Collecting wild animals...

With what seems to be like a peak time of the year where folks are seeing wild herps I thought it would be interesting to see how people felt about the idea or action of taking an animal from the wild and keeping it as a captive.

This topic is not for pushing what is necessarily "right or "wrong" or to pick out individuals who may have done this. Rather discuss your point of view or where you stand on the issue.

I could check all the boxes....everything is conditional however....much more specific than just a general answer...

I think its fine.....If the animal is being produced in captivity, there is really no need to take it from the wild; however, some animals are not readily available in captivity so if you are interested in keeping a native species and have no access to it other than to go into the wild and catch it....why not? However, before attempting to care for a wild animal, you should have the experience and knowledge to provide for the animal.

Only if the required legal basis are covered (license to collect native animals etc)....legal issues should ALWAY be covered for ANY animal a person buys. Anyone that owns or sells an animal in violation of the law is WRONG and should be locked away.

I don't think native herps should be taken for captivity....by ignorant keepers. It takes some skill to care for a wild caught reptile; however, the majority of 'keepers' that take animals from the wild have no skill what so ever. The animals we keep currently were at one time taken from the wild, but it was only those skilled in the care of reptiles that were able to establish them.

I may or may not keep a native herp captive if found.....It depends on the animal. I have the necessary licenses for my state to take non-protected reptiles from the wild. I also feel that I have the knowledge to care for the animals if I wish to do so. If I wanted to keep a local species and could find no one that breeds the animal, I would take a locality specific pair from the wild and breed them. As a reptile keeper, I would feel that it is my responsibility to make this animal available as captive born and bred so the next person that comes along will have a choice before taking another animal out of the wild.

I think its fine as long as you are not selling them to others. I have kept lots of reptiles and amphibians that I caught growing up, its part of what got me loving herps. My friends and I spent countless hours catching whatever we could find, we setup great habitats for them and when we got tired of them we just let them go. To me it will be a sad day when you cant catch and keep any wild herps, those are great memories of being a kid that i hope my kids can have as well.

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Originally Posted by djansen

....when we got tired of them we just let them go.

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This is not a good practice.

Once an animal is removed from the wild, the chances for survival are not as great and not to mention the countless other issues that could arise. I would recommend that once you take an animal from the wild....you make sure it remains in captivity the rest of it's life.

I've never really kept a wild herp really before. Though growing up, my mother, father and I use to take in hurt animals and rehabilitate them. We raised a lot of baby birds that had fallen out of their nest. We also took in a lot of box turtles that had been hit, or found crossing the road, or just in the wrong place for a box turtle to be. Once the turtles were back to health or were in good enough health we released them or moved them to a place where they wouldn't been seeing any roads or cars any time soon. As for the birds, we did let them all go once they were eating on their own and flying.

I think if the animal species isn't doing to well in the wild then yes it's fine to take them and try to help out their numbers. If you find a wild herp and just want it because you either think it's cool or because you caught it then I'm against that. If you find a hurt herp and want to help it out and help it back to health then I'm all about that. If you need to care of that hurt wild herp for the rest of it's life then I don't see a problem with doing that either if you are able to provide that animal the correct husbandry and environment in your home.

I don't see why people NEED TO have wild corns, kings, frogs, lizards, etc specially when you can get just about any kind of herp or morph at a local reptile show. Why take something out of the wild when you really don't need to do so? Doesn't make to sense to me when people do those kind of things.

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Originally Posted by daniel1983

This is not a good practice.

Once an animal is removed from the wild, the chances for survival are not as great and not to mention the countless other issues that could arise. I would recommend that once you take an animal from the wild....you make sure it remains in captivity the rest of it's life.

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while i agree partly to what you are saying, i really doubt if i catch a garter snake or tree frog near my house, keep it for a while and let it go its going to forget how to live and eat. Reptiles cant be tamed like a dog or cat and forget how to survive, its instinct. why do you think most baby sakes are so nippy when they are born? even captive hatched, they are born like that.

I did it as a child (garter snakes, toads, frogs etc..), I always loved herps. But now with such a large collection of CB animals I would be very concerned of passing some kind of illness that the CB animals would not be able to handle. Of course endangered species should always be left alone so they can repopulate. After all , all the animals we collect came from the wild. Everything must be done responsibly, which isn't always the case. Here in the deserts of California we have desert tortises and it is illegal to take them from the wild because once they have been removed(even for short periods) thet will never survive in the wild again. Apparently they completely loose there natural navigation skills and forget where their dens and food/water sources are and the release all there water reserves and would die in the dry desert heat/sun. They end up becoming recuse animals and must live under human care for the rest of their LONG lives. I don't know about other species but it's something to think about when releasing animals back into the wild.

I have a big soft spot for an injured animal of any type that has a chance for survival but needs a little TLC... However, only would I bring a wile animal into the home for rehabilitation purposes. We've had big issues in our area with there not being enough wildlife rescue programs and have had to do this(with success I may add :) ). They are severly overburdened in our area and they only take in a few species, and only if they are positive that the animal has 100% survival rates, otherwise they put them down.

As a kid though, I was always trying to bring home snakes, newts, frogs - anything I could find really!

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Originally Posted by djansen

while i agree partly to what you are saying, i really doubt if i catch a garter snake or tree frog near my house, keep it for a while and let it go its going to forget how to live and eat. Reptiles cant be tamed like a dog or cat and forget how to survive, its instinct. why do you think most baby sakes are so nippy when they are born? even captive hatched, they are born like that.

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I never said that reptiles will 'forget' their 'instinct'. They just have a lower chance for survival.

There are two types of wild animals: those that are established in their environment and those that are not established in their environment.

The animals that are not established in their environment are at a greater risk of dying than an established animal.

A captive 'wild' reptile is not established when you release it....therefore, it has a low chance of success...I am not saying that the animal can not establish itself in the wild again....I am just saying that it is not the easiest thing to do.

...but lets forget about wild caught animals for a second....

What is another reptile that is not established in it's environment? A newborn.

When it comes out of the egg all it has only pure instinct to go by....no established shelter, no established food source, no established routine and it are 'prey' to alot of animals.

What chances of success does a hatchling snake, lizard, or turtle have in the wild? 100%? 75%? 50%? or 10%?

I know that most of us realize how dangerous it is to be a young animal in the wild. Does all the danger come from the lack of size and learned behavior? or is it more of an 'establishment' issue? I wonder.

Now compare a wild hatchling to a released wild caught captive? Both have only instinct to go by.....both have no established shelter, food source, or routine. Both have preditors that will kill them given the chance.

Once you remove an established animal from its environment, it has to start all over again when reintroduced. Instinct is just a tool.....it does not provide food, shelter, and protection.

This is a great discussion. I enjoy the topic. Good thread Mr. Warren ;)

.....lets cover some of the 'other issues' that I mentioned in my first post as well...just fuel for thought?

When keeping a native animals in captivity, we have the chance of exposing them to illnesses and parasites from exotic reptiles in our collections. Once exposed then released, the animals could spread the exotic problems into native populations. What would this do to the wild populations?

What about natural locality issues? Reptiles have great variety in nature. A snake may look a little different in coloration than another of the same species just a 10 miles down the road. Sure they may not differ enough to be subdivided into a different species or subspecies, but the two are definately different. Natually the two animals would never cross each others path.....but a person catches one, keeps it as a captive, then releases it on the same stretch of roadway.....but in the region with the snakes with different coloration. What will the new genetics do to the wild population in that area if it were to breed? Mixing color 'morphs' in captivity happens all the time, but is providing the opportunity for it to happen in nature any different?

Besides the other problems you have mentioned, most people do not check on the different species they are collecting. They see a neat looking snake or tortoise wit no consideration if it is a n endangered species. Just because an animal isn't on an endangered list doesn't mean it is plentiful. When I was a child the wildlife was so plentiful. Take for example three toed box turtles, not endangered, but so many people collect them for the pet trade, that I see few in their natural habitat and see them in petstores everywhere. Are they heading for that list?!! Yes, there are many now, but nothing like 20 yrs ago. Especially when shops can snap up 40 - 70 dollars a pc. for them. Ask yourself if you really need that herp before collecting. Do your homework if you decide to take it home.:(

Another aspect that really doesn't concern most posters probably is the folks who take hatchling seaturtles. Not illegilly, but to keep them until night when they are released under cover of darkness to raise the numbers that will make it for that first all important swim. There's also some that keep them until they are a certain size, then release them.
The studies said that it helps to raise the percentage that survive, and I wish I could find the studies online to post.
I wonder if similar things could be done with other species? We all have heard how such a high percentage of hatchlings survive.. but if a certain number of hatchlings are taken, raised past that first year's size, then released, how do they do?
I guess that by tagging them and rechecking to see how many of the returning nesting turtles are tagged it should show a increase or not.
I think keeping an animal for a few days, then releasing it exactly where it was caught(unless it was taken off a road! LOL) wouldn't hurt much, as long as quarentine procedures were followed if other herps are being kept.
In general, I'm more fond of taking pictures, not the animal.
Wolfy

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

I wonder if similar things could be done with other species?

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It is done with alligators every year.

When alligators were almost poached into extinction due to the skin trade, the numbers were relatively low in the wild.

However, today's legal alligator farms are only allowed to 'harvest' a small percentage of what they actually keep and grow. The rest are relocated to the wild. Since the practice has been in place, the number of alligators has increased dramatically......captive incubation for a better hatch rate, more animals surviving past the first year , and less pressure from poachers due to a captive source of skin and meat....it is no surprise that it had a positive effect.

But then again all you do is take away the 'size factor' by allowing them to grow up in captivity....they still have to establish themselves to survive....but I guess a 3' long alligator has less chance of predation than a 1' long alligator.

Interesting and excellent posts although my question was more posed in light of an "average" person (us for example) taking a wild native species rather than a large scale rehabilitation scenario.

I'm kinda with Daniel in that I don't know if I have a set oppinion. I would be a hipocrite if I said no one should be taking in wild animals they found...in fact I have in my possesion a hatchling eastern milk snake. I've had it about 2 weeks and when it was brought to me it was no more than a couple days old. I live in "town" and it was brought in from a farm. So I'm sort of in a prediciment. My first instinct after ID'ing the snake was to release it...however because of the surrounding environment I fell that its not such a good idea to let it go in this area. I am still leaning towards letting it go the animal is young enough that its survival could go both ways but I also know that every day it is kept changes what the animal knows to be natural or "life".

My other thoughts and oppinions are that the law should not be broken to the point where someone seeks out an animal because they want something to keep or they hope to somehow gain by collecting and redistributing. I feel strongly about conservation and seeing a native species in the wild is a real privelege and not something that should be a rare occurance (depending on the environment).

I as many others started into the fascination by spending countless days in the woods searching out and "catching" animals that interested me. Now that I'm older part of that has changed. I would only photograph or observe for a moment what I find and not remove any animal from its habitat.

This is a great thread, because the more that you think about it, the more factors are involved with keeping a native herp/animal, and the bigger then the decision is whether or not to keep a native species. At this point in life (most likely from here on out), I myself would not keep native, wild species due to the fact that there are many animals/herps out there as pets already that are in need of rehoming or rescuing, or could be bought by a breeder etc. Being a responsible pet mommy, I would want to make sure that I could provide any animal under my care with the best home/life possible, and I would not be sure that I could do that with a native species. Sometimes things that are naturally wild don't thrive in captivity, although I am not sure if this is true for herps (I know that BP can be wild caught and kept as pets as far as any others IDK), but I would be afraid that in trying to keep it and doing the best that I could for it, I would be shortening its life in the long run. With that said though, if I ran across a herp/animal in need (sick, wounded, etc.) I would try to help it out the best way that I could, but most likely, depending on the animal, I would probably bring it to the people that could do the best for it and do much more for it than I could (a wildlife rehabilitation center of some sort).

But at the same time, and like many of us on here, I cannot say either that I have not ever kept a native species as a pet. I was one that would catch little lake turtles, and catfish, sunfish, minnows, etc. and we would house them in a 55 gal aquarium that my mom used to keep when I was little. But as a kid, you don't think about the other factors involved, you just think about what it is that you have caught/found. Most kids want to keep some sort of wild animal at one point in time or another, whether it be turtles, frogs, birds, baby rabbits, etc.

So my thought on this is that only under certain circumstances should a wild native species be kept in captivity. These animals, in my opinion, should not be kept as a pet just for the sake of having it. Each life is precious, and the lives of wild animals should be enjoyed just as they are, in the wild.

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Originally Posted by Sunny1

So my thought on this is that only under certain circumstances should a wild native species be kept in captivity. These animals, in my opinion, should not be kept as a pet just for the sake of having it. Each life is precious, and the lives of wild animals should be enjoyed just as they are, in the wild.

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I couldn't have said that better myself, and thank you. I know we've accepted wild animals into our home before... But it was only to ensure their own survival upon release. Now that I'm a bit older and not the 'outdoorsy' kid I once was bringing home anything I could find and begging to be allowed to keep it I've come to understand this one.

There tends to be a proper place for everything... These are called 'wild' animals for a reason, and in the wild is typically where they will thrive the best.

I still worry about our baby squirrel though!

People meddle with nature already too much. Wild herps belong where they are; out in the wild. If it is a hopeless case (like, say, someone is bulldozing a pond to build a strip mall) I see no problems with taking the herps in that would have otherwise been destroyed. And I am all for captive breeding programs to save endangered herps.
I wish that as a kid, I had been taught to appreciate and respect wild herps in heir natural habitats. I felt the need to bring some home and keep them. Some lived and even thrived; others languished.