Prey size...

Ok, so I'm still having issues with the whole prey size issue...

I know most everyone here, at the largest, feeds small rats. At what size would you consider it OK to be feeding smalls? My smallest, at 26" and 260g ate a small with little if any difficulty, and didn't have a visible bulge once he got it past his neck. Would you say that's ok?

Also, all but my large female is on F/T. I'm working on switching her, but she's proving to be difficult having ate live for the last 6 years...

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Originally Posted by CntrlF8

Ok, so I'm still having issues with the whole prey size issue...

I know most everyone here, at the largest, feeds small rats. At what size would you consider it OK to be feeding smalls? My smallest, at 26" and 260g ate a small with little if any difficulty, and didn't have a visible bulge once he got it past his neck. Would you say that's ok?

Also, all but my large female is on F/T. I'm working on switching her, but she's proving to be difficult having ate live for the last 6 years...

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The prey item should be about the same size as the thickest part on the snakes body!!!

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Originally Posted by juddb

The prey item should be about the same size as the thickest part on the snakes body!!!

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hey, for some people that's a difficult thing to judge!

Besides, if I were to stick to that, I'd be feeding medium/large rats to my adults, and I KNOW that's not what most successful breeders do.

My little guy though, I wanna stuff him as full as I can 'cause he needs to put on some weight before the winter...

i feed my 300g ball 2 adult mice every 7 days....

hope that helps

I've wondered about this two. My female is around 600-650 grams (haven't been able to weigh her in a while), and she eats a small rat a week, with no problems.

My two adult males, around 1400g and 1300g both eat small rats.
I've wondered if I should bump them up to mediums, since they have no problems with small ones.
Is there anything wrong with feeding medium rats?

Just so you are aware, if your setup is correct, your snake shouldn't fast through the winter. Breeding males might fast for a few months bcause their mind is set on other things, but a baby shouldn't fast.

I would just stick with one medium adult mouse until the snake reaches 300g or so, then you can try bigger mice or two medium mice per week. They don't need to be stuffed full, and if they get stuffed, they will fast to catch up.

All of mine, with the exception of Amani(who is a turd), ate throughout the winter, even the males.

As they age, their metabolism slows even further, so this is why a 3000g female doesn't need a jumbo sized rat. They grow just as well on smaller meals fed more frequently.

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Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

Just so you are aware, if your setup is correct, your snake shouldn't fast through the winter. Breeding males might fast for a few months bcause their mind is set on other things, but a baby shouldn't fast.

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That's kinda my point in this. I'm hoping he'll be breedable this winter, but need to get him up to a healthy weight first...

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hey, for some people that's a difficult thing to judge!

Besides, if I were to stick to that, I'd be feeding medium/large rats to my adults, and I KNOW that's not what most successful breeders do.

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This is why when people ask I tell them to feed a prey slightly smaller than the girth size (widest part of the BP's body) and nothing ever larger than a small rat (4 weeks old - 45/65 grams)

Can someone please explain to me why a medium rat is not a good idea?

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Originally Posted by SnakieMom

Can someone please explain to me why a medium rat is not a good idea?

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Not that it's NOT a good idea, but in captivity we feed our animals much more frequently than they eat in the wild. In the wild, they'll be lucky to get 12 meals a year, and for our peace of mind we're asking them to eat 52 instead. Smaller meals are better if they're eating as often as we feed.

If you feed mediums eventually they'll go off feed to let their bodies catch up.

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Originally Posted by CntrlF8

My little guy though, I wanna stuff him as full as I can 'cause he needs to put on some weight before the winter...

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Why does he need to put on weight before the winter?

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Originally Posted by SnakieMom

Can someone please explain to me why a medium rat is not a good idea?

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1) They don't get medium sized rats once a week in the wild, in fact, 1 small/small rat once a week (52 times a year) is much more than they'd ever eat in a year in the wild.

2) More likely to encounter extended fasts, especially in the winter.

3) More likely to encounter refusals throughout the year.

4) That's a lot of food to digest each week. More waste.

If it helps, here's what I do give or take. These numbers are off the top of my head ...

(also, this doesn't cover mousers)

Right now my 2006 hatchlings range approx 300 - 800 grams ... they are all eating fuzzy rats weekly.

My 2005 hatchlings are about 800 - 1200 grams (again this is all approx) ... they are eating weaned rats weekly.

My adults range 1200 - 4800 grams and eat "small small" rats weekly ... I don't feed mediums or full grown smalls to anyone.

Each person should do what works for them ... this works for me and for people that I have helped with their ball pythons that had feeding problems ... I have tremendous success feeding my ball pythons this way ... no fasting, no refusals, everyone grows at a predictable rate and is breedable when they are breedable. My collection is checked by my vet twice a year and is flawless.

I hope that this information is helpful to someone.

-adam

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Why does he need to put on weight before the winter?

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Because I'm hoping he'll be able to breed this year, and at his current weight that's not possible. He's thin for his length, I think... The person I bought him from said he was on a fast from December up until the beginning of May.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

4) That's a lot of food to digest each week. More waste.

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not that i don't like cleaning poo every 2-3 weeks, but if i had to do it every week... :stupidme:

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Originally Posted by CntrlF8

Because I'm hoping he'll be able to breed this year, and at his current weight that's not possible. He's thin for his length, I think... The person I bought him from said he was on a fast from December up until the beginning of May.

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do you have a female for him?

Thanks, everyone, for the indepth explanations.

My female I try to feed every week, she's so chunky, and for a wild caught she
eats like a horse! :carrot:


The males, well, they're a little different. One's a WC (Merlin) and the other (as far as i know) is CB.
My next question...is it ok to feed a medium rat to a snake that eats on a totally random schedule? or, is it better to feed them small reats while trying to keep them on a schedule for health purposes?
Quite honestly, I don't know if they'd eat on a weekly basis...:confused:

I was just wondering what everyone means by small small rats.

Just curious.

Hi,


I beleive Adam once said he thinks they are around 35-40 grammes.

Anyone who has a better memory feel free to jump in and correct me though.:D


dr del

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Originally Posted by SnakieMom

Can someone please explain to me why a medium rat is not a good idea?

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In the long run your BP will fast to catch up.

When fed smaller preys BP are more consistent, doing so I do not experience fasting with my crew.

Just remember because they can eat a large prey does not mean they need to.

I'm not sure if this is possible, but how many inches (ish) is a small rat?

I wonder if it's pretty much the same throughout the country?

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Originally Posted by sophia

I'm not sure if this is possible, but how many inches (ish) is a small rat?
I wonder if it's pretty much the same throughout the country?

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I don't really calculate that way the one I use are 4 weeks old 45 to 65 grams. I just never measure length of any animals as it is really a pain to do :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Kagez28

do you have a female for him?

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Aye.. She could use a little weight too, but she's already healthy.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

If it helps, here's what I do give or take. These numbers are off the top of my head ...

(also, this doesn't cover mousers)

Right now my 2006 hatchlings range approx 300 - 800 grams ... they are all eating fuzzy rats weekly.

My 2005 hatchlings are about 800 - 1200 grams (again this is all approx) ... they are eating weaned rats weekly.

My adults range 1200 - 4800 grams and eat "small small" rats weekly ... I don't feed mediums or full grown smalls to anyone.

Each person should do what works for them ... this works for me and for people that I have helped with their ball pythons that had feeding problems ... I have tremendous success feeding my ball pythons this way ... no fasting, no refusals, everyone grows at a predictable rate and is breedable when they are breedable. My collection is checked by my vet twice a year and is flawless.

I hope that this information is helpful to someone.

-adam

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Ok, to summarize, by weight and not a 100% exact guide:

Hatchlings to 300g not listed, but I'm assuming pinkies, 5-10g

Juveniles up to approx 800g eating fuzzies, 10-20g

Sub adults 800-1200g eating weanlings, 30-45g

Adults over 1200g eating small smalls, 45-65g

Right?

I'm still not understanding what everyone means by small smalls.

Can anybody elaborate?

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Originally Posted by 2kdime

I'm still not understanding what everyone means by small smalls.

Can anybody elaborate?

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Rather than feed a massive rodent every week, stick to a smaller rodent.

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Originally Posted by CntrlF8

Ok, to summarize, by weight and not a 100% exact guide:

Hatchlings to 300g not listed, but I'm assuming pinkies, 5-10g

Juveniles up to approx 800g eating fuzzies, 10-20g

Sub adults 800-1200g eating weanlings, 30-45g

Adults over 1200g eating small smalls, 45-65g

Right?

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I don't weigh my rats (or snakes for that matter), so I honestly couldn't say. I don't believe that I'm feeding anything larger than 50 grams when it comes to smalls ... small smalls are weans with a couple extra days on them when I pull them.

Hope this helps.

-adam

I think one of the confusing thing is terminology. I use rat pups, some say rat fuzzy, some places don't use the weanling phrase but go right to small rats. Either way large food items usually lead to inconsistent feeding and/or obesity. Just cause your snake will eat larger meals every 3-5 days doen't make it ok. One thing my vet said to me is they get virtually no excersize in captivity compared to the wild and don't get a fraction of the food in the wild either. Fat snakes don't breed well(or at all) and can have health problems so those who think breeding will come sooner should think again. Guys with LOTS of experiece, like Adam, know what they are talking about. When I first started out one of my girls always wanted to eat, so when someone else refused a meal she became the garbage can and although she gained weight she became way behind and very unpredictable with her breeding cycle. So she went on a diet and hopefully will become as predictable as my other girls. I thought I would be breeding sooner but just like previously stated I am way behind. This also holds true for males. Chunky males don't breed well either. Hope this is helpful. :)

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Originally Posted by CntrlF8

Ok, to summarize, by weight and not a 100% exact guide:

Hatchlings to 300g not listed, but I'm assuming pinkies, 5-10g

Juveniles up to approx 800g eating fuzzies, 10-20g

Sub adults 800-1200g eating weanlings, 30-45g

Adults over 1200g eating small smalls, 45-65g

Right?

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are you talking about rats or mice?

Hi,


He is talking about rats in this case.


dr del

i was gonna say... pinkie mice to 300g balls hummmmm.

Okay let's do a little rat stages of life thing LOL....

Rats are born as "pinks"....this is the stage when they have no hair, their eyes are shut and their ears are tight to the head....they depend totally on the female rat for her milk and for life...these are newborn pinkie rats...
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...es13of18-1.jpg

At around day 8 of life they start to develop their first coat, a tight to the body, satin looking coat and are referred to as "fuzzies"....their eyes are still closed, their ears are tight to the skull...they still only take in mother's milk for nutrition...these are fuzzy rats...
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...of11Sept06.jpg

About day 15 they become "pups", their eyes open, their ears become erect and they develop a full coat of fur.....they will start to follow mother rat to her food bowl and try her water bottle (usually by day 20 or so, some try earlier)...they still need to nurse however....this is a young rat pup whose eyes have just opened....
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...escutebaby.jpg

As they approach weaning at about 4 or 5 weeks of age (some wean as early as 3.5 weeks) they become quite large pups, as soon as they are weaned they are "weanlings" or "wean rats".....here is a picture of a litter that I weaned off their mother just after this picture was taken so this is basically a group of nice wean rats....notice how much they grow during the pup stage...at this stage they no longer need their mother's milk but will continue to bother her for nursing...they really need to be independent and seperated by gender no later than 5 weeks of age.....
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...itterMar07.jpg

This is another example of a recently weaned rat...
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...Lightning1.jpg

Same male rat a couple of weeks later when he is big enough to be no longer considered a weanling rat...
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...Lightning2.jpg

Example to show size differences...the right on the left is a breeding size female...I would call her a medium in size....to the right is a younger female, not yet to breeding size, a big small if you like as far as size....
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...s/HCandJet.jpg

Another example, an adult male rat with his male offspring who is a small in these photo's (smaller than that black female rat pictured above)...
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...Supernova2.jpg

Here is a link to www.rodentpro.com Check them for exact lengths and weights on each developmental stage of both mice and rats.

Here's a handy comparison size chart for mice and rats....
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2.../sizechart.jpg

great post Jo!

:gj:

Awesome - thanks a lot for that.

Ok, well today was feeding day. I've got a new girl who's still feeling things out, and has refused to take a frozen rat to this point. Today I thought I'd try something different, so I went and bought her some live prey. I got the smallest small the pet store had, but it was still quite a bit larger than the frozen smalls I have. Well, she wasn't interested much at all. She sniffed around, and lost interest. After she made a couple adventurous attempts to leave her tub (and having to put the rat back in after escaping 3 times) I decided she'd had enough, so I put the lid back on and put her away.

So, now I've got a large-ish small rat and no place to keep him.

Well, I hadn't fed my smaller girl yet, so I thought, "what the heck, maybe she'll kill him so I won't have to. Got her tub out, dropped the rat in, literally the instant he hit the floor she struck. Clean hit, grabbed him right by the side of his head. 2 minutes later, after very little struggle, he was dead, and she was on her way to eating him. Let me just say WOW. There's nothing in the world like watching a snake eat prey that looks like it's way too big for them to get down. She took it down with ease, though, and seemed like she was looking for more! Well, I didn't oblige, I knew she'd had her fill, so I put the lid back on and put her away too.

So, let me just say, thank you Sugar for not making me kill that rat! lol