Guess I should have expected this...

I put an ad in my local Craiglist looking for rat breeders in the area, because my local petstore WAY overcharges for rats.

Here's a response I got today, followed by my response.

Jill Kelly

Have you ever had a rat as a pet? They are incredibly good natured with amazing personalities. It's a shame that you seek them only for food. If you're going to sacrifice a living creature in such a way, you should take a moment to respect it's own life. They sell frozen feeders that you can buy so you don't have to put a living animal through a torturous death. It's far more humane.

My response:

You need to calm the hell down about things you don't understand. I'm
fully informed about the implications of feeding a live rat to my
snakes, and I've had many rodents as pets, including guinea pigs,
which I currently keep. I'm not some sicko that enjoys "sacrificing a
living creature." I'm feeding my pets. Got news for you -- frozen
feeders nor live feeders die in particularly pleasant circumstances. You think dog food or cat food grows on trees? You think
your burger fell on your plate from the sky? What occurs in my own
home is a natural part of life, and unless you're a strict vegan, one
in which you passively facilitate by being a consumer. DON'T email me
unless you're responding to your ad, and don't come at me with a
holier-than-thou attitude. There's a really easy way to avoid these
conversations -- if you don't like the title of the ad, don't open it.


Ok, maybe I came off a little catty... And perhaps I should have expected this. Just wanted to share.

H3LL YEAH!!!! :rockon:

Well, you're right! While yes, I think your reply was just a tad on the harsh side, I can not say that I would have worded it any more "pleasent", knowing me, I probably would not have been that nice. ;)
It is rather annoying that people don't stop to use a shred of common sense about life and the natural food chain. :rolleyes:

Me personaly, I LOVE rats and mice and would be more than happy to have some as "pets" but I gaurentee you, although the mice I feed my snakes, even though they are F/T are still "cute", they're FOOD. Even if I fed live, food is food and pets are pets. I'm not going to feed my two kittens to my snakes but by God if I had a litter of rats or mice, the babies would be snake food, "cute" or not.

One of my daughters tried to pull the "ohhh Mom, that mouse is so cute! Why did they kill it? I wish snakes didn't eat mice" So I told her "Brandi, do you like Ketzel (my MBK)? Do you like being able to hold her and help me clean out her container? Would you prefer she starve to death? Do you still want that corn snake you've been dying for, for the past year?"
To which she answered: Yes, yes, no and yes.
I reminded her that she's fed Ketzel and Ambross (my bull snake) many times before and never had a problem with it and just because they're eating larger mice now shouldn't make a difference. As well, if she's going to have her *own* snake, she *better* get use to it because that's just what snakes eat. They *can't* eat salad or pizza, or fried chicken... they eat other animals, that's the way it is... get use to it. "Now, drop the mouse in Ketzel's container then we'll discuss those cheese burgers you like so much and we'll see if you feel sorry enough for the cow that died in order for you to have that burger in the first place that you'll never eat another burger in your life and only eat split pea soup :P". Needless to say, she hasn't really "felt sorry" for the feeders since then and when she does, she reminds herself "food is food and pets are pets and this is food, not a pet".

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...8/yourrock.gif https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...8/devotion.gif

I would have probably said the same thing!:D

:D Thanks for the responses guys! If I had taken a few breaths I probably would have taken a less harsh tone with her, but she caught me at a very bad time. I'm glad I was about to type out everything I wanted to say without cursing at her. LOL

I would so high five you. Awesome response. Kudos!!!!

speaking of Craigslist....I posted a similar ad seeking live feeders...I got one response and it was flagged down 10 minutes after posting it. How exactly is your ad worded?

Right on! Nature.. predators and prey.. need I say more!

Right on!!! Your my new hero, post more if he responds. I would love to hear it.
:rockon:

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Originally Posted by nathanledet

I would so high five you. Awesome response. Kudos!!!!

speaking of Craigslist....I posted a similar ad seeking live feeders...I got one response and it was flagged down 10 minutes after posting it. How exactly is your ad worded?

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Thanks :) I worded mine like this:

Seeking local rat breeders to purchase rat feeders from. Please contact me by email.

Why did they pull yours?

I kind of have a problem with your response, and theres too. I have had both animals mice, and rats as pets, and they are one of the most sociable things, besides dogs, I have ever had .I found out snakes were for me, so i decided to to add 2. And I knew they ate mice and rats, but it is nature, and dang, have you ever seen a calf? The cutest things EVER! But i can still eat them, and will, that helps with the feeding of the cute and helpless baby mice and rats...lol. The way they put cattle, mice, rats, etc down, is humane. So they do die in pleasant circumstances...if you make it that way. You maybe should have stated that you would feed FT, if your snake would eat it.

Either way, very great emails by both, full of info, so it didn't sound like she didn't know what she way talking about for the most part. but kudos to you!:rockon:


Opinion Stangs13 2007(C):D

Nice going! :) Yeah, you probably could have worded it a bit 'softer', but then softness hardly seems to work on people like that.

I get reactions like that quite a lot since I happen to wear a pentacle around my neck all the time. It's not nearly as bad here in Denver as it was in Texas, but I still get those who try and 'convert' me...and if they see me with a snake or overhear that I have snakes, oh boy. Heck, just talking about picking up feeders or bringing my feeder mice home on the bus, I've had people like that try and start in on me. All I do is remind them about the natural order of things and 'assure' them that the mice will not suffer unduly.

Sometimes I wonder why it has to be so hard these days for pet owners to go about their business without getting stuff like that...

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Originally Posted by stangs13

I kind of have a problem with your response, and theres too. I have had both animals mice, and rats as pets, and they are one of the most sociable things, besides dogs, I have ever had .I found out snakes were for me, so i decided to to add 2. And I knew they ate mice and rats, but it is nature, and dang, have you ever seen a calf? The cutest things EVER! But i can still eat them, and will, that helps with the feeding of the cute and helpless baby mice and rats...lol. The way they put cattle, mice, rats, etc down, is humane. So they do die in pleasant circumstances...if you make it that way. You maybe should have stated that you would feed FT, if your snake would eat it.

Either way, very great emails by both, full of info, so it didn't sound like she didn't know what she way talking about for the most part. but kudos to you!:rockon:


Opinion Stangs13 2007(C):D

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Yeah I understand what you mean. I understand why feeding thawed could be a good solution. For right now, I have at least 2 picky snakes and for me, the convenience is just to feed them all the same thing. I guess I just don't get why for some people, it's a crime for it to occur for an animal in captivity, when in nature, the same darn thing happens on the daily. Whether I feed live or not, a rat died to feed my snake.

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Originally Posted by Argentra

Nice going! :) Yeah, you probably could have worded it a bit 'softer', but then softness hardly seems to work on people like that.

I get reactions like that quite a lot since I happen to wear a pentacle around my neck all the time. It's not nearly as bad here in Denver as it was in Texas, but I still get those who try and 'convert' me...and if they see me with a snake or overhear that I have snakes, oh boy. Heck, just talking about picking up feeders or bringing my feeder mice home on the bus, I've had people like that try and start in on me. All I do is remind them about the natural order of things and 'assure' them that the mice will not suffer unduly.

Sometimes I wonder why it has to be so hard these days for pet owners to go about their business without getting stuff like that...

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Thanks! LOL I get the same kind of people trying to convert me.

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Originally Posted by darkangel

Whether I feed live or not, a rat died to feed my snake.

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Yep.*nods*

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Originally Posted by darkangel

I guess I just don't get why for some people, it's a crime for it to occur for an animal in captivity, when in nature, the same darn thing happens on the daily. Whether I feed live or not, a rat died to feed my snake.

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And whether you had the snake, or the snake lived in the wild something had to die to feed it.

Now, I somewhat understand the feelings of the person who responded, but at the same point I don't believe that they had a point at all. As someone who's owned rats as pets, having to feed a live rat to my future pet was a big thing I had to come to terms with... I knew that you could feed frozen, but I also knew from research that many wouldn't eat them. Then one day I realized that 1. It was a natural hunter/prey food chain; 2. If done right, it was not cruel - I do believe there are people out there who make it about cruelty and ruin it for the rest of us; 3. No, it isn't for everyone but that's why not everyone owns snakes as pets.

Now, what annoys me are those who feel the need to point out 'how wrong it is' to others and try to jam their own feelings and beliefs down your throat - and especially when they have no actual clue about what they are talking about.

I have a very strict vegan friend, animal rights supporter (hates the term activist) all the way... When I talked to him about this sort of thing his basic beliefs were that 1. most of the captive bred snakes are being driven out of their own habitats and are becoming endangered; 2. it's a natural order of things which doesn't involve plotting out massive lots of land and destroying natural habitats to produce food (he means cattle here); 3. responsible owners aren't about cruelty to the 'rodents' they are about ensuring that the animals which they are keeping are kept in the best possible health.

It was actually one of the best conversations about the subject as I was initially worried about the response he was going to give me... At the end, he said, "Hey, look at the crap my cat eats... Lets not even go there".

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"Now, what annoys me are those who feel the need to point out 'how wrong it is' to others and try to jam their own feelings and beliefs down your throat - and especially when they have no actual clue about what they are talking about."

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A-bleepin-men! That annoys me whether they're talking about animal rights, religion, or sports! All it takes is just a bit of effort and time to research and gain understanding...but no...
Amazingly, I also have a few vegan friends who are not extremists. Conversations with them are intelligent and insightful and we often exchange new info and ideas. It is, after all, possible to be against animal cruelty and still eat meat, wear leather, and feed your pets what's natural for them. :)

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Originally Posted by darkangel

Yeah I understand what you mean. I understand why feeding thawed could be a good solution. For right now, I have at least 2 picky snakes and for me, the convenience is just to feed them all the same thing. I guess I just don't get why for some people, it's a crime for it to occur for an animal in captivity, when in nature, the same darn thing happens on the daily. Whether I feed live or not, a rat died to feed my snake.

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I asked a "furry protector" (that's what I call them) this one day and you know what they told me?
"I know that's what they eat in the wild, but they have packaged kibble for dogs, cats, ferrets, birds and just about every other animal that eats meat, so why can't they come up with a "snake chow"?" :rolleyes:
Now aside from that being completely obsurd, I told the lady,
"Well, do you know how all of those processed, packaged pet foods are made and what they're made from? Do you have any problem with rats, mice, rabbits, baby chicks, etc. being killed and made into snake chow.... if anyone could figure out how to do so in a manner in which a snake would actually eat it?" I didn't even go into the whole explanation of how snakes are NOT dogs, cats or ferrets and how they do not hunt, kill and consume their prey in even remotely the same fashion.

She also said, "well, I know that's what they eat in the wild, but I don't have to SEE them doing that in the wild". To which I said "well, you don't have to SEE them do it at my house either!" ;) :rolleyes:

I have to comment on this too, I found it just too funny:

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I get reactions like that quite a lot since I happen to wear a pentacle around my neck all the time. It's not nearly as bad here in Denver as it was in Texas, but I still get those who try and 'convert' me...and if they see me with a snake or overhear that I have snakes, oh boy. Heck, just talking about picking up feeders or bringing my feeder mice home on the bus, I've had people like that try and start in on me.

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:8: Oh good lord y'all, get your pitch forks and hang the rope over the old oak tree... she's a cookin' up mice in her culdron to sacrifice to her evil serpents during the witching hours! LOL
I can't stand people like that who feel as though it is their "duty" to try and "save" you from yourself. :rolleyes:
Heck, I'm a "religious, bible beliving, Sabbath keeping" type and even I get condemed for keeping "the devil's creatures" in my home.

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"Oh good lord y'all, get your pitch forks and hang the rope over the old oak tree... she's a cookin' up mice in her culdron to sacrifice to her evil serpents during the witching hours!"

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ROTFL!!! :8: :laughing: :rofl:
That was the greatest! I simply have to keep a record of that one!

Hmm, snake chow... yeah right. It's hard enough to get them to eat FT!
Don't you just love the ideas some people come up with. It's like when this person overheard me talking about the zoo animals and the fact that the big cats eat a special carnivore diet. They just spoke up saying they were glad zoos had it "right" and didn't feed them real animals. I think he thought it was some sort of dried kibble. The look on his face when I mentioned that the diet is mostly fortified fresh ground meat... priceless. And of course, I had to add that the meat was from a plant that properly and humanely dealt with the animals...before he recovered enough to start wailing at me for supporting that.

The problem with reacting the way you did, with some obvious anger, is that you are simply reinforcing a belief system that says that people that own snakes and feed live are either:

1) sicko's that get a thrill out of watching rats die as horribly as possible
2) just wierdo freaks with quick tempers who don't care
3) they don't care about their snakes safety

That last one is a belief system even within our own ranks of snakekeepers, as evidenced by the constant live vs f/t threads on every snake forum online every day of the week.

I think the only way to deal with this is either ignore that kind of thing and go about your business. If you know what you do is right, then you don't have to justify it to anyone. Other than that, education presented calmly with facts to back it up and some understanding of other people's lack of knowledge is always good. :)

Yeah Jo, I agree I could have acted more maturely. I'm honestly glad that I made my point as clear as I wanted to. I could have been a real hot head, and the next time it happens, I don't think it'll bother me as much.

Wether people like it or not we are all part of the food chain. Some teenage girl at a petstore got weird on me one day when I was getting mice so I asked her what did you have for lunch? She said a hamburger. I told there are 1000's of things you can eat other than a cow but a BP can only eat one thing rodents, and he doesn't waste a drop of it. So who is the hypocrite. Just because you didn't kill it doesn't mean it didn't die! Her Mom looks at me and says you're right. We as humans think we are the only ones that have a right to kill yet the reality is we were designed to eat mostly plants but probably kill more than any other species on the planet and waste the most. God made the food chain, and we are all part of it, like it or not.

i had this one lady i talked to when i was in a pet store getting gerbil food, she was talking about how rats are such filthy creatures and all people that have rodents as pets are estranged, or demented. i over heard all this and asked her if she liked snakes, and she went on a little tirade about them, and how they all should be killed. well i ask her if she knew what snakes eat, and after she said people (wtf?), she said rodents. i told her in her perfect world with no snakes, all the rats and mice and such would run rampant. snakes eat the rodents, keeping their population down. with out them rodents would kill crops and destroy ecosystems. well she made some other snotty remarks, and i just had to walk away.... some people just don't get how the world works.

sorry just wanted to share this little story.

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Originally Posted by Kagez28

i had this one lady i talked to when i was in a pet store getting gerbil food, she was talking about how rats are such filthy creatures and all people that have rodents as pets are estranged, or demented. i over heard all this and asked her if she liked snakes, and she went on a little tirade about them, and how they all should be killed. well i ask her if she knew what snakes eat, and after she said people (wtf?), she said rodents. i told her in her perfect world with no snakes, all the rats and mice and such would run rampant. snakes eat the rodents, keeping their population down. with out them rodents would kill crops and destroy ecosystems. well she made some other snotty remarks, and i just had to walk away.... some people just don't get how the world works.

sorry just wanted to share this little story.

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A rat must have peed on her as a child. :rolleyes: :D

Or bit her. I dealt with quite a few of those when I worked at Petsmart... I learned to just politely walk away. Those people just can't be talked to.

True, true.
It's a good thing it wasn't me at that pet store. I would have felt compelled to gripe (loudly) about how, instead of picking up mice for my snakes to eat, I should, instead, pick up some gerbils and hamsters because I can't stand those nasty, dirty little things. All they do is poop, stink and bite and are only good as snake food.

*Note*
That is NOT my actual frame of mind regarding hamsters and gerbils.... I actually adore the little fuzzies, but yes, I've been bitten by them numerous times.

why do people like that even go in the pet store? silly rabbits!:P

I have my ideas on that... I think those people just want to complain out loud and hopefully get some 'converts' to hating X animal. Kinda like the people on the streets who scream bible verses at the top of their lungs. So sad...

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Originally Posted by python.princess

why do people like that even go in the pet store? silly rabbits!:P

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My take on that would be one of the following:

1. They're attention deprived
2. Their mommies didn't let them have a pet as a child
3. Their daddy kept running over their pets
4. Their ex-spouse wants/has said hated animal
5. They have no friends to complain to
6. They like to hear the sound of their own voice when they talk through their noses
7. They like to watch other people roll their eyes (makes them feel superior)
8. They like to watch people shake their heads (makes them feel superior)
9. They're bored
10. They're attention deprived. :P

and for the bonus round:

They're secretly holding their breath, hoping and praying that *someone* in the pet store is as attention deprived as they are and thus, will engage with them into their mindless babble and will agree with them and knight them as the next great prophet so they don't feel quite so attention deprived.

you wouldnt believe how many people like that i get all the time from working at petco.

I didn't see anything wrong with your response. In fact...I liked it, well said.

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Originally Posted by darkangel

Yeah Jo, I agree I could have acted more maturely. I'm honestly glad that I made my point as clear as I wanted to. I could have been a real hot head, and the next time it happens, I don't think it'll bother me as much.

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Believe me Amy, after enough snakes and enough time you'll get used to being a bit of a an educator and advocate for them. It amazes me how little people know about snakes and rodents, how much they fear them, that sort of thing. Sometimes just a bit of reasonable information helps at least plant the seed of an idea that snakes and rats are pretty cool creatures. :)

My favorite is always the person that gasps and asks if Emi the milksnake will "kill your children". LMAO!!! Oh yeah, the little cute snake with the tangerine eyes is just sitting around hoping to grow big enough to slaughter us in our sleep....hahahahahahahaha! I just usually smile, pet their yappy little dog and remind these folks of how many children are bitten every year by the family dog.

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Originally Posted by JBallPython

I didn't see anything wrong with your response. In fact...I liked it, well said.

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Thanks :D



And yeah it is cool to kind of be the 'educator' and show people that they aren't horrible animals. I've already turned a few of my friends around. My next project is a future father-in-law who is so scared of them he doesn't want to stay at our house :eek: .

Ummmm...sometimes having your in-laws too afraid of your pets to come visit is a good thing! LOL :D

Big amen to that one, Joanna! Ari's mother is mega terrified of amphibians, and just really scared of reptiles... :D That way, we don't have to worry too much about them wanting to come up here for a 'surprise' visit.

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I just usually smile, pet their yappy little dog and remind these folks of how many children are bitten every year by the family dog.

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I think you make a huge typo here Jo, let me re-write it for you...."I just usually smile, pull my ankle out of the jaws of their yappy little dog and remind these folks of how many children are bitten every year by the family dog." LOL
I have to agree with this too:

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Ummmm...sometimes having your in-laws too afraid of your pets to come visit is a good thing! LOL

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Heck yeah!!!!! My in laws as well as my mom won't come to our house because we have tarantulas and scorpions in every room of the house save the kids' room and the kitchen. I'm not even sure if they know we have snakes.... that would just be one more reason they would steer clear of our house.

But on a serious, in law note, me, nor my husband even speak with our families. They've done us way too wrong, way too many times; but having all the creepy critters in the house just ensures they won't decide to pop in some day. ;)