Albino and Piebald

I've read that the piebald trait and albino trait are recessive. My question is, are they co-dom with each other. I saw a picture of one of Ralph Davis's albino pieds and I was wondering how that was acheived.

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Originally Posted by Jay_Bunny

I've read that the piebald trait and albino trait are recessive. My question is, are they co-dom with each other. I saw a picture of one of Ralph Davis's albino pieds and I was wondering how that was acheived.

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Recessive traits are always recessive.

The way you get something like an albino pied would be to breed an albino to a pied...and all the babies would be HET for each trait...or "double het(DH) for albino/pied."

Then you take two DH animals and breed them together....and pray to the morph gods (or Kevin @ NERD :P ) that you hit on the 1 in 16 odds of hatching out an albino pied.

Ok. Now I understand how that works. Thanks! :D

(Albino pieds are sooooo hot. They are unbelievable.)

okay to sort of hijack this thread, although its still related to pied :D .. and to get a cinnamon pied. You would have to breed a pied to a cinnamon or could you breed a het pied to a cinnamon and hopefully get a cinny pied out of the clutch (Im sure with much praying to the morph gods). am I correct on this or..?

I am interested to know about the cinnamon X pied crossing as well.

Oh and what will the hets of the albino x pied crossing look like. Since the albino lacks the trait for a normal and so does the pied, do they look normal, or am I totally wrong about the pied and albino lacking the normal trait?

Ok....to get a cinny-pied.... You'd need to breed a pied to a cinny and get some cinnies that are het for pied. Then breed one of those back to the pied (or another het pied) for a chance to hatch a cinny-pied.


As for the outcome of breeding DH albino pieds together...a clutch might include any of the following babies:

--Normals that are possible DH albino/pied (meaning it could be het for either or both)
--Albinos that are possible het pieds
--Pieds that are possible het albinos
--Albino Pieds

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Originally Posted by Jay_Bunny

Oh and what will the hets of the albino x pied crossing look like. Since the albino lacks the trait for a normal and so does the pied, do they look normal, or am I totally wrong about the pied and albino lacking the normal trait?

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After reading this again, I think I answered the wrong question in my previous post. So lemme try again...

Het albinos look normal.....and het pieds look normal.....therefore, DH albino/pieds will also look normal.

In order for an animal to NOT look normal (in this example) it must carry both pairs of the recessive gene in question. Each parent gives the baby ONE of the genes that make up that pair. If you breed an albino to a pied...the albino passes ONE albino gene and the pied passes a normal gene (for that slot...or allele)....and the pied passes ONE pied gene while the albino passes one normal gene for that slot.

Therefore, the babies look normal, but each carry one copy of the albino gene and one copy of the pied gene.

Is Cinnamon Co-Dom? I think it is but I'm not sure. If it is, then all offspring of a cinnamon X pied crossing would show cinnamon but be heterozygous for pied right? So as far as possible offspring for the het offspring x pied crossing it would be something like this?

- Cinnamon het for pied
- Normals het for both or either
- Pied het for cinnamon
- Cinnamon Pied

:confused:

Ok, so second generation would all look normal, but carry albino or pied, or both, correct? And then third generation, you have the potential of producing pieds het for albino, albinos het for pied, normals het for either or both, and albino pieds?

Cinnies are co-dom...so there is no such thing as "het for cinny."


A cinny x pied could potentially yield cinnies AND normal looking babies...but all of them would be het pied.

*smacks forehead* right!

So Cinnamon x Pied = 100% Het pied Cinnamon individuals

Then one of those 100% het pied Cinnamon indiviuals bred to a pied would give...

Cinnamons het for pied
Cinnamon Pieds
And 100% het pied Normals

okay that works for me. now, the rules to make a cinny pied would also apply to making a pastel pied cause the pastel is co-dom like the cinny, correct? so that would involve then two or three generations of breeding to acheive both goals right?

I would think the same rules apply for co-doms. In two-three years, I plan on trying to make some het pieds out of my babies. Then in another two to three years, I plan on trying for some pieds. :) I'm trying to get all this genetic stuff down, but since I have at least 2 years before even thinking about breeding Sadis (my normal female) to Xefaud (my het pied male) I think I have quite a bit of time to understand it all.

heh, yeah I've got two years ahead of me as well before I can breed the bp's Im getting. I've been studying as well. :D

heh, imagine feeling how I'm feeling... I've got a combo in mind that's going to take me at least 3 generations to get, if the odds gods are favoring me considerably more than average. That's not what bothers me... what bothers me is that I'm nearly POSITIVE someone's going to beat me to it and steal my thunder...

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Originally Posted by Jay_Bunny

*smacks forehead* right!

So Cinnamon x Pied = 100% Het pied Cinnamon individuals

Then one of those 100% het pied Cinnamon indiviuals bred to a pied would give...

Cinnamons het for pied
Cinnamon Pieds
And 100% het pied Normals

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You're very close. Not considering the odds, breeding a cinnamon het for pied to a pied could result in:
Pieds
Cinnamons that are 100% het for pied
Cinnamon pieds
Normal looking ball pythons that are het for pied

And yes, this would hold true for any co-dom that was het for a recessive morph bred to the same recessive morph.

I'm slowly getting the hang of this. I can't wait till my bio class goes over genetics. Its only one chapter at the end of the semester, but I still can't wait.

So, any chance anyone has any pics of some piebald combinations other than the lavender albino pied, cinnamon pied, and of course the normal pied?

The regular albino piebald has been created right?

If so, that proves that the albino and piebald mutations are at different gene locations. So the important thing to remember is that there are lots of different "normal" genes. In this case the pied parent has two copies of the normal for albino gene at the albino locus which is different than the piebald locus where it has two copies of the piebald mutant version of the piebald gene. Conversely, the albino parent has two copies of the normal for pied gene.

Also, don't forget that since the cinnamon is a visible het for the cinnamon mutation it has an unmatched pair of versions of the gene at the cinnamon location. It will split between giving the cinnamon and the normal for cinnamon version of that gene to it’s offspring about 50/50 over the long run.

I am trying to figure out this double recessive thing. Can anyone do a Punnet square for me that is 4x4 that is needed for the Dreamsicle(Albino +Piebald)

I don't think you can do a 4x4 punnet for double recessive. I will draw up a punnet for albino x piebald crossing during chem class (we are taking a small 15 min break right now) and I will post it after class.

Albino x piebald gets you 100% double-het's for both genes. They would all be normal-looking animals with both the albino and piebald genes. You would need to breed 2 such animals to get what you're looking for. Below is the square for that.

Capital letters represent NORMAL genes.

Albino = aaPP
Piebald = AApp

Double het for Albino and Piebald = AaPp


___| _AP_ | _Ap_ | _aP_ | _ap
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AP | AAPP | AAPp | AaPP | AaPp
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Ap | AAPp | AApp | AaPp | Aapp
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aP | AaPP | AaPp | aaPP | aaPp
---------------------------------
ap | AaPp | Aapp | aaPp | aapp

aapp will be your double recessive morph, showing both the albino and piebald mutation. You've got a 1/16 chance per EGG to get that designer morph.

Aw, you beat me to it. I did it during Chem class and am comparing it to yours. It matches exactly except for the letters I used. :D

So your chances are:
(per offspring)

6.25% chance that offspring will be Normal (no het)
12.5% chance that offspring will be Normal Het for Albino
12.5% chance that offspring will be Normal Het for Pied
25% chance that offspring will be Normal Double Het
6.25% chance that offspring will be Albino (no het)
12.5% chance that offspring will be Albino Het for Pied
6.25% chance that offspring will be Pied (no het)
12.5% chance that offspring will be Pied Het for Albino
6.25% chance that offspring will be Albino Pied

So you have very slim chances of producing non-het albinos, pieds, normals, and albino pieds.