HUGE Price difference between 8Ball and Henry Piorun

Ok...
I want another snakey...
So was doing a little shopping and noticed that on Adam Wysocki's 8Ball Website (http://www.8ballpythons.com/allavailable.htm) a male Albino BP is only $100 USD BUT on Henry Piorun's Website (http://www.a1pythons.com/April4_2007a.html) his male Albino's are $1800 CND (I think it's CND just cause he's in Canada but it could be USD)

But anyway, why is there such a HUGE difference??? :confuzd:
Is it because the size (weight) of the snake???

Becuase the Albino on Adam's site is a het. and not a true albino.

Ok... so what is a het???
Is it like breeding and Albino with a Normal or something like that??

Yes. A Het carries the genes that can make the albino. The snake looks normal enough; however when paired with another het. albino can possibly make albinos.

There is all sorts of info on the genteics and breeding forums about hets.



http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...&highlight=het

Hope this helps

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Originally Posted by ivylea77

Yes. A Het carries the genes that can make the albino. The snake looks normal enough; however when paired with another het. albino can possibly make albinos.

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I am lost for words... Ill have to do some reading on this thing...
:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

Thanks!

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Originally Posted by Jonny2184

I am lost for words... Ill have to do some reading on this thing...
:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

Thanks!

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Basically for a recessive trait (such as albino, hypo, pied, etc) you need two copies of the gene for the trait to be visual. Lets call the normal gene "A", and the albino gene "a". So an albino would have two copies of "a": aa. This would look albino. A normal snake would have at least one copy of the normal gene "A". Now it could also have either another normal copy or an albino copy. So it would either be AA or Aa. If it is Aa; that is known as heterozygous; meaning that it carries the gene even though it's not visual.

When two snakes breed, they each give a copy of a gene. So an albino (aa) bred to a normal (AA) will give all heterozygous (Aa) as each parent contributed one of each. However if you bred two heterozygous (Aa) together then each parent will give one of either copy. So if each parent gives a copy of the "a" gene then you will get albino. It is possible for each parent to give an "A" gene resulting in "AA"; or a snake that IS NOT carrying the albino gene. If one parent gives A and the other gives "a" then that will mean more heterozygous snakes.

This is where you hear the term 66% het coming from. There are four possible combinations from het parents: AA, Aa, Aa, and aa. aa is obvious to tell its genes because it's albino. However the other three all loook the same even though two have the same genes and the other does not. You cannot tell this just by looking at it; so from a statistical stand point, there is a 2 out of 3 chance (66%) that it will be carrying the albino gene.

Hopefully this helps. Now this is only for recessive genes; dominant genes (pastel, spider, mojave, etc) are different as you only need one copy for it to be expressed. If you have two dominant genes then you sometimes get a super form (super pastel, lucey, super cinnamon, etc) which means it has two copies of the dominant gene. If there is a super form then it is known as co-dominant.

Hopefully this makes some sense. A basic understanding of genetics and modes of inheritance is a must for someone working with morphs in reptiles; especially if you want to breed. You want to know whats going to be coming out of the egg when you breed.

More info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mendelian_inheritance

>D oh how i wish adam might sell an albino male for 100$

Tks Matt...

I think I'm starting to understand...

8Ball Pythons are only offering the snake that has the GENES to breed the Pied Ball or the Albinio... and that is why they are cheaper....
Wow... it can be very confusing eh!
But I'm getting the hang of it...

Thanks a bunch!!!! :rockon:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jonny2184

Tks Matt...

I think I'm starting to understand...

8Ball Pythons are only offering the snake that has the GENES to breed the Pied Ball or the Albinio... and that is why they are cheaper....
Wow... it can be very confusing eh!
But I'm getting the hang of it...

Thanks a bunch!!!! :rockon:

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You can buy albinos from Adam - you just have to contact him directly for pricing.

So a 66% Het would be cheaper then a 100% Het because it's only 66% and the chances are that much lower.
I think I get it...
I've read ur post like eight times trying to drill this into my head. lol

Thanks again!

here's a great guide..

http://www.ballpythons.ca/genetics.html

http://www.ballpythons.ca/what_get/recessive.html

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Originally Posted by nathanledet

here's a great guide..

http://www.ballpythons.ca/genetics.html

http://www.ballpythons.ca/what_get/recessive.html

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Yeah I was reading his site actually... he kinda confused me a little because of all the new words I have never heard of! lol

I just have to read it over and over and I might catch on...

Cheers! and I also like how he gives you a graphic of the snakes and shows you the outcome of it... pretty cool!

With a 100% het you are guaranteed that the animal has the gene, assuming you purchase from a reputable source. A 66% het does not necessarily have the gene but there is a 66% chance that it does have that.

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Originally Posted by shhhli

oh how i wish adam might sell an albino male for 100$

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:8:

me too.

;)

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Originally Posted by Jonny2184

So a 66% Het would be cheaper then a 100% Het because it's only 66% and the chances are that much lower.
I think I get it...
I've read ur post like eight times trying to drill this into my head. lol

Thanks again!

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Right; a 66% het is cheaper because it's a gamble; literally. Whereas a 100% het is a sure thing. Keep in mind that a lot of genetics is chance; yes there are odds, but they are just that: odds. Even if you have two 100% het parents you are not guaranteed to produce the visual that you want. Just keep that in mind. I've seen so many first time breeders get mad because they got none or only 1 homozygous animal from a het breeding.

just a note: henry has had problems with mites for years. so if you do purchase from him, be sure to pre-treat the enclosure with Provent-A-Mite (P.A.M.) so the mites don't spread to the rest of your collection.

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Originally Posted by shhhli

>D oh how i wish adam might sell an albino male for 100$

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Talk to MKR about cheap stuff :gj: and by cheap, i mean cheap....

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Originally Posted by nathanledet

Talk to MKR about cheap stuff :gj: and by cheap, i mean cheap....

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hahaha oh that made me laugh
i wouldn't throw :2cent: their way

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Originally Posted by recycling goddess

just a note: henry has had problems with mites for years. so if you do purchase from him, be sure to pre-treat the enclosure with Provent-A-Mite (P.A.M.) so the mites don't spread to the rest of your collection.

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When was the last time you purchased from Henry? I am just curious because I have bought 1.1 pastels, 1.1 spiders, 0.1 ghost, 0.2 wild type ball pythons and 0.1 Borneo short tail python from Henry and I have never had a mite. I have also handled a number of his other animals and I have never seen or felt a mite on them. I am just wondering if it was a complete stroke of luck or if your encounter was awhile ago. Thanks :)

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Originally Posted by mandy4682

I am just wondering if it was a complete stroke of luck or if your encounter was awhile ago. Thanks :)

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What's so lucky about mites:eek: :P

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Originally Posted by ivylea77

What's so lucky about mites:eek: :P

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The luck would be on my end :D The stroke of luck I was referring too was the fact that I don't have mites :)

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Originally Posted by shhhli

>D oh how i wish adam might sell an albino male for 100$

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nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo kidding. holy crap. haha i checked the site without reading anymore posts, and i ACTUALLY slapped myself for thinking there was a $100 albino. haha

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Originally Posted by zx92027xz

nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo kidding. holy crap. haha i checked the site without reading anymore posts, and i ACTUALLY slapped myself for thinking there was a $100 albino. haha

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That what I was thinking too until I clicked it and saw they were Het... lol

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Originally Posted by Jonny2184

That what I was thinking too until I clicked it and saw they were Het... lol

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I guess I shouldnt say Het... I should say Albino... I think!

I'm still a little confused as u can see! lol

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Originally Posted by Jonny2184

I guess I shouldnt say Het... I should say Albino... I think!

I'm still a little confused as u can see! lol

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no that is correct :)
or you could say Albino Hets

I think the reason for it being a bit mis-leading is because the first thing you see is a picture of an albino, with the text "Albino" right underneath it, and then your eye is guided straight to the price. Most people don't take the time to read the description or the bold yellow text that explains that it's a het, not a visual morph.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jonny2184

I guess I shouldnt say Het... I should say Albino... I think!

I'm still a little confused as u can see! lol

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No you got it right; albino would mean just that; it's an albino. Het means it carries one copy of the normal or "wild-type" gene and one copy of the albio gene.

So would that mean all Albino snakes (the ones that are actually visually albino) are -


100% Het Albino

I think this basically takes a lot of practice, and study lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jonny2184

So would that mean all Albino snakes (the ones that are actually visually albino) are -


100% Het Albino

I think this basically takes a lot of practice, and study lol

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they are not het albino, they are homozygous,

Het - carries the trait
Homo - shows the trait

I think your thought is "het means they carry the gene"...technically speaking, homozygous does carry the gene...but they show it, therefore, they're homozygous.

So if you took a Normal BP and a homozygous Albino or Pied or whatever and you got ur babies you would have Het Albino and they would be 100% het Albino

but if you took a Het Albino and a Normal BP you would have 66% Het Albino

Sorry if I bug you will all my questions! I just want to figure this out! lol
CHEERS!

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Originally Posted by nathanledet

they are not het albino, they are homozygous,

Het - carries the trait
Homo - shows the trait

I think your thought is "het means they carry the gene"...technically speaking, homozygous does carry the gene...but they show it, therefore, they're homozygous.

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Sort of, Nate...but not quite accurate.

Het is short for "heterozygous"....which, in layman's simple terms means the animal is carrying ONE copy of a particular pair of genes.

Homozygous means it is carrying BOTH copies of that pair of genes.

Some morphs will show a visual trait, but still not be homozygous...such as a spider or pastel.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jonny2184

So if you took a Normal BP and a homozygous Albino or Pied or whatever and you got ur babies you would have Het Albino and they would be 100% het Albino

but if you took a Het Albino and a Normal BP you would have 66% Het Albino

Sorry if I bug you will all my questions! I just want to figure this out! lol
CHEERS!

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You're very close. :D

Yes....a normal BP x a homozygous Albino would yield babies that were all 100% het albino.

A het albino x a normal will yield 50% hets....meaning each baby stands a 50/50 chance that it carries that albino gene.

A het albino x a het albino may give you some albino babies...and each normal baby has a 66% chance of being het.

So a heterozygous snake could possibly show the morph but highly unlikly?

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Originally Posted by JLC

You're very close. :D

Yes....a normal BP x a homozygous Albino would yield babies that were all 100% het albino.

A het albino x a normal will yield 50% hets....meaning each baby stands a 50/50 chance that it carries that albino gene.

A het albino x a het albino may give you some albino babies...and each normal baby has a 66% chance of being het.

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AH I was close eh! Dammit! I think I do understand!
This is kinda fun... I could get into the genetics things....

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Originally Posted by Jonny2184

So a heterozygous snake could possibly show the morph but highly unlikly?

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Depends entirely on the morph in question. Different morphs work differently. The ones we've been talking about here (albino or pied) are Simple Recessive morphs....which means that the animals must have both copies of a pair of genes in order to display the visual trait.

The ones I mentioned...spiders and pastels....are examples of Dominant or Co-Dominant morphs. These morphs only need one copy of the gene pair in order to show their looks. So....a spider x normal has a good chance of yielding spider babies in the first generation. Any other "normals" in the clutch are totally normal and not considered "het" in any way because if they had inherited the spider gene, they would look like spiders already.

Thank you for the correction Judy ;)

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Originally Posted by JLC

Depends entirely on the morph in question. Different morphs work differently. The ones we've been talking about here (albino or pied) are Simple Recessive morphs....which means that the animals must have both copies of a pair of genes in order to display the visual trait.

The ones I mentioned...spiders and pastels....are examples of Dominant or Co-Dominant morphs. These morphs only need one copy of the gene pair in order to show their looks. So....a spider x normal has a good chance of yielding spider babies in the first generation. Any other "normals" in the clutch are totally normal and not considered "het" in any way because if they had inherited the spider gene, they would look like spiders already.

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I was hoping to stay away from the codominant and completely dominant, until I got the recessive down packed... lol

Isn't a spider completely dominant if that's the case?
Since it only needs one gene to shows it's morph?

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Originally Posted by Jonny2184

I was hoping to stay away from the codominant and completely dominant, until I got the recessive down packed... lol

Isn't a spider completely dominant if that's the case?
Since it only needs one gene to shows it's morph?

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The dominants start to get a bit confusing because they can also act differently between different morphs, and people refer to this phenomenon with different names: Dominant, Complete Dominant, Incomplete Dominant, and Co-Dominant. ALL of these only require a single gene (het) to show a visual morph trait.

For simplicity's sake....let's just say that a "Dominant" morph looks the same whether it the animal is "het" or "homo" for that trait.

And "Co-Dominant" means that the animal displays one morph type while carrying a single gene, and an entirely different look when both genes are paired together.

Spiders and pinstripes could be considered "Dominant".....pastels, mojaves, and many others can be considered "Co-Dom."

That's a very simple overview of what can be very complex when studied in depth.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jonny2184

So a heterozygous snake could possibly show the morph but highly unlikly?

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Not really; a heterozygous only carrys the gene but doesn't express it. Now there are instances where it might somewhat show through. I'm more familiar with corn genetics; but het bloodred frequently have certain markings that give them away; but even that isn't 100%

Now back to the dominant morphs; in your comment you could technically say that a pastel was het for super-pastel; and in that case you could see the het. But that's not really the way you'd word it with regards to pastel and other dominant morphs.

You're doing a very good job of picking this up. Keep at it; it'll all come together.