humidity/temp problems?

Hi, i am using the analogue temperature and humidity gauges made by exo-terra. they have been in the plastic (temporary) enclosure for a few days now and it seems that the humidity is too high (%70) and the temperature is too low (73). i see that most people use digital measuring equipment so could this be the problem although i can't see they would be out that much.
my perminent viv should be here in the next week and im not sure what road to take.
i'm using kitchen roll as substrate and have an under tank heat pad, just a hide and a water bowl are in the tank at the mo.
how would i go about lowering the humidity and raising the temperature?

any advice would be much appreciated as im starting to worry :confused:
regards, Mike...

As far as the analog ones Mike they can be off quite a lot, sometimes as much as 10 degrees so I've heard. The digital really are best.

For your humidity you can put in a smaller water dish with less surface area and make sure it's on the cool side of the enclosure. Since it's a plastic enclosure you can add a lot more holes into the sides and lid. You can move the enclosure of a room with better air movement (as long as it's not in direct sunlight or drafts). Make sure that the snake cannot tip over it's water dish, that will only make the humidity issues worse.

As far as temps, can you turn up the UTH a bit more? Is the house very chilly?

Two hides, one per end, is usually best. :)

Here's an idea for you about exactly how much they can be off:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x...07-07_1741.jpg

Go with digi, then tweak from there :) That humidity guage stays between just about 50 (thats the lowest it ever said) and 65 at all times.

wow thats quite shocking! so basically i bought a load of cr*p. i want the best for my royal so what would be the best kit i could get (within reason) such as thermostat and digi gauges bearing in mind i will have a 24" x 15" x 15" viv soon. and can a thermostat work with the habistat heat pads?
any other tips greatly appreciated :)

kind regards, Mike...

Hi Mike,


I managed to get a thermometer on ebay that shows humidity and in and out temps all the time as well as a clock for about £12 shipped.

Thermomstat wise we don't have the same choice they do in America for the most part.

Though today I did find out it is possible to get the johnson controls a-419 but it costs £78 - which is more expensive than we can get proportional thermostats (normally £55 - £69). Though ebay has them even cheaper.

Brands to check out online would be habistat, microclimate ( seem to have cool safety features) or lucky reptile (the only digital one).

I have only ever used habistats and have had a couple fail on me but this is over a period of ten years or so.

I like the idea of the microclimate safety features but like habistats their temperature range is small and your setup would have to be designed with that in mind.

Lucky reptile looked quite good as well but I couldn't find an all singing all dancing model but they would definately be worth considering.

The a-419 has a great reputation for reliability on these boards but (as of this morning) ther aren't any actually in europe at the moment so there would be a possible 5 week delivery time and they are still on/off, but personal recomendations count for a lot so I'd also consider them.

Helix did suggest they would be releasing a line of reptile thermostats in europe in the latter half of the year but they haven't emailed to say they have done so yet.

Any of the thermostats will work fine with a habistat mat but I found those matts couldn't get hot enough to be effective as a sole heating solution. But I do have a cold house so if your room was heated to 82f they might be able to do it ok.

All mine are quite old so that may be the reason for that though - plug it into the wall unregulated and measure what temperature it gets too as a test. Not while it's anywhere near an animal naturally.:P

I did just import some flexwatt (prewired and rated at 240v) direct from the manufacturer and that stuff rocks.


dr del

A thermostat will work with any heating device that plugs into an electrical outlet. You just place the probe wherever it gets hottest and what they then do is manage the electrical output to the heating device so that it maintains a specific preset temperature for you.

fascinating stuff dr del. its a lot to take into account so i'll sift through ebay and see what crops up. the heat pad i have (when in the mains) is not consistant heat over the area of the pad and feels just warm to the touch so around 25 - 30 degrees C. its my sisters old one and may be worth investing in a new one.
should the temp of the viv be measured about an inch off the ground and how should the cool spot be regulated, i would guess with another heat pad and dual thermostat?
thankyou so much for everyones help so far :)

regards, Mike...

Hi,


Yeah I've found that as they age they can develop "hot spots" - though generally nothing dangerous like the kind hot rocks can have.

They never seem to give the heating performance of the american stuff though - mine only ever seemed capable of raising the ambient air temp by about 10 degrees c approximately. Whereas flexwatt can hit 115f no problems sitting in my living room when the ambients are 76. It's possible the newer matts have a better performance though as all of mine are old - the store you buy them from should have some idea what they can do and advise you on this hopefully.

Yeah if you needed one for the cool side too (I know I do :) ) then either two seperate thermostats, a dual channel one or possibly even running the cool end heatmat off the same thermostat as the hot end but putting it through a dimmer would work. The last one take a bit more fiddling to make it work though.

The temperatures should be taken in side the hides at both hot and cold end as thats where the snake will actually spend almost all of its time and also under the substrate at the hot end when first setting it up to make sure that that area (which the snake can burrow down to etc) does not have to get to dangerous temps to get the hot end hide temp correct. Try and arrange the depth/type of substrate so that the under substrate temp is arround 95 when the in hide temp is 92-94.

This means the animal has access to the full temperature range it needs while never being exposed to temps high enough to cause burns or anything.

Its also a good idea to try and design everything so that the thermostat probe is outside of the actual enclosure so that the snake itself cannot interfere by lying on it, moving it or p'ing on it - if you feed live this also stops any prey items from gnawing on it as the little boogers seem to know which is the most expensive and important peice of kit to chew. :P

Any other q's just ask away - and if you find a really good perice of kit over here then feel free to tell us too.:)


dr del

ok thanks, i had a gander on ebay this morning and ended up spending as usual...
i opted for a new habistat 11" x 17" heat mat, habistat day/night dimmer thermostat, habistat night eye day/night switch and an all in one hygrometer and thermometer with min and max temps. and of course at the cheapest prices on ebay.
i figured i could keep him happy using the night/day switch by having the light sensor on the windowsill behind the curtain. i guess i'll have to wait and see if the cool spots warm enough ;) when its ready, that way i can judge whether i need another mat and thermostat.

as you mentioned about having the thermostat probe outside the viv, do you mean something like drilling a hole about an inch off the floor, in the side, big enough for the end of the probe and sealing it in place? and where should i position the hygrometer/thermometer probe???

kind regards, Mike...

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWN:IT&ih=018

Hi,


Nice looking thermometer.:)

Now for the slightly less fun news.:P

Unless your breeding the snakes you want to keep the night and day temps the same. I always just used a couple of cheap plug in timers to control the lights and night time drops in the breeding season as we have a different day/ night cycle than ghana. That may just have been me being economical though so I would get a second opinion.:D

I hadn't realised you were using a wooden viviarium which changes the advice slightly.

You really don't have any choice but to put the probe inside the tank at that point but there are a few ways of minimising the snakes impact on it.

I had tacked mine onto the wall of the viv with cable tacks to stop the snake moving it much and used one to bend the probe outwards from the wall so it hovers a couple of millimeters above the substrate ( I use newspaper) just inside the hot end hide and had cut a hole into the inside of the hide (peices of cork siliconed together) so it was inside but the snake couldnt lie on it.

Of course I then decided to use plastic boxes with holes in the top so at the moment it merely waves in the air behind it till I decide which I prefer and redesign if necesary.

These are just to give you some ideas as obviously you know your setup best.:D

The thermometer probe your going to want to keep mobile for a little while till you have finished checking everything out but you can use velcro stips siliconed onto the back of the base unit and slightly elevated off the substrate of the cool end ( to try and avoid getting it p'd on) if you like.

I have held it in place with bluetack once or twice but it always ended up falling off.


dr del

ok i'm getting there now...
i think what i will do is wait for the thermostat to come, get the new wooden viv set up with the other hide, coco husk chunks, heat mat and other bits and pieces and maybe another one of those thermometers so i can measure the temps easier and then see if i need another mat and thermostat for the cool end. good or bad idea???
Mike...

Hi,


There is one thing I don't think we've covered - heat mats shouldn't be allowed to come into contact with water really if you can possibly avoid it. Or be flooded with snake p, they should be quite well sealed but I'd ask the manufacturer for their opinion.

It might be an idea to get a hold of some lino or ceramic tiles ( thin ones though) to lay over the top of the mats and then silicone all round to make it waterproof.

I can't give you any practical advice on this one though as all my wooden vivs have ceramic heaters or bulb heaters.:(


dr del

i have already received the new heat mat and i was thinking maybe i could just silicone all around where the wire enters the mat at the connecting block. that way the wire and mat would be as "one". the mat is covered in plastic laminate and as long as theres no holes or splits (which i dont think there is) it should prevent water getting in.
sounds ok to me... how about you? :confused:

Hi,


Well its mostly the plastic edges I worry about - I would email the makers and ask but most of the instructions say not to let it get immersed in water or wet.

For the cost of lino or a tile I wouldn't take a risk. But take the makers recomendations over mine.


dr del

I have sent an email direct to habistat so will just need to be patient for a reply.
I received the thermostat, had a flick through the instructions and noticed that it says to have a minimum of 40 watts running through it and the new heat mat (17 x 11) is only 20 watts. is this going to be ok :confused:
regards, Mike...

Hi,

I honestly don't know on the wattage question. I never noticed that back in the day and haven't bought a new one in years.:(

I've had a look but all mine are running on heavier wattage stuff and even when I was running a dimmer on a bulb I always chose high wattage bulbs because they lasted longer.

Might be worth a second email just to be safe. If you find the email of the thermostat makers would you mind posting it up for me as well? I have some questions and could never find their home site.


dr del

Hi dr del, if you contact peter foulsham direct at habistat he is more than happy to help; pfoulsham@eurorep.co.uk

i've had a reply about sealing the mat now and he said silicone sealant will do the job fine and he is confident about the water resistance of the edges of the mat too as they are double laminated.

i'll send another email now...

I now have the new 24" x 15" x 15" wooden viv set up, i got two new hides (again) as the half logs i got were way too big for him at the moment so i'll save them for when he's big! the 11" x 17" heat mat is at the back left with corner shelf above and the water bowl is on the cool side (right) as my humidity is still too high at around 65%. obviousely i can keep my warm side in check at 90-92 but i cant regulate the cool side and that sits at around 72-75 which is too low.

does anyone know/have any ideas what i can do about the high humidity and bringing up the temp on the cool side?

heres a pic of the nearly finished and furnished vivarium,
kind regards, Mike...

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a3...e/IMG_6373.jpg

Hi,


You could possibly try a second heatmat for the cool side?

It depends how you control the first one how you would regulate it but obviously it needs regulated the same as the first one.

If you have a thermostat it might be possible to control the second heatmat through a dimmer attatched to it.


dr del

Hi Dr Del,
i currently have a habistat day/night dimming thermostat but not using the day/night function and works very nicely. it buzzes when at steady temp, i guess thats normal as its providing a constant power feed.
i have been thinking about installing an exo-terra glow lamp with a heat glo bulb by cutting a big hole in the top of the viv, stapling chicken wire type mesh to stop the snake from getting to the bulb and having the lamp pointing straight down for the hot end.
any ideas what mesh to use as i would have thought wire would get hot and could burn him and plastic mest could go bendy and melt?
im not sure what size lamp would be best as i dont want a huge great thing! maybe the medium sized 8.5" one but for my idea i would need the bulb to be completely concealed within the housing of the lamp so it will sit flush with the top of the viv.
i was thinking along the lines of a bulb rather than ceramic bulb as you need one of those wire lamps and they're a bit of an eyesaw. also, where the room he's kept is humid and cold anyway, it should raise the ambient temperature well and lower the humidity to propper levels.

please let me know what you think and any advice/corrections are very welcome.
regards, Mike...

Hi,


Yes the buzzing is normal - though your ears must be waaaay better than mine as I had to hold mine up to my ear to hear it (Granpa sez what? :P ).

I'm not sure what to advise on the lamp really as I put all of mine actually inside the viv's.

As long as you put a decent gap between the element and the mesh it shouldn't really be a problem - especially with a bulb as opposed to a ceramic element.

Ceramics really become more of a problem with on/off or pulse thermostats as well - the ceramic elements I use can get up to a surface temp of 700f if unregulated so I always use them on pulse at least and dimming if I can. In the viviarium using the pulse proportional thermostat the heat has begun to damage the roof of the viv where the hot air rises past the edge of the heat reflector so they definately need carefull watching. The mesh however is a good couple of inches past from that spot and, while it's annoying the ****ens out of me, it isn't actually posing any risk to the snake at the moment.

I also learned those little plastic corner blocks you buy at b&q are fine for holding gaurds on with bulbs but have a tendency to melt and distort with ceramics - even on dimming t/stats. You can see them in some of the following pics of the interior mounted bulbs and ceramics and I'm slowly changing everything over to the ceramic blocks but they are a devil to find and the shop never seems to have more than 2 by the time I get there.:mad:

Here are the pics showing the gaps I leave between bulb and mesh;

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...ramicgaurd.JPG

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...rtankgaurd.JPG

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...urdfixings.JPG

Hope some of this can be of use to you.



dr del

thanks again for such a great response.
i have just ordered the smallest (5.5") exo terra glow light, a 75watt heat glo bulb and a pulse proportional habistat thermostat to use on the heat mat which means i can use the dimming one for the lamp. should do the trick nicely.
where my viv is small, i think i will cut a great big hole (about 5") in the top of the viv and mount the lip of the dome to the edge of the hole.
i think i'll get one of those zoo med domed cages to create a safe gap between bulb and snake but will think of other possibilities and choose the best one. will keep you posted on that when it all arrives.
kind regards, Mike...