prices at daytona.

now i am not going to ask what they will be in the next week or year as those threads start wars. i am just couerious to what the average is people saw on bp's. i herd they sunk to a new all time low and just wanted to confirm that with what the bp.net crew saw.

Sure...it's typical...and expected.

Albinos, for example were around $800-1,200...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nathanledet

Sure...it's typical...and expected.

Albinos, for example were around $800-1,200...

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I am actually surprised they stayed that high. I had seen them on KS for around $900 for several months...figured they would have hit $700ish by time the show hit.

from a few frinds that flew down that they say albinos going for 650- all the way to 500 for new hatchlings. when i herd that my jaw hit the floor. i have a frind that got a het carmel female for 600. hell if they take another hit at daytona next year like they did this year there will be verry few super high priced balls any more. except for combos. but take a look at yellow bellys for instance. why would any one spend 3k on a yellow belly when you can buy a pair of yearling het ivoryes for 500 then all you have to do is wait two yeas and boom you can make your own for 500 in snakes and 50 in rats. and 30 in eletric.

for some reason there are a lot of people that seem to be getting out of the balls. from what i herd there were people at the show that if you had real cash in you hand said make me an offer. i herd of one high contrast albino going for 500 out the door.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MATT FISHER REPTILES

from a few frinds that flew down that they say albinos going for 650- all the way to 500 for new hatchlings. when i herd that my jaw hit the floor. i have a frind that got a het carmel female for 600. hell if they take another hit at daytona next year like they did this year there will be verry few super high priced balls any more. except for combos. but take a look at yellow bellys for instance. why would any one spend 3k on a yellow belly when you can buy a pair of yearling het ivoryes for 500 then all you have to do is wait two yeas and boom you can make your own for 500 in snakes and 50 in rats. and 30 in eletric.

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It's Daytona...just because some random dude at a table at that show sells an albino for 650 or 500 doesn't mean that's the "new price" on albinos, lol. Is that all it takes to devalue them in your mind?

The cash and carry price in Daytona is not an accurate reflection of the market as a whole. And you're a fool if you think that just because someone sells one down there for XXX.XX, you also have to do the same from that point on.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MATT FISHER REPTILES

for some reason there are a lot of people that seem to be getting out of the balls. from what i herd there were people at the show that if you had real cash in you hand said make me an offer. i herd of one high contrast albino going for 500 out the door.

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That's good news to me. I can't wait for the day when the only sellers left in the market are the ones that are truly passionate about ball pythons, as opposed to the guys who aren't interested anymore now that they can't fetch a thousand bucks for a co-dominant morph...news flash...albinos aren't going to be $500 anytime soon...sorry...

Brad is right. Daytona always has some really LOW prices, but competition doesn't get much stiffer than that. Don't go by Daytona prices as the norm. Also quality and reputations vary tremendously as do prices. I bought 3 snakes there this year because I knew that Daytona is a buyers market, but I wouldn't count on prices staying that low. When you have 100's of tables to choose from things get interesting. :cool:

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

And you're a fool if you think that just because someone sells one down there for XXX.XX, .

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is that why only 1 day after the show. prices on fauana and kingsnake have fallen greatly because of the daytona prices. say what you want daytona prices set the tone for all others

Prices in Daytona were so random, good luck using that as a guide. If your going to use those prices as the norm, you might as well just roll a die and let that choose how much to sell a snake for.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MATT FISHER REPTILES

is that why only 1 day after the show. prices on fauana and kingsnake have fallen greatly because of the daytona prices. say what you want daytona prices set the tone for all others

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KS & Fauna are just little specks in the selling world of reptiles. Also Daytona's reptile show... is just that, a show. There is no one there saying to the people who set up there "you have to lower your prices because this is Daytona". If people want to get out of the snake world, let them. In the end it will be the one's who are truly passionate in what they do. Also it seems like all of this is just what you "heard". I know when I hear something from someone I don't assume that to always be true or the whole case. I like to make sure I know all the facts before jumping in without any cover or backup.

From all the prices I saw myself at the show, the prices were about the norm for ball python morphs. There were some real bargains, it's Daytona, and there's always some really great prices on something.
I've been pricing mojaves online for the last two months. The prices in Daytona were almost identical. I had to relaly search to find the bargain that I did.
Recessives especially seemed to be higher than I expected, but of course they WERE lower than last year. That's normal.
Give it a week or so after Daytona and compare pricing. I don't think it affects the market much that there are some bargains found.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MATT FISHER REPTILES

now i am not going to ask what they will be in the next week or year as those threads start wars. i am just couerious to what the average is people saw on bp's. i herd they sunk to a new all time low and just wanted to confirm that with what the bp.net crew saw.

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for a boa guy, you sure are interested in ball prices!!

some may only get 600-700 for an albino, some with better marketing and business and service may get 1000:D



vaughn

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MATT FISHER REPTILES

is that why only 1 day after the show. prices on fauana and kingsnake have fallen greatly because of the daytona prices. say what you want daytona prices set the tone for all others

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Fauna and Kingsnake are not the Barometer for the ball market. You have every thing from NERD to "Jimmy's" Fauna and KS are sale it cheap Sale it Fast get it gone sites. The prices have fallen because the :taz: on there are scared that now they have competition in their price range from some reputable people so they go lower than some can. A 500.00 albino on KS sure hell MKR was selling mojaves and lessers for 800 two years ago..Look where they ended up. forget KS and Fauna when it comes to pricing. For the most part is a flea-market.

Here ya go prime example

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...33&postcount=6

I got a great looking male lesser from a very big breeder for $750 and a male albino for $550. I don't remeber who I got the albino from without looking at the receipt. The albino was a sunday afternoon at 4:30 deal that I really had to hunt for. I got turned down by a lot of breeders before one accepted my offer. I don't think anyone there was getting $1000 for an albino. At most tables the listed price seemed to be between $700-$950 on albinos. Late in the day on sunday are when most of the really low prices start popping up, but I was able to get the lesser on saturday morning at about 11:00. To be honest I was shocked when I asked what he would do on a male lesser was and he told me $750. I did not even have to make an offer. I figured I would be able to get a male lesser for about $800, but I thought I would have to wait until sunday afternoon. Now I really don't think these prices are the new market price(at least not the albino price). I think everything in daytona is always a little cheaper than usual. I think that's the point of the show, to see everything and to be able to get better deals on things than you normally would. I do agree with others that there seemed to be less people this year selling BP's which is a good thing IMO. I thought the amount of balls and boas seemed to be pretty equal.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Fauna and Kingsnake are not the Barometer for the ball market. You have every thing from NERD to "Jimmy's" Fauna and KS are sale it cheap Sale it Fast get it gone sites. The prices have fallen because the :taz: on there are scared that now they have competition in their price range from some reputable people so they go lower than some can.

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I disagree somewhat...sure KS (and Daytona) don't set the price but it is an indicator of the direction and value the market (in general) is placing on certain morphs.

Albinos before Daytona were $900 (cheap) to $1500ish (reputable breeder/quality)...now they are $650 (cheap) to $1000ish (quality) - so why the drop? It becuase the market is saying that albinos aren't worth as much regardless of what the quality is. Sure you pay more for quality but you will pay less for that quality since Daytona.

Yes, there are lots of reasons behind this, # in the market, # breeders, ease of aquiring, peoples view of their value etc....but Daytona is where the first real indicator (and then KS) of what the market will bear for a particular animal. It is a similar reason why Pieds have held to such a high retail...they are still valued by collectors (even though they have been around almost as long as Albinos)

You also have to consider the volume done via KS and Fauna before you say they don't matter.

Just my take

The ball python market is maturing and honestly I'm to the point where I no longer search for the best deal. I want the best animal and sure I'll haggle the price a little, but in the end I'll end up paying hundreds if not thousand more than the "average" example at the table next door.

I think a LOT of ball python hobbiest and breeders are coming to this point. Single examples of prices anywhere mean nothing. If you average them all together you'll get a feel of where a project is priced at.

Justin

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lord jackel

I disagree somewhat...sure KS (and Daytona) don't set the price but it is an indicator of the direction and value the market (in general) is placing on certain morphs.

Albinos before Daytona were $900 (cheap) to $1500ish (reputable breeder/quality)...now they are $650 (cheap) to $1000ish (quality) - so why the drop? It becuase the market is saying that albinos aren't worth as much regardless of what the quality is. Sure you pay more for quality but you will pay less for that quality since Daytona.

Yes, there are lots of reasons behind this, # in the market, # breeders, ease of aquiring, peoples view of their value etc....but Daytona is where the first real indicator (and then KS) of what the market will bear for a particular animal. It is a similar reason why Pieds have held to such a high retail...they are still valued by collectors (even though they have been around almost as long as Albinos)

You also have to consider the volume done via KS and Fauna before you say they don't matter.

Just my take

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Agreed however if you were to look at the volume of snakes NERD, RDR, VPI, even 8ball, EBN and so on sell there they are a drop in the bucket of guys like me and others that are doing it as a hobby. So if some of the largest producers in the world don't even make up 25% of the sales or adds on KS or Fauna. Yet I'd be willing to bet they sell more balls than KS and Fauna combined every year. I still think basing price expectancy based KS and Fauna is partly what is helping drive the prices down.

As for expos they are three day free-for-alls the big guys sometimes lower their prices to establish a new customer in hopes of a return sale some don't care.Try and Jew Collete Sutherland down on her prices and see how far you get.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Agreed however if you were to look at the volume of snakes NERD, RDR, VPI, even 8ball, EBN and so on sell there they are a drop in the bucket of guys like me and others that are doing it as a hobby. So if some of the largest producers in the world don't even make up 25% of the sales or adds on KS or Fauna. Yet I'd be willing to bet they sell more balls than KS and Fauna combined every year. I still think basing price expectancy based KS and Fauna is partly what is helping drive the prices down.

As for expos they are three day free-for-alls the big guys sometimes lower their prices to establish a new customer in hopes of a return sale some don't care.Try and Jew Collete Sutherland down on her prices and see how far you get.

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Agreed...if true. It would be interesting to know how much of the annual BP volume is done via KS and Fauna. As for shows I agree they are a free for all...but again that is where "most" people are exposed to pricing and that sets in their mind next time they go to make a purchase.

I guess my question is realistically how much could a NERD, RDR, etc. get vs. what is being presented in the mass market? (and yes I know they can ask whatever they want but how much higher then "cheap" is the avg. purchaser willing to go. 10%, 100%, 300%, what?)

I am like a lot of you here - willing to pay more for quality from a reputable breeder...but what I have determined is how much more :confused: .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jkobylka

The ball python market is maturing and honestly I'm to the point where I no longer search for the best deal. I want the best animal and sure I'll haggle the price a little, but in the end I'll end up paying hundreds if not thousand more than the "average" example at the table next door.

I think a LOT of ball python hobbiest and breeders are coming to this point. Single examples of prices anywhere mean nothing. If you average them all together you'll get a feel of where a project is priced at.

Justin

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i agree, good post!!


good deals can be found, if your only criteria is price. it is not hard to find the lowest. when you start to look for the best examples or the best service and trust, imo price is farther down the ladder.

personally i would rather pay a little more and have peace of mind. in the event of a problem i would be taken care of, rather than the feeling of not knowing or am i out of luck??

when deals go good, everything is cake. when deals go bad or animals die or get sick. that's when you need the great service and trust.


vaughn

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lord jackel

Agreed...if true. It would be interesting to know how much of the annual BP volume is done via KS and Fauna. As for shows I agree they are a free for all...but again that is where "most" people are exposed to pricing and that sets in their mind next time they go to make a purchase.

I guess my question is realistically how much could a NERD, RDR, etc. get vs. what is being presented in the mass market? (and yes I know they can ask whatever they want but how much higher then "cheap" is the avg. purchaser willing to go. 10%, 100%, 300%, what?)

I am like a lot of you here - willing to pay more for quality from a reputable breeder...but what I have determined is how much more :confused: .

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Well I think at some point people will understand that with a higher price comes something other than an animal that I could have gotten for 200.00 cheaper two tables down.

See the thread with the Wild Caught title.

With a established breeder like NERD, RDR, VPI, 8ball you'll get the intangible. but just as important fuzzy feel good of knowing that if I have a problem with my NERD Het pied or 8ball YB or RDR goblin marker that I can pick the phone up get Kev/Kara or Adam or Ralphie and know that they have me and my snakes interest in mind with the ability to fix problems or what ever.

Thats what I shop I find a breeder I like and then see if they have an animal I want if not so be it but thats the breeder(s) I am buying from.

I agree with you guys that it is important to buy quality animals from quality breeders. I just don't think a breeder has to be one of the big guys to produce top quality animals and be trustworthy. I have bought animals from some of the big guys as well as some smaller breeders. Everyone starts out as a little guy, most will always be one of the little guys. Being a reputable breeder has nothing to do with how many animals you have IMO. Maybe I have just been lucky but I don't think there is anyone that I have purchased a snake from that I would not do business with again. The big guys will give you deals too. The lesser I just bought was from one of the biggest breeders out there. I bought a pair of het lavenders from the Sutherlands last year and they took $1000 off the listed price. You just can't be afraid to ask. As long as you are polite and don't make rediculous offers I have found pretty much every breeder big or small will work with you a little on the price.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pfan151

I agree with you guys that it is important to buy quality animals from quality breeders. I just don't think a breeder has to be one of the big guys to produce top quality animals and be trustworthy. I have bought animals from some of the big guys as well as some smaller breeders. Everyone starts out as a little guy, most will always be one of the little guys. Being a reputable breeder has nothing to do with how many animals you have IMO. Maybe I have just been lucky but I don't think there is anyone that I have purchased a snake from that I would not do business with again. The big guys will give you deals too. The lesser I just bought was from one of the biggest breeders out there. I bought a pair of het lavenders from the Sutherlands last year and they took $1000 off the listed price. You just can't be afraid to ask. As long as you are polite and don't make rediculous offers I have found pretty much every breeder big or small will work with you a little on the price.

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Good post! Especially about the smaller breeders. I've purchased from small breeders as well as "big breeders" and there have been cases where I was actually more impressed with the small breeder quality of the animals. That's not to say the ones from the big guy were inferior by any means.

I think that in some cases the little guy gives just as much quality because they are competing with the big guys and to win business and a solid reputation they really have to go the extra mile.

But I also agree with other posts that there are people who do it not for the love of snakes or the hobby but because they're trying to make a quick buck. These are the kind of people I won't go near even with a ten foot stick.

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Originally Posted by MATT FISHER REPTILES

for some reason there are a lot of people that seem to be getting out of the balls.

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That is because they were not passionate about their animal to start with, but only interested into making a quick buck, those who get into breeding for those kind of reasons will not make it and will get out of it in no time, and to me it is a good thing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kavmon

for a boa guy, you sure are interested in ball prices!!




vaughn

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i have been out of boas for over 7 months now.( as they are not allowed in my home state) i have over 20 adult female that will breed this fall and 50 06 female cb balls and am starting to put a nice stable of studs together. so yes i am verry interested in ball prices.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

You have every thing from NERD to "Jimmy's" Fauna and KS are sale it cheap Sale it Fast get it gone sites.

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Leave the Jimi out of it! lol

i will never understand why they keep bring you up from what i hear you are great to deal with . hahahah

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MATT FISHER REPTILES

i have been out of boas for over 7 months now.( as they are not allowed in my home state) i have over 20 adult female that will breed this fall and 50 06 female cb balls and am starting to put a nice stable of studs together. so yes i am verry interested in ball prices.

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i didn't remember that, i was just reading your sig.

give brock a call, i hear he is setting prices on lemon blasts this season for everyone.


vaughn

*sigh*

well. all i have to say is, anyone who's willing to sacrifice quality for a cheap price is crazy. CRAZY.

especially since some of these animals will be their foundation stock.. eh.. hello?

i mean, buying a mid/low quality animal at 600$ when you could have saved but a tiny bit longer, 1 more season, you could have had the 1k$ animal and much, much better quality (and you know chances are that 1k$ animal would be 850-950$ possibly next season) is just a big waste of money to me.

Can we have a mature discussion without bring smartass comments and sarcasm in it? It adds nothing to the discussion and just annoys people causing them to not even bother with posting. If you have a point, by all means make it, but act your age when making it.

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Originally Posted by sw204me

Can we have a mature discussion without bring smartass comments and sarcasm in it? It adds nothing to the discussion and just annoys people causing them to not even bother with posting. If you have a point, by all means make it, but act your age when making it.

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are you referring to me? i did not intend my comments to come off as short or sarcastic even. just made my point and tried to be nice about it.

:confuzd:

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Originally Posted by shhhli

are you referring to me? i did not intend my comments to come off as short or sarcastic even. just made my point and tried to be nice about it.

:confuzd:

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No, I'm not. Lets just have a fun discussion and be adults about it.

I myself purchased a very nice high contrast albino from a breeder that came highly referred by a source I trust. I paid in the higher range and could have very easily paid 30% less BUT I know this animal will keep it's color(all albinos look nicer as babies) and I know exactly where the bloodline came from. I felt it was a better long term investment. I also bought a mojave and a butter from people I have a rapport with and feel comfortable with those purchases as well. Everyone wants a good price, which is fine, but I also want to feel comfortable with the people I am dealing with. I feel i got that, I got good deals from people I know and a high quality animal from someone I don't but came highly referred. Basically my source said this is the only guy you should buy an albino from here(Daytona) and I went with the recomendation. Trust comes first and price second. At least that's what let's me sleep at night. :sweeet:

Would this be the same albino you lost? :(

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kavmon

give brock a call, i hear he is setting prices on lemon blasts this season for everyone.


vaughn

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There's that! :rockon:

I think the prices at Daytona are exactly what all of the pro's in the business expected them to be ... if you're in the know, it's really no big deal … this is just how it’s been year after year for a long time now ... if you're not in the know then it may or may not have been surprising, depending on what your expectations are or were … new people to the business or “breeders” with very little experience are usually caught off guard by Daytona prices.

For me, I feel that right now is an AMAZING time for everyone that is passionate about ball pythons ... there are breeders big and small selling quality animals at prices that people can afford. Heck, back when I started buying ball python mutations I was paying 10, 20, and 30 thousand dollars for animals ... today, anyone can afford them.

If you're a buyer, a world of possibilities is now open for you ... if you're a breeder, your potential number of customers excited about buying animals from you is growing by an order of magnitude week after week.

I'm excited to see where we go from here ... if you're into ball pythons as much as I am, I’m sure you realize that the future is going to be absolutely AMAZING!

-adam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sw204me

Would this be the same albino you lost? :(

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I just got her 2 days ago, how could she be lost? :confused:

Lost as in passed away, the one you told us about at the show. Didn't know if that was the one you were referring too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sw204me

Lost as in passed away, the one you told us about at the show. Didn't know if that was the one you were referring too.

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That animal was purchased years ago(Not at Daytona). This thread is referring to prices at Daytona this year(a couple of days ago).

Come on Daniel your a college boy, your supposed to have good comprehension skills :D.

Sorry man, I got all confizzled... :( :(

Didn't know that the story you told above was referring to this Daytona. Ya, I suck, I know, lol.

On a quick side note, took at a look at your site, that Red BD you got, I think it's name is Rokk, is stunning man! Gorgeous BD! Coolest one I have seen. And your orchids have some amazing coloring as well. :rockon:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I think the prices at Daytona are exactly what all of the pro's in the business expected them to be ... if you're in the know, it's really no big deal … this is just how it’s been year after year for a long time now ... if you're not in the know then it may or may not have been surprising, depending on what your expectations are or were … new people to the business or “breeders” with very little experience are usually caught off guard by Daytona prices.

For me, I feel that right now is an AMAZING time for everyone that is passionate about ball pythons ... there are breeders big and small selling quality animals at prices that people can afford. Heck, back when I started buying ball python mutations I was paying 10, 20, and 30 thousand dollars for animals ... today, anyone can afford them.

If you're a buyer, a world of possibilities is now open for you ... if you're a breeder, your potential number of customers excited about buying animals from you is growing by an order of magnitude week after week.

I'm excited to see where we go from here ... if you're into ball pythons as much as I am, I’m sure you realize that the future is going to be absolutely AMAZING!

-adam

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Yes siiiir!!! But quality and peace of mind does have a price tag that's why I tend to go with breeder's that will be there tomorrow.;)

For those of you who are afraid of the pricing look at it like this for one minute. THE ONLY WAY YOU WILL LOOSE IN THIS MARKET IS IF YOU SELL YOUR BREEDERS. Say you buy a snake for 1000.00 in two years you have 1150-1250 in the snake which in two years the babies have dropped from 1000.00 to 400.00 in value. Still in the first years breeding you either are in the money or come close to being there. But the great thing here is you get several years now where you only will put a couple of hundred dollars back into this snake and look at the return yearly.
That was one take now here's another one. Prices will continue to fall and eventually pet stores will be buying albino balls to put into their stores just like they do with albino burmese now. In my opinion that's when the ball market will be alot of fun, When a pet store walks into a show and buys every spider or mojave or albino you have on the table. So the answer here is just produce more. Set yourself up to increase if not double your offspring every year or two.
I will give you what we have done to expand in the past two seasons. We went from producing 31 clutches in 06 to 68 clutches in 07 for this next year we only increased our ball pythons by about 10 but we have over 70 breeder size retics, burmese and boas. We decided to diversify this season to add other snakes in with our ball pythons. We will see if it pays off for us in a year.
In closing I feel this market and industry as a whole is the best it has ever been. I wish I had the money and room now to invest into the market again because like Adam I remember paying big money for some of the snakes I own and I look today at what I could buy for the same money. I am excited about this market and where we are headed in the future.

good post.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Emilio

Yes siiiir!!! But quality and peace of mind does have a price tag that's why I tend to go with breeder's that will be there tomorrow.;)

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sometimes. you can do 20 mins of looking around and find a great breeder with a good rep that dosnt have a 30%higher than market value mark up.

I love that my name gets brought up in this. Anyways the show was fun prices took some adjusting as they should on some morphs and there was plenty of morphs there to choose from. If people were so upset with $3000 Lemonblasts they should have bought them. End of my rant as I am sure I will attacked by this afternoon. The ball market is fine and prices will always come down if you can't live with it get out!


Brock

exactly. the only people that will attack are the jelious haters. who wish they had 20 lemonblasts to sell.

But question which is a greater asset to the market "quality" or "quantity"??

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Originally Posted by MATT FISHER REPTILES

exactly. the only people that will attack are the jelious haters. who wish they had 20 lemonblasts to sell.

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Umm....no

Quote:

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But question which is a greater asset to the market "quality" or "quantity"??

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That's easy! Quality, hands down!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

But question which is a greater asset to the market "quality" or "quantity"??

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I think as Adam points out you really need both. The quantity increase (ie. lower prices) are helping to drive new customers and owners into the market meaning the market can support more breeders.

You also need the quality as he and Brock point out - spending more on solid animals today that will produce for you into the future.

We have to keep in mind not everyone wants to breed (my guess is most don't want to)...so cost is more a factor for many in getting a cool looking pet.

Agreed.

My point is that it seems that as the quantity of Breeders/animals produced goes up the prices seem to be falling along with the quality of animal produced. Or am I just imagining things.