete sense and I definitely just printed that out... I feel like I should atleast toss you a couple bucks for putting that post up. Not too sure when Ill start breeding the rats but I'tll be a good combo with GA's rat rack and your breeding tips...Thank You both!!!

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Originally Posted by JoshJP7

I feel like I should atleast toss you a couple bucks for putting that post up.

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Money is not necessary your first born will do just fine :D LOL...JK

Actually someone suggested I post it all in one central thread so check it out...might be worth bookmarking for when you are ready.

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...300#post627300