Spins and shakes in Spiders - Genetic Connection?

So here is my question since this is a genetic defect with the spider gene, but not all spider display it wouldn't all spiders carry it. If all spiders carry it then it could be possible for 2 spider that drop a clutch to have offspring that do exhibit the neurological issue. I guess I am curious to know what is known about the spiders and the neurological problems.


Chuck

Just a quick note: I split this post off of an old thread and gave it it's own thread to lead. This way the actual question being asked can get the attention it deserves without being distracted from by the baggage in a thread over a year old. ;)

Chuck,
First of all, I don't know why you call it a DEFECT. I have produced many Spiders that "spin". Some more so than others. However, all of my Spider hatchlings have eaten and grown as well as any other snake in my collection. I sold one last year that was a drastic spinner, and he ate fine and bred at 8 months of age and produced offspring. So, with that said, I would not say that it is a defect, but rather a personality enhancer.

As for some spinning and some not, as many people will tell you, all Spiders spin or shake to some degree. Some just have to be observed very closely to notice it. I would say that it has just become accepted as a trait that comes along with a Spider, and if it bothers you(not Chuck specifically) then don't add them to your collection. If you choose not to get them for the reason of spinning, then, in my opinion, you are missing out on a great looking animal with a great personality. I say great personality because all of my hold back Spiders are very inquisitive, and each one is a little different and keeps me interested in observing them.

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Originally Posted by Master Wysocki's Blog (8ballpythons.com)

The real “spin” on spiders.

Tuesday, February 13th, 2007 When I purchased my first spider many years ago, I had heard and was told about “spinning” in spider ball pythons. The way it was described, I understood “spinning” to be a condition where the animal continually loops their head and neck in a “corkscrew” motion and barely has the ability to sit still. I looked over my spider and there was no “cork screwing” so in my mind, he wasn’t a “spinner”.

Over the years that followed as I raised my spider, I heard a lot of big breeders making statements like “all spiders spin” or “all spiders are tweaked” and I really got pissed off. How could they be saying stuff like that? All they were doing was hurting any chance I ever had at selling spiders. Surely I would produce spiders that didn’t spin and if they were telling people that every single one was “tweaked”, I’d be cooked!

Then, I started producing my own spiders. Within my first couple of clutches I noticed a couple that “weren’t right”, but no big deal, I just wouldn’t sell those. Then I started looking harder. I noticed different degrees of odd behavior in all of the spiders that I produced. Some shook their head from side to side, some spun like tops, and others did the corkscrew thing as they were cruising their cage at night, still others were less noticeable but it was there. The less noticeable ones didn’t wobble or corkscrew, but they held their head at an angle when you looked at them. Kind of like the way a dog looks when it hears something it doesn’t understand. So then I started looking at spiders. Spiders in my friends collections, spiders at shows, spiders in pictures posted on the internet. All of them do it do some degree, all of them.

I’ve read the internet rumors that it has something to do with the amount of white, or the head pattern, or the connecting or non-connecting neck stripe on the animals neck … bologna! It doesn’t matter, they all do it. I’ve also heard that spider siblings do it. After producing tons of spider clutches, I don’t find that to be an accurate statement. I do believe that breeders have seen “spinning” in spider siblings, but I don’t think that it is any more common in the normal looking siblings of spiders than it is in any other normal looking ball python. Over the years (and before I ever heard of spinning in spiders) I have produced a heterozygous albino and a normal looking pastel sibling that spin the exact same way that spiders do. I feel that it is a condition that can effect all ball pythons but for whatever reason is common in spiders. I’ve also heard that the reason spiders spin is because they were so inbred early on in the project … ridiculous. The recessive mutations out there have been inbred/line bred by an order of magnitude more than spiders. The notion that a co-dominant/dominant mutation can be inbred more than a recessive is an ill informed one.

I finally understood what the big breeders were saying. It’s not always as in your face as people expect it to be, but it’s there in each and every spider. You just have to know what to look for. Now I know a lot of people are going to read this and say “no, not my spider”. I’m telling you, your spider does it too. You just have to know what to look for.I’m not sure what the answer is, but I know one thing for sure … spin or not, I LOVE SPIDERS! I love their natural variation, I love the combos that they make, I love everything about them. I will always breed and produce spiders. I will do my best to keep my customers informed about them as much as I am and leave the decision to them. If I have to end up keeping every spider and spider I produce … well, that’s fine with me! http://forum.8ballpythons.com/blog/w...icon_smile.gif

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Bravo! All you need to know...:D

Adam is right on.(As usual)

I myself have 2 spiders(male and female) and one does it more than the other(barely noticeable). They are great snakes and would not trade them for the world. My one bobble heads mostly at feeding time, when excited.

Spiders are one of the best morphs you can have in your collection, they eat great, act great, grow nicely and breed well. I would not hesitate to recommend spiders to anyone collecting BP's. Their combos are the amazing!

It's not like seizures or ANYTHING like that. People just can't help but want to put the 2 VERY DIFFERENT behaviors in the same category and say defect!

I agree with adam on this one. They all spin to some degree. I personally don't see how it can be considered any other than a defect. I know everyone always says they eat and breed fine, but they have not been around long enough to know if there will be any long term problems. No one knows if these snakes will end up living 40 years or die earlier than normal yet. I personally have chose not to work with them because of this defect. I think they are great looking snakes and the Lesserbees (check out the one John Piro is selling on KS it's insane) are one of my favorites but I have resisted buying any because of this. Maybe if someone figures out how to at least minimize this problem I would change my mind but I have seen some that were so bad that they pretty much layed coiled upside down 24/7.

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Originally Posted by pfan151

I agree with adam on this one. They all spin to some degree. I personally don't see how it can be considered any other than a defect. I know everyone always says they eat and breed fine, but they have not been around long enough to know if there will be any long term problems. No one knows if these snakes will end up living 40 years or die earlier than normal yet. I personally have chose not to work with them because of this defect. I think they are great looking snakes and the Lesserbees (check out the one John Piro is selling on KS it's insane) are one of my favorites but I have resisted buying any because of this. Maybe if someone figures out how to at least minimize this problem I would change my mind but I have seen some that were so bad that they pretty much layed coiled upside down 24/7.

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No disrespect John but:

Laying upside down 24/7 is definately a red flag!

Not buying a snake because you are not sure if it will live 40 years?

Thats kinda asking alot in my opinion.

There are many spiders that don't show obvious signs of spinning, isn't that enough?

I think when you are thinking of buying a spider you should investigate and ask about spinning or bobbling and make decisions based on the animal. Just as I would any other morph/snake and when I ask about it's specific traits wether it is how white, blushing, flames, eating habits, pattern, browning, etc..

To me it's just one more trait to investigate.

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Originally Posted by westcoastjungle

No disrespect John but:

Laying upside down 24/7 is definately a red flag!

Not buying a snake because you are not sure if it will live 40 years?

Thats kinda asking alot in my opinion.

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I am not exaggerating about laying coiled upside down 24/7. It is only the front half of it's body but it is pretty disturbing to see.By 40 years I mean no one knows if spiders will live to reach the average lifespan of ball pythons. Do you think it is "asking a lot" to expect a snake to live to reach it's normal lifespan? Everyone says they eat and breed fine but I am more interested in whether or not this defect will affect them long term. I can easily find a spider that does not wobble too bad but that is not the point. I have no guarantee that it's offspring would not be bad spinners. That is why I choose not to breed or keep them. I don't look down on anyone at all that does choose to breed them, but I personally don't want to breed a defective trait into my animals. I am also not breeding to get super cinny's for the same reason even though I think the Super cinny's defects are less severe than the spiders problems.

The one female spider I have does not do any of the spinning or corkscrewing that has been stated.

She does however tilt her head sideways when she goes to grab the rat. And she does a little wobble kind of like an older person does.

I have a spider who does the shakes too. He is also a bit clumsy and wakes me up in the middle of the night sometimes with a "thump" coming from his cage. I just treat him as "special". :) He eats well and will hopefully breed well someday.

My question is about the aforementioned statement that recessives have been inbred more than codoms. Couldn't there have been a lot of inbreeding going on with the codoms initially to determine if there was a super? Ie to determine of the trait was codom or dom? Just a thought...

JonV

I really don't see how a genetically passed neurological disorder isn't a defect, but you call it what ever makes you feel better. I am wondering if this is noticed from birth or is it an onset from being exposed to environmental factors or chemical agents or do they display it at any age with no apparent reason . Has anyone found that external factors increased it in severity of the "condition" in animals that displayed it already.



Chuck

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Originally Posted by Chuck

I really don't see how a genetically passed neurological disorder isn't a defect, but you call it what ever makes you feel better. I am wondering if this is noticed from birth or is it an onset from being exposed to environmental factors or chemical agents or do they display it at any age with no apparent reason . Has anyone found that external factors increased it in severity of the "condition" in animals that displayed it already.



Chuck

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Chuck,

It is my understanding that spiders are all born with this genetic defect. Some just exhibit it more than others. There has been no external factors that trigger it that I know of.

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Originally Posted by MPenn

Chuck,

It is my understanding that spiders are all born with this genetic defect. Some just exhibit it more than others. There has been no external factors that trigger it that I know of.

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My spider barely BARELY has it took me months to see it. But when he gets really excited before a feed or I startle him his little super slight head waggle gets worse.

Mike

Thanks that was what I sorta understood but I wanted to ask just to see if there were people out there with different experiences.



Chuck

Mine does it. She only really does it when you're holding her and she extends off your hand or arm into the air - when her head isn't supported she starts to corkscrew. Put your other hand back under her and it stops - until she goes off into the air again. But other than that she's a perfect snake. Puppy tame, eats f/t like a machine, and so forth.

I don't consider it a defect in that (from my limited observation) it doesn't negatively impact them. If they couldn't eat, or had severe locomotion defects, or some other debilitating issue then I would say, yes, we shouldn't breed these. But right now, I see it as just a quirk of owning one.

Just my 2¢

Yes it is genetical, neurological I believe is an assumption . Someone correct me if i am wrong but I believe there is no proof what causes it.

Some may say defect and some may say characteristic. I think that is more a matter of opinion. I think those that have owned them for years may think the latter and those who don't own one and lean towards the negative say the other.

It is a matter of opinion, thats all.

If I remember correctly, there are normals who demonstrate this "abnormality", or whatever you want to call it, too, and they are just fine health-wise. So it's not just Spiders.

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Originally Posted by westcoastjungle

Yes it is genetical, neurological I believe is an assumption . Someone correct me if i am wrong but I believe there is no proof what causes it.

Some may say defect and some may say characteristic. I think that is more a matter of opinion. I think those that have owned them for years may think the latter and those who don't own one and lean towards the negative say the other.

It is a matter of opinion, thats all.

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No one knows what causes it is right Raul. Whether its from excessive inbreeding from the original gene from Africa or if it is simply part of the complex process that makes a mutation to start with we may never know.

What I do know is that I love spiders Plan on having tons of them and the combos. So for those people afraid to buy them thats fine MORE FOR ME.

My question is and not to get off track but do Bees, and other spider crosses exhibit this or just the base morph ?

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Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

If I remember correctly, there are normals who demonstrate this "abnormality", or whatever you want to call it, too, and they are just fine health-wise. So it's not just Spiders.

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True. I have a 1800 gram normal female that has what I call a 'twitch or tweak'...If you watch her with her head/neck extended she moves her head in VERY slight circular motions...and on rare occasion will twitch her head from side to side. I've tried to catch her odd behavior on video...but its just so subtle... yet noticable enough that none of my others to anything similar.

However...I've had her since she was 600 grams...she eats fine, passes waste and urates fine, sheds without issue, and hopefully this winter will breed and produce viable eggs just as well.

Watch your snakes closely...I bet you'd pick out a few odd behaviors in one or two.. I have another snake that will move about oddly compared to my others, when lights are off.

Haha Freaky Frog I was just about to ask the same thing. I haven't ever heard of the spider crosses displaying that kind of behavior, but I wasn't sure if that was just me or what.

When I hear about a spinner, I always wonder if it something to do with their equilibrum. The corkscrewing ans stuff almost sounds like they are trying to right themselves, but can't figure out what way is up. I don't konw that I would ever breed them, I just don't think I could handle it if I ended up with a trainwreck spinner, but I love the combos, and they are awsome looking snakes. I know for a fact that I wouldn't breed a bad spinner though....

freakie_frog, all combos that include the spider trait are predisposed to spinning just like a normal spider does.

Justin

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Originally Posted by jkobylka

freakie_frog, all combos that include the spider trait are predisposed to spinning just like a normal spider does.

Justin

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Thanks Justin! I just never hear people whining about the Bee's spinning or any other Bee combo just the base morph.

Again thanks hey you going to make the show next weekend? I would love to meet you.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Thanks Justin! I just never hear people whining about the Bee's spinning or any other Bee combo just the base morph.

Again thanks hey you going to make the show next weekend? I would love to meet you.

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They are way too cool to complain about! :D

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Originally Posted by westcoastjungle

They are way too cool to complain about! :D

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BAM i agree, gotta luv them.

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil.../9/spi0527.JPG



vaughn

Rock on guys breed em till the bottom falls out.


Chuck

I must have a Spider that was imported from the planet Neptune or something. My male has never done any of these weird things that people keep describing. If it is said that "every Spider has this gene" then I want to know who proved this and what the name and code of the gene is.
My Spider just acts like every other ball python I have ever seen; he has his quirks like they all do. He is shy and has never struck at me, and goes off feed for a few weeks off and on like pretty-much any BP in anyone's racks anywhere in the world. I think that my heart would stop if I saw him flipping around his cage or shaking like a Parkinson's disease patient.. am I living in a bubble or something or does anyone else have a Spider that does not exhibit these syptoms?
Mine was produced by John Courtney.
On a side note: I would definately think that doms would be much less inbred than recessives. Hets are not needed; Pastels and Spiders are bred to normals of unknown lineage all of the time.. so I see little inbreeding in them at present time!
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...g?t=1189121304

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Originally Posted by Chuck

Rock on guys breed em till the bottom falls out.


Chuck

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if people were produceing dogs that shook like they had parkensens(sp) and the breeder just said its ok its actually cute. the dog world would eat them alive. and call them a puppy mill that only cares about money. no matter how you slice it. i have a spider and if any one of them ever even show so much as a head shack i would not breed it. and you can quote me on this years form now if i ever sell any one a spider with wobbles.

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

On a side note: I would definately think that doms would be much less inbred than recessives. Hets are not needed; Pastels and Spiders are bred to normals of unknown lineage all of the time.. so I see little inbreeding in them at present time!
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...g?t=1189121304

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if i am not mistaken wernt all spiders from one captive one that nerd had?

gen that is a nice spider. he is hot

I'm not sure if Kara's going to chime in on this thread, but she and I were talking about this issue last Spring and she said at the time that she thought the whole "all spiders spin" thing wasn't correct. She wasn't denying that -some- spiders spin, but she didn't think that all of them do.

Kara can speak for herself, of course, and I hope she does :) Just thought I'd add that.

Even if all of the spiders were from one that NERD had, that still wouldn't account for inbreeding. If Nerd had one spider, they'd breed it to normals and get more spiders and know that it was Dom or Co-Dom then they don't need to breed those back to parents unless they were checking to see if they were co-dom and had a super form.

Either way. I've seen a spider or two with bigger spinning issues and I must admit it's a sad sight. I haven't had enough to be able to agree with some of the other breeders that all exhibit this behavior.

Either way, I'll be looking to breed spiders in because one of my favorites is a lesser-bee :)

Hi,


Quick question.

I understand the refusal to breed from a spider that shows a noticeable problem with this but is there actally any evidence that they would produce offspring more likely to do it than those with a barely noticeable head tilt?

Don't misunderstand me I fully stand by the idea of only using the best breeding stock you can and attempting to eradicate any "undesirable traits" that show up. I just wondered if that hold true in this case or if the problem is like the amount of white in piebalds and low can throw high and high can throw low.


dr del

this topic has intrigued me for a cple o' years ! here's my thoughts on it ..... inbreeding ? cant see how given whats already known about spider gene ..ie breed to normals get more spiders/normals so can be out crossed to a great degree , using different normals with the new spiders. Expanding a gene pool not reducing it .

I am wondering if its actually more like say the eyesight in albinoism ...ie weaker sighted animal that normal. Let me explain , I once came across a friend that had a spider that would loop the loop. Twas like losing its balance to a degree , BUT when ever it was near natural light . it seemed fine . rited itself ok , and remained steady !

Got me thinking if there is not maybe some sort of photo reaction going on inside eyes ?

Of course I could be talking complete 'balls ' here ( pardon the pun ! ) just wanted to throw a thought into the discussion .

Either way its gonna take a lot of time for a lot of people to accept ( or maybe not ) that they do in fact spin/wobble/loop. Hidden genes ? gotta love em !

When I said:Rock on guys breed em till the bottom falls out. That was being totally sarcastic. I really am disappointed in some of the responces I got. Don't get me wrong I am glad people are willing to participate. It seemed to me like there was a lot of pushing it off to the side for how Great spiders are. I am not saying they are not a great morph but I called it a nurological disorder and I got told that was an asumption and for someone to correct them if they were wrong. Maybe I am wrong but it sounds like not to many other people know what there talking about either. I know there is plenty of work going on with spiders right? I think Dr Del has some good questions there. I guess I just don't like the some spin some wobble, and they all do, wait only some do, but they are a great morph so just like em and be happy. I am not trying to be a jerk, I was just hoping for information pertaining to this "disorder" and less opinion.


Chuck

"who" is to say what is a desirable trait and what is a defect? who determines what is right/wrong to breed?
some purists think all morphs are "wrong" abnormalities on nature...



vaughn

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Originally Posted by kavmon

"who" is to say what is a desirable trait and what is a defect? who determines what is right/wrong to breed?
some purists think all morphs are "wrong" abnormalities on nature...



vaughn

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I don't see how anyone could consider this a "desirable trait", but I do agree that no one should be able to tell others if it is right or wrong to breed them. I personally won't breed them, but I would never try to force my opinions on others. If only some of them did this I would probably breed them. For me, if there was at least a pretty good chance to get a normal one I would probably breed them. That is why I finally broke down and decided to get into caramels. Even though kinking is a problem it seems like most of them come out healthy and kink free.

To Ginevive: If you watch your snake at night under a red light and you know what to look for you will probably see that he is a little off. It sounds like you got lucky though and probably got one with a very minimal case because if you saw one with a bad cease there would be no missing it.

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Originally Posted by pfan151

cease

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supposed to be *case*

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Originally Posted by Chuck

I was just hoping for information pertaining to this "disorder" and less opinion.


Chuck

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I do not know exactly what kind of information you were looking for, but to the best of my knowledge, their has been no medicale research or studies done on these snakes to determine what is actually happening with them. There have been many good points brought up in this thread, but most of those thoughts are either questions, or opinions formed by people who have done plenty of observation, but have no actual diagnosis of what is going on. I personally have not seen any ill effects in any of my Spiders from their condition, and choose to breed them for their beautiful pattern.

This has been a very thought provoking thread, and I have enjoyed reading about everyone's thoughts.

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Originally Posted by kavmon

"who" is to say what is a desirable trait and what is a defect? who determines what is right/wrong to breed?
vaughn

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:confused:
i kind of see your point. but for the most part. who determines what is right and wrong are all the other ball pythons that do not have this problem. we are not talking about all ball pythons here we are talking about breeding animals that cant hardly move. it would be like saying i breed dogs with two legs. they move relly funny but it is cute and in no way wrong to keep breeding them. you have to take into account quality of life of the animal. i dont care if it can eat/ sleep/ screw/ grow/ reproduce. it is still messed up and to say otherwise is putting the almighty dollor before these animals. wich are being brought in to the world by captive breeding. not wild breeding. in the wild a animal that had bad wobbles and could hardly move would be eaten by another animal quick. hince why there has only ever been one wc spider. the rest proabbly get eaten by preadtors as they are to busy being cute and wobbling to escape.

dont get me wrong i am not for not breeding spiders at all. i just believe that spiders that show any signs of wobbles should be kept as pets only and not breed :colbert:

but at the end of the day you are right it is a personal choice. if me/you anyone decides to breed 2 leged dogs that is a personal choice.

[QUOTE=MATT FISHER REPTILES]:confused:
i kind of see your point. but for the most part. who determines what is right and wrong are all the other ball pythons that do not have this problem. we are not talking about all ball pythons here we are talking about breeding animals that cant hardly move. "


imo, the "can't hardly move" is a little off base. my spiders slither just like the other balls. and in my case it isn't like spiders just sit there and stargaze or spin around 24/7. for the most part they do what most balls do. every now and then the head may tilt or they make shake a bit when in feeding mode. some of my normals shake around feeding time too.


some may look at hairless rats,cats, dogs the same way??

on ethics and morality, i think that can vary greatly. who is really right and why??

ie some people may have diabetes or heart conditions that are genetic. who has the right to say they shouldn't have kids? many people are born with what society would call
"not desirable traits" but they lead full and productive lives. they may look ,talk,walk different or they may not.

imo, no being or animal has more rights than the other. unless i'm hungry:D .

i know there is a big difference between snakes and humans. i think some of the ethics/morals could apply to both though.


vaughn

I am curious if the original imported spider had these shakes or not. I think that would narrow down whether this is a result of intensive inbreeding or if it is a deficiency that has always been part of the spider trait.

JonV

I think this is getting blown way out of proportion I myself have never seen my spider do anything out of the ordnary maybe I don't have the trained eye. But I do have a normal female that shake's a little.

I personally am facinated in the little genetic 'quirks' that comes with the spider, super cinny's and caramels. I'll try doing a little research at my college's library data base (I'm at an ag. college, with one of the nations better vet schools) to see if anything pops up, and if I can find my herp vet's e-mail address I'll ask him if he knows if there are any researches that are going on right now with the spider gene. If not, I'm sure it would make an awesome genetics research project to do when I'm in vet school.

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Originally Posted by Emilio

I think this is getting blown way out of proportion I myself have never seen my spider do anything out of the ordnary maybe I don't have the trained eye. But I do have a normal female that shake's a little.

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Than you have not seen a really bad example. Check out this link(registration is required) Page 1 and 8 have some pretty disturbing pics.
http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/fo...?TOPIC_ID=9716

Here I have found a good thread on this issue

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...52&page=1&pp=5



Chuck

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Originally Posted by pfan151

Than you have not seen a really bad example. Check out this link(registration is required) Page 1 and 8 have some pretty disturbing pics.
http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/fo...?TOPIC_ID=9716

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I wouldn't argue that there must be some pretty bad example's out there, but if someone that know's nothing of spider's read's this thread they might think a spider is a waste of time and money. I'll tell you this i have a pretty big collection and yes I only have one spider but it's probably my fav right now. I'm just trying to defend them a little I think they might be the most important(bad arse) mutation out there.:2cent:

I spied on mine last night as he roamed about his tub, and I really don't see him doing anything wrong. I did inquire to the seller when I bought him and was told that he exhibited none of this behavior, and i have never seen it and have had him for quite awhile now.

Its not necessarily shaking/spinning. It could be something as subtle as a slight head tilt like a dog that hears something. I've seen enough to believe that they are all at least slightly tweaked.

Hm.. ok :) I have never physically seen another Spider other than mine.. but he just acts normal and boing like any other ball python..
I think that if I were in the market for a Spider, and just starting out, I would not let this trait scare me into not buying one. Spiders are really one of the best-looking morphs out there in themselves in my opinion; not to even mention what they can help create in designer morphs. I hope that sellers of Spiders are honest about them and disclose the severity of their behaviors to buyers.. but then again I guess you could say that it is Buyer Beware.. I knew about the trait and asked before buying my guy.. I hope that in breeding him, his non-spinning is passed on to his offspring.

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v6...urnOnChair.flv

Video of Hepburn, my pet spinner. I was told she was 100% healthy, and got taken for $2200 IMHO.
I DO have Sam, who in my opinion is NOT a spinner. I've never seen him exhibit spinning.
IMO, I think that a slight head tilt means nothing. I've seen other species of snake show a tiny amount of headtilt. If you really look at any snake, looking for some defect, you'll see something you can point to and go "Aha!! See! It's got a defect." I think that spinning is more common in spiders than some breeders want to admit. But I also don't believe every spider has it.
I've seen a lot of snakes that their head shakes, especially when excited over feeding time. I don't consider that to be the spinning defect myself. A semi-permament head tilt would be considered a very mild case of spinning by me. Hepburn can LOOK almost normal, with a bad head tilt, while crawling flat along the floor. But if she lifts her head you see her go all wacky.
I have no plans to breed Hepburn, unless it's ONLY to see if she passes the spinning on. I wouldn't breed her to sell babies, nor would I place the babies produced by her as anything but pets, whether they spun or not. I don't know if she even would breed, since she's what I consider a severe spinner.
When I get a chance, I'll have to video Sam to use as a contrast, but the uploading video takes forever. And he tends to do the typical BP thing and lie there looking reproachful that I expect him to DO anything. Rather boring on video, since it looks like a still picture.
I like spiders, and both of mine are very calm lovely animals, Hepburn's spinning notwithstanding. She's a wonderful snake and GREAT for PR. You have NO idea how many folks that "hate snakes!!" that see her, get told she is disabled, and suddenly feel sorry for her, and see a snake as a pet animal, not a monster. I've been astounded by the reactions I've gotten to her. Some that wouldn't be in the same room with a live snake ended up petting her back while cooing "Awww.. the poor poor dear baby!"
All the while I was thinking I was ripped off, when in fact I apparently was handed the best ambassador to the world for snakekind. LOL.
Sorry so long winded. It's the wolfy.

I like your post :) I really do not see anything odd about my guy either. People might just say that I am an inexperienced dolt, but I do not believe that he has ever or will ever show any wobbling or spipnning behavior.
But personally I can relate to what you said about not wanting to breed your spinner. I could not breed such an animal.. normal life has to be stressful enough as it is for a snake like that. Breeding it would be like torture in my humble opinion. Maybe, just maybe, if it were a male that spun but not all the time, and he showed interest in breeding a female.. but to have eggs in her and spin like I have seen some do, would just not sit right with me ethically.
I plan on breeding Spiders with my male, out of normals, this year. If they spin or wobble or anything, I will fully disclose this to any buyers. I don't even care if I lost money about it; I am not in it for that. But since my guy shows no weird signs, I am breeding him full force.