Man this stuff is just disturbing...

I cam across this page when trying to find a close up picture of a pastel BP, have no idea why this page came up. It talks about the one incident where the RTB ate the BP but it has a bunch of other stuff on there that people really need to be aware of.


*WARNING* Some of the pics are really gross. :(

I had no idea a rat could do so much damage in a single night.. :(

http://www.boa-constrictors.com/com/News/News.htm

That is so sad... And unfortunately not uncommon. A friend of mine has a gorgeous rescued Blood Python which was unfortunately terribly burned and scarred all down her back... It makes me sick to my stomach when I see such irresponsible owners and what their lack of competant care can do to these wonderful animals.

I wouldn't know from experience or anything... but from the looks of it, that rat had to be either VERY big i would think, or the rat had to have been placed in the tank and left there for days!!! Like i said i have never just dropped a live mouse/rat that there eyes were opened and just walked away, i have done it with pinkies, when there eyes are still shut. BUT NEVER have i placed anything with the eyes open in there cages. I feed my snakes out of there cages though, except when there de-stressing after being moved in.

While those are very disturbing pictures, they do not represent how responsible live feedings occur. They mention this particular snake also had "serious burns" which leads me to believe their were multiple issues with extremely poor care on this animal. How very sad. :(

I've had two successful live feedings consecutively, and I've never had to worry about standing by for the whole 15 minutes. He usually strikes within the minute throwing him in after the usual 20 minute prescent.

I guess I'm fortunate.

That's kind of cruel to take pictures of the RTB eating a BP, that made me want to step on the RTB and beat it up. Those scars are really painful to look at, they're so deep. :eek:

It looks like some idiot left a rat in with the snake for half an hour unattended. I hate that this is how live feeding is represented. I feed almost all live, and even though I only got into the hobby this year, I have yet to have one of my snakes bitten or scratched.

I'm pretty sure that was no half-hour of inattention to a live feed. No rat unless it's starved near to death, is way too oversized for the snake to handle, or left for huge amounts of time in a snake's enclosure does that. If we added up the hours of successful, safe live feeds done by BPNet members without incident to the snake and a clean, quick death for the rodent....well I'm sure it's an amazingly high number (I so suck at math LOL)

Ignore the 'half an hour' thing. You know what I mean. A dummy left a rat in with a snake that wasn't interested or was incapable of eating, for FAR too long.

:O that kind of thing makes me glad that there are people like everyone on this forum who care about their snakes!! I know i feed tiki live, but i'm there watching until the little mousie is on it's way down to tiki's belly!!! I've never had him get bitten, and i keep a pair of tongs handy just incase the little stinker tries... (we tried f/t... no luck) to let a snake get that bit up takes a VERY irresponsible person!!

i decided not to click on the link... i think it'll upset me too much! some people...

Luckily, I haven't had any problems with live feeding (in my massive month and a half of BP ownership! LOL)...

One time a mouse rushed Milton (he had already eaten one, so he wasn't quite ready for the second one, I guess!). I think the mouse was more just exploring, but it scared him and he wouldn't eat it. He just acted like he wanted out of there! It wasn't really an attack, but he's still a baby!

What I don't understand is rats...honestly why do they eat so much and everything...i hate when those little bastards when they eat through the cardboard boxes that you get at pet stores...and then chase them around to finally feed them...

But why do they eat eat eat?

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Originally Posted by mricyfire

What I don't understand is rats...honestly why do they eat so much and everything...i hate when those little bastards when they eat through the cardboard boxes that you get at pet stores...and then chase them around to finally feed them...

But why do they eat eat eat?

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:confused: They eat because they're animals. They chew because they're nervous, bored, want to escape, and just to keep their front teeth from growing too long.

If you don't want the rat to eat or chew on your snake...make sure it is well fed and hydrated before offering it to your snake....try not to stress/freak out the poor little thing too much before offering it....and then only leave it in there for a few minutes under direct supervision the whole time.

Why would you expect a rat to behave as anything except a rat?

I just plop my food in there and within seconds its no longer a threat to my snake. But even if it took several minutes for it to be neutralized, I wouldn't have a problem making sure everything is ok in there, its called responsibility, and some people need to get it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by darkangel

It looks like some idiot left a rat in with the snake for half an hour unattended. I hate that this is how live feeding is represented. I feed almost all live, and even though I only got into the hobby this year, I have yet to have one of my snakes bitten or scratched.

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It happens. I was feeding my BP with the same routine I've done several dozen times before. For a few innocuous reasons, Snakey ended up striking in a cross position (like a quickly drawn 'x'). After he bit, he dragged the mouse backwards in order to get enough slack to coil around it. To do this, he had to drag the just-bitten mouse across his mid-section. To make matters worse, he tagged it in the rear which left its head completely unconstrained. I was supervising as I always do and as the mouse was pulled over Snakey's body he bit once. By chance, I had the little paper mouse baggy crumpled in my hand. I was shocked and I immediately swatted at the mouse and caused the two of them to roll over together. Snakey was not phased and continued gaining his hold. As they came to a halt, the mouse tried to bite once more and Snakey tightened up on him. Unfortunately, since the mouse was backwards he just wasn't constrained well at his head. I was terrified and quickly jammed a corner of the bag into the mouse's mouth until it relaxed.

The whole thing happened in no more than 2 seconds and my memory is time-stretched like one of being in a car accident. I almost felt sick as I waited for him to finish. Once it was done I quickly inspected Snakey and there were no signs of injury. I guess his scales did their job!


With regards to the OP: What really amazes me is that snakes don't (or for some reason can't) defend themselves.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mricyfire

What I don't understand is rats...honestly why do they eat so much and everything...i hate when those little bastards when they eat through the cardboard boxes that you get at pet stores...and then chase them around to finally feed them...

But why do they eat eat eat?

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Part of snake ownerships IMHO is knowledge and respect for the prey animals that are the sole reason our snakes are alive. :)

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Originally Posted by bearhart

It happens.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by bearhart

there were no signs of injury.

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So does it happen or doesn't it? If there isn't even a mark, is it really a bite or just the mouses mouth coming into contact with the snake?

On a more general note (for what it's worth), I fed over 500 ball pythons live rats and mice 6 days ago and not a single one was bit, scratched, or chewed to shreds .... same as it goes every week for me .... imagine that. :sweeet:

-adam

Don't get me wrong I treat them with the best of care usually give them some whole wheat bread and water...but I still don't like them only do it to make sure my guy gets a healthy meal. I understand they are animals, but I can't think of 5 animals in the entire world that eat EVERYTHING non stop...from my experience they are always eating something from box, to food, to mulch, to plants to just about anything that is in front of them and if not eating then they are sleeping.

Just didnt understand them...they have to reduce teeth size? never knew that.

From AshleyB's thread...why it is cloth they must know their is no nutritional value in that.
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j1...y_do/emmie.jpg

Rodents have teeth that do not stop growing so they must chew in order to keep those teeth worn back. That's how they were designed. That rat is likely making a nest with some material. Chewing is not always about eating.

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Originally Posted by mricyfire

I can't think of 5 animals in the entire world that eat EVERYTHING non stop

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You mean chew right? Rats only eat food, everything else gets chewed.

For what it's worth ...

Rabbits, goats, beavers, squirrels, and even puppies are five animals off the top of my head the chew as much (if not more than) rats ... just sayin. ;)

-adam

as for my little baby emmie... please do keep in mind shes far from starved lol, in fact there is a food bowl just inches from that slipper, full of nic ehealthy food. i have no idea why they have intrest in that slipper but they all like to bite on it ((shrugs))


irrisponsible people make me sick

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Originally Posted by dotc0m

That's kind of cruel to take pictures of the RTB eating a BP, that made me want to step on the RTB and beat it up. Those scars are really painful to look at, they're so deep. :eek:

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I'm surprised nobody triggered on this apalling statement.

One snake eating another is not cruel.
Taking cautionary pictures to educate others is not cruel.
Abusing animals, actively or through neglect, is unquestionably cruel.

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Originally Posted by slartibartfast

I'm surprised nobody triggered on this apalling statement.

One snake eating another is not cruel.
Taking cautionary pictures to educate others is not cruel.
Abusing animals, actively or through neglect, is unquestionably cruel.

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I definitely agree with your post.

How else will you ever educate people.

especially when you have so many people out there that only believe it if they see it for themselves.

;)

People didn't address it because I was sure they were sensing my sarcasm and biased attitude towards Ball Pythons.

Go figure, who says "beat it up". I assumed you would catch on the childish language, thanks for the negative rep points lol.

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Originally Posted by jeffnme

especially when you have so many people out there that only believe it if they see it for themselves.

;)

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I'm Roman Catholic, that's how we live our lives. There goes the saying, "I'll take your word for it."

Not that I disagree with you in terms of educating people, but there are many of those who don't have to witness that and knwo not to put two different snake species together long enough to see one get eaten.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dotc0m

I'm Roman Catholic, that's how we live our lives. There goes the saying, "I'll take your word for it."

Not that I disagree with you in terms of educating people, but there are many of those who don't have to witness that and knwo not to put two different snake species together long enough to see one get eaten.

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what???




and for the record...I didn't neg rep you.

If I did I would have the balls to sign it.

;)

I left neg rep, and I signed it. Sorry, there was nothing in that post to indicate you were joking; you were advocating crushing a snake to death...that really rubs me the wrong way ya know?

Ouch, poor snake. It looks like it was chewed on by several starving/dehydrated rats, to me. Damn morons owning snakes and letting things like this happen.. it is a crying shame.
I feed 100% live. Never had a problem with a rat biting a snake; I dangle with tongs so that the snake is in the proper position and the rat's neck/side are presented to the snake. Snake grabs, coils.. head of rodent is left sticking out of the coils, not biting the snake. How hard is this? If people dangle a rat with its mouth gaping at the snake, how can they be shocked when the snake is bitten!?

Personally Jen I don't advocate restraining a live prey item in any way during the feeding process. I believe if you feed the right size rat, that is itself well fed, full hydrated and unstressed to a snake quite capable of hunting live, there should not be a problem. Restraining a living prey item will make it freaky and likely cause it to be more aggressive IMHO.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

You mean chew right? Rats only eat food, everything else gets chewed.

For what it's worth ...

Rabbits, goats, beavers, squirrels, and even puppies are five animals off the top of my head the chew as much (if not more than) rats ... just sayin. ;)

-adam

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When you dont have anything else to say...:taz:
I'm stupid, but hey that is what the forum is for...to educate.

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Personally Jen I don't advocate restraining a live prey item in any way during the feeding process. I believe if you feed the right size rat, that is itself well fed, full hydrated and unstressed to a snake quite capable of hunting live, there should not be a problem. Restraining a living prey item will make it freaky and likely cause it to be more aggressive IMHO.

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I agree Joanna, I don't restrain any live prey, ever. If it looks like the mouse/rat is biting the snake, I don't interfere, the snakes just constrict tighter and the prey can't bite. I've never had one bite injury, scratch, or any wound and I've estimated that I've easily fed over 2000 live prey items.

I'd only dangle prey if I were feeding pre-killed or frozen thawed, but never live!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Personally Jen I don't advocate restraining a live prey item in any way during the feeding process. I believe if you feed the right size rat, that is itself well fed, full hydrated and unstressed to a snake quite capable of hunting live, there should not be a problem. Restraining a living prey item will make it freaky and likely cause it to be more aggressive IMHO.

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I agree 100%

-adam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

So does it happen or doesn't it? If there isn't even a mark, is it really a bite or just the mouses mouth coming into contact with the snake?

On a more general note (for what it's worth), I fed over 500 ball pythons live rats and mice 6 days ago and not a single one was bit, scratched, or chewed to shreds .... same as it goes every week for me .... imagine that. :sweeet:

-adam

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So I'm not making any sort of value judgement about feeding live - I"m only giving an account of what happened to me. I feed my two pythons live and plan on continuing to do so. I was only saying that there was what I consdered to be a tense situation that occurred to me. Perhaps Snakey was in less danger than I thought - its impossible to tell because I intervened. He came out of it w/o a scratch so I consider it a success.

As stories go, here's another one: One of the guys that works at the exotics store I go to has several snakes. When I was in there buying my new baby corn he was talking about wanting to order piglets online for his retic. I asked why he didn't feed live and he said because he had a corn snake once that died. He fed the thing a mouse and it managed to swing around and deliver a bite on the snake's spine right behind the head. His snake started flopping around and then promptly died. (That's when I decided to feed my corn F/T because corns just don't seem to be as strong as pythons).

You know, some people drive a car all their lives without a single incident and the vast majority of people never experience anything more than a fender bender. And then there's the occasional person that get's killed or hideously injured.

So, I think its fair to say that everytime you feed live there is a chance that just about anything could happen. It may be a small risk but its there, just like most things we do in life.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bearhart

As stories go, here's another one: One of the guys that works at the exotics store I go to has several snakes. When I was in there buying my new baby corn he was talking about wanting to order piglets online for his retic. I asked why he didn't feed live and he said because he had a corn snake once that died. He fed the thing a mouse and it managed to swing around and deliver a bite on the snake's spine right behind the head. His snake started flopping around and then promptly died. (That's when I decided to feed my corn F/T because corns just don't seem to be as strong as pythons).

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Now I don't have the experience of someone that works in an exotics store or anything fancy like that, but in my life I've kept a snake or two and that sounds to me like a case of a corn snake being fed a live animal that was entirely too large for it to handle. Not too smart.

If you drive at 120 miles per hours from traffic light to traffic light you've got accident written all over you. ;)

:sweeet:

-adam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Now I don't have the experience of someone that works in an exotics store or anything fancy like that, but in my life I've kept a snake or two and that sounds to me like a case of a corn snake being fed a live animal that was entirely too large for it to handle. Not too smart.

If you drive at 120 miles per hours from traffic light to traffic light you've got accident written all over you. ;)

:sweeet:

-adam

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I don't know alot about you, but I don't doubt you have vastly more experience than myself and my friend put together. And, you're correct in pointing out that my snake wasn't actually injured. I'll retract my statement that "it happens". If you think there is no risk to feeding live then that's great. I won't have to worry about my boys. :cool:

What about feeding birds to large pythons? Is there a significant risk of eye injury from the beak?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bearhart

I don't know alot about you, but I don't doubt you have vastly more experience than myself and my friend put together. And, you're correct in pointing out that my snake wasn't actually injured. I'll retract my statement that "it happens". If you think there is no risk to feeding live then that's great. I won't have to worry about my boys. :cool:

What about feeding birds to large pythons? Is there a significant risk of eye injury from the beak?

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Two points that I'd like to make ...

1. No where have I ever said that there is no risk of feeding live. There is a right way and a wrong way to do EVERYTHING in life. Live feeding can be just as safe as any other feeding method if done properly.

2. When I owned large boids I never had the need to feed them birds and never would if I did. The stuff that comes out as a result of feeding fowl is foul. ;)

-adam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Two points that I'd like to make ...

1. No where have I ever said that there is no risk of feeding live. There is a right way and a wrong way to do EVERYTHING in life. Live feeding can be just as safe as any other feeding method if done properly.

2. When I owned large boids I never had the need to feed them birds and never would if I did. The stuff that comes out as a result of feeding fowl is foul. ;)

-adam

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Is there a page or something you can point me to with tips for safe live feeding?"

With the fowl thing, I've read some posts suggesting health benefits from fowl to certain pythons - particularly those that would have some in their diet in the wild. This got me thinking about my JCP. Another very experienced herper I know was so-so on the idea. I got the impression he wouldn't personally bother but he did say its probably a good idea to feed them a rounded diet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bearhart

Is there a page or something you can point me to with tips for safe live feeding?"

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I posted here on bp.net once the methods I've used for feeding live to hundreds of ball pythons every week for over a decade without one bite, scratch, or mauling ... it shouldn't be too hard for someone to dig up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bearhart

With the fowl thing, I've read some posts suggesting health benefits from fowl to certain pythons - particularly those that would have some in their diet in the wild. This got me thinking about my JCP. Another very experienced herper I know was so-so on the idea. I got the impression he wouldn't personally bother but he did say its probably a good idea to feed them a rounded diet.

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I've kept just about every species of python at one point or another in my life and they all do just fine on a 100% rodent diet.

-adam

Hi,


Sorry for the delay Adam - the search function seems to be in a bad mood today and refused to show me what I wanted.

This was the only one it would condecend to share with me and even then I had to trawl the thread manually Grrrr.

Hope this helps you help.:P


dr del

Bear, no one can or would say live feeding is not without risks. So is frozen/thawed if you don't defrost properly. So is pre-killed if you only manage to stun the rodent and it wakes up hurt and highly defensive. Whether it's your snake, your kids or yourself, being alive is about being at some sort of risk pretty much constantly. The deal for me, with the snakes or in fact with the kids, is calculating risk factors and setting up situations where the risks are recognized and managed as best one can without living in constant fear of those risks occurring.

I agree. And my incident did occur in a feeding tub. However, I fed my BP in-cage today and after watching I came to the conclusion that the exact same thing could happen there.

I think the big question for me is: "Was he really in that much danger?". As Adam pointed out, the mouse did not actually leave an injury. Also, I feed fairly small prey items that are usually incapacitated inside of 5 seconds after the constriction starts.

Is the snake pretty well protected in this case? I'm sure everybody here can understand why I might have been terrified.

Well it's not like snakes worldwide are dying by the 1,000's every week from their prey biting them is it. The fact is nature designed these snakes to eat rodents. They have the physical "toolset" to do so and if healthy, can deal with the occasional small nip that rarely occurs. The problems usually occur when we humans do not set up live feeds correctly in captivity. Done correctly the snake does what it is meant to do and has done for eons of time, the rodent fulfills it's role in this dynamic and the keeper is really just a function of the rodent delivery system. :)