my first post w/pics.. DUW

can you help me identify them? did i get ripped off, the male is a "fancy" and female is an "orange reduced patter" ... is that accurate? what are your opinions? i think they are nice looking and we love them both! they are both really friendly.. the male is a bit of a picky eater but otherwise nice.
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g3...5/IMG_7797.jpg
thats caution..
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g3/nrok665/7-22.jpg
½ decent one of savanna... at least it shows how rich her color is
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g3...5/IMG_7783.jpg
can see size & color difference better, makes caution look darker though

so? just normal balls?

Fancy and orange reduced are just descriptions of nice normals. If it's a look that someone likes, they may be willing to pay a little more for them. But are they morphs? No.


It looks like you're housing them together? If so, you need to get them each set up in their own enclosures, they should never be housed together.

Your male's eating problems may well be a symptom of stress from being forced to share the same space with the female.

the male ate today.. we introduced him yesterday and im sure the move home and then trying to feed was stressful itself. he ate fine today though. we were advised by the breeder they could be kept together and they seem to do very well. this mornign as a matter of fact the female was resting her head on the male and their bodys were wrapped around each other. why in your opinion cant they be kept together? they are sharing a 20gal tank.. they are both little babys (not more than 2ft i dont think)

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Originally Posted by AshleyB

this mornign as a matter of fact the female was resting her head on the male and their bodys were wrapped around each other. why in your opinion cant they be kept together?

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They aren't cuddling. Sounds like the female is dominating your male for the best perceived spot in the enclosure. If she keeps following him everywhere - she is dominating him. There's always a winner and a loser. And the loser will be stressed out. You may not see it now, but you'll likely see it later. Stress reduces the immune system. One sick snake = two sick snakes = 2 vet bills = 2 x medication.

Although rare, cannibalism has occured with two ball pythons housed together.

You won't find many people here that support housing more than one snake per enclosure. If you really want to read an interesting discussion on the topic, this is a good read:

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=23890

They are very good looking snakes!

I think Robin's advice is excellent, they should be housed seperately. :)

thanks for your pov :) what i dont understand is the breeder made a nice amount on us (new set-up, snakes xs2, exc) he knew money wasnt an issue (he couldve made even more if he suggested us keep them apart) why wouldnt he have suggested us keeping them apart when i specifically asked if they could be housed together (his exact words "they will be fine together, the set up they are in now will last them about two years") they even house their older balls together there (i saw those for myself).

she doesnt follow him around, in fact right now they arent even near each other right this moment, hes under the uvb light and shes in a hide box under heat lamp. ((shrugs)) last night he was in hide box and she was ontop of it just hanging out. Is it possible that they can be kept together? here is the first time ive ever heard of them not being together being not such a great idea.. weve had snakes on and off for about 5yrs, my husband for 10

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Originally Posted by AshleyB

why in your opinion cant they be kept together? they are sharing a 20gal tank.. they are both little babys (not more than 2ft i dont think)

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You need to seperate them BP are solitary animals and should not be housed together.

There is absolutely no benefit in housing multiple snakes together.

Possible problems range from going of feed, spreading of diseases , premature breeding, serious injuries, even the possibilities of cannibalism due to stress as shown here (Warning Graphic Pics)
Pic 1 - Pic 2 - Pic 3

oh wow.. how sad!


as a side note, they are NOT fed together.. they are NOT ever even fed in their enclosure.

All I can say is read the link that I provided. Note the results of the poll, that speaks volumes to me. Then read the posts. Some of the contributors to the thread have been keeping ball pythons for 25 years. Make up your mind after reading the thread.


Since money is no object, hopefully once you read the thread, you'll see that it really is the best thing to separate them. They neither need, nor desire companionship.

What is your plan, should your male impregnate your female before she's old enough to successfully carry the eggs and becomes egg bound? It is a very likely scenario. What if she does successfully lay a good clutch? Are you prepared to incubate and house the babies until you find a good home for them?

Just some other things to think about.

thank you very much for your input.. im currently reading the thread you posted.

The "cuddling" you're seeing Ashley isn't cuddling as perceived by our human standards, it's a way snake's dominate each other for available space, heat sources, access to food, water and cover to hide in. Ball pythons are by their very nature solitary creatures coming together usually only to mate when mature once per year.

Some of the issues of communal housing are...

- you cannot properly track which snake is defeciating, passing urates, etc. so if you get a runny stool you won't know who passed it or even if someone isn't passing stool when it's likely they should be

- disease transmission including the spreading of parasites - since both snakes are in close contact with each other feces and so forth, anything one snake has the other will get, this results in two sick snakes, twice the worry and twice the vet bills

- there have been documented incidences of cannabalism in ball pythons

- accidental breeding or breeding of your female at far too young an age - the male will mature quickly, she will not - bearing eggs too young can stress her up to and including causing her early death due to stress or the inability to pass her eggs

- feeding accidents/bites to the cage mate - feeding snakes can be highly reactive even after they are fed (they stay in hunt mode for quite awhile), this can result in an attack on the other snake in the enclosure, due to this hyper hunting state or the smell of prey being on one snake

- no experienced breeder I know recommends the long term communal housing of ball pythons, they might be kept like that for a short time after they hatch while they are awaiting their first feed and shed but most breeders seperate them thereafter

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AshleyB

thanks for your pov :) what i dont understand is the breeder made a nice amount on us (new set-up, snakes xs2, exc) he knew money wasnt an issue (he couldve made even more if he suggested us keep them apart) why wouldnt he have suggested us keeping them apart when i specifically asked if they could be housed together (his exact words "they will be fine together, the set up they are in now will last them about two years") they even house their older balls together there (i saw those for myself).

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Someone keeping their BP together and having offsprings is not comparable to what I call a breeder.

A reputable breeder would never recommend such a bad husbandry practice.

He likely saw the opportunity to sell 2 animals instead of one since if in many cases if you tell people to house them individually they will think twice and only buy one.

this wasnt a backyard breeder hes been at the location i went to since 95' hes had snakes ALOT longer than that, we had lightly discussed breeding later on (not that its going to be for a profit or anything else like that since they arent anything special).. the snakes we got were not from the same clutch either. im going to call there tomorrow and have a few words about what ive read.. :mad:

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Snake are like potato chips, you can't stop with just one... At least I couldn't. Once you do get another snake you need to quarantine× it from your other snake(s) for a couple of months. The new snake may be diseased or parasitized and you wouldn't want it to infect your healthy animals. Once you quarantine, it's OK to put snakes in the same cage assuming: they are of the same species (Ball Python, Python regius), they are similar sized, and the cage provides ample room and hide boxes. I strongly caution against putting other types of snake together in the same cage. Other species snakes may have care requirements and different types of disease/infection that your Ball Python's immune system cannot handle. You will want to separate them at feeding time. And you may notice that they will not eat unless housed individually.

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i had read that in mor ethan one place too!

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Originally Posted by AshleyB

Snake are like potato chips, you can't stop with just one... At least I couldn't. Once you do get another snake you need to quarantine× it from your other snake(s) for a couple of months. The new snake may be diseased or parasitized and you wouldn't want it to infect your healthy animals. Once you quarantine, it's OK to put snakes in the same cage assuming: they are of the same species (Ball Python, Python regius), they are similar sized, and the cage provides ample room and hide boxes. I strongly caution against putting other types of snake together in the same cage. Other species snakes may have care requirements and different types of disease/infection that your Ball Python's immune system cannot handle. You will want to separate them at feeding time. And you may notice that they will not eat unless housed individually.

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Everything that person wrote advocating housing together was negated by their very last sentence.

If that thread doesn't convince you, I'm not sure that you can be convinced.

Posted by Kara of NERD - one of the largest, most respected ball python breeders in the country:


http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...5&postcount=16

Kevin is the other half of NERD and wrote:
The Complete Ball Python

Posted by Adam of 8BallPythons - over 25 years of keeping ball pythons, also a very well respected breeder:

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...57&postcount=8

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...4&postcount=11

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Originally Posted by AshleyB

hes under the uvb light and shes in a hide box under heat lamp

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Also, I'm not sure if anyone caught this, but snakes don't need a UVB lamp either. They have no use for it... they're primarily nocturnal animals, so what little sunlight they get through a cage has all the UVB they need.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AshleyB

as a side note, they are NOT fed together.. they are NOT ever even fed in their enclosure.

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Just wanted to note this one little thing too... I think maybe the breeder told you they'll mistake your hand for food if you feed in the tank, but it's not true. They don't have to be fed in a separate enclosure.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by darkangel

Just wanted to note this one little thing too... I think maybe the breeder told you they'll mistake your hand for food if you feed in the tank, but it's not true. They don't have to be fed in a separate enclosure.

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If housed individually. I wouldn't recommend feeding them in their own enclosure if they are together.

the breeder let us know that the uvb light may help with shedding. i too questioned the need but got it anyway. i feed them in seperate containers because ive been told it makes for a nicer snake and we can verify who eats and what size. Again i plan to read more on the links that were listed, thanks again!

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the breeder let us know that the uvb light may help with shedding.

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To help with shedding you must provide proper humidity of 50%-60% at all time and raise it to 70% during shedding if you think it is necessary.

UVB are not needed, not sure you this "breeder" is, but he does not seems to know much about proper husbandry from what I have read so far.

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because ive been told it makes for a nicer snake

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Snakes fed in their enclosure are as "Nice" than the ones who are not, feeding in their enclosure allows to reduce the stress as they ambush their prey on a familiar ground from the security of their hides. (I have 16 and all are fed in their enclosure)

I know there's this old school thing about if you feed in the enclosure, your snake will start to think you are dinner and go after your hand. Think about this logically though....

if you feed outside the home enclosure, your hand is coming in there to move a hungry snake right? then later it's coming into the feeding tub to move a just finished hunting snake back into it's home enclosure...right?

So why wouldn't that become a trigger for your snake to strike at your hand everytime it sees it?

The fact is snakes know what prey is and what it isn't and your hand is in that enclosure all the time for a variety of reasons. Does that mean your snake is never going to strike at you, hiss, jab, slither away or just plain hide from you. Of course not, it's a snake and will do any of those things for whatever reason it's instinct says to do at that particular moment of it's existance.

You can have a perfectly laid back snake suddenly turn and take a swing at you. It happens and it's no big deal. It's just a snake being a snake. They aren't "nice", they are snakes. Most of the time if you get nipped, it's something you did to trigger that behaviour or something in their environment you haven't dealt with as a keeper to lower their stress level in captivity. Or it's just that you got nipped, and again...just something that comes with having a snake in your life. Feeding in or out of their home enclosure doesn't promote bites but it is often proven to allow the snake to feel the most secure it can feel...and secure snakes eat better.

Just curious? What's the name of this breeder? I've never heard a reputable ball python breeder recommend housing ball pythons together or uvb light to aid in shedding.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AshleyB

i feed them in seperate containers because ive been told it makes for a nicer snake and we can verify who eats and what size. Again i plan to read more on the links that were listed, thanks again!

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Glad to hear you're going to keep reading!

I've got sixteen ball pythons, all housed individually, and all fed in their own enclosures. I've never once been mistaken for food, or struck at as a result of them associating their home with food. All of my kiddos I'd describe as pretty laid back (or nice).

The place is called east coast reptiles, they have been in buisness since 95' the owner whos name i want to withold simply because i dont have his permission to release it is the person who suggested it. :sunny:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AshleyB

The place is called east coast reptiles, they have been in buisness since 95' the owner whos name i want to withold simply because i dont have his permission to release it is the person who suggested it. :sunny:

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Wouldn't the owner be a matter of public record? I can't imagine a breeder who's been in the business as long as he says he has would want to keep his name secret?

Edit - is it Jason Campbell (who also uses the alias Jason William or Williams) and Lisa Campbell of this East Coast Reptiles?

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...94&page=1&pp=5

If so, more fun stuff of his selling het spiders and het pastels (there is no such thing) a few years ago and he was outed as a scammer. It mentions his business as East Coast Reptiles on post #125

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...Coast+Reptiles

That would explain the poor advice of housing together and using UVB light to aid in shedding.

Unfortunately, just because a person owns a business and makes money at it doesn't necessarily mean they're reputable. It just means they're willing to say anything to make a buck---without considering the welfare of the animal or person involved. And they prey on the people that don't know any better---who think they're getting good information and are doing what is right.

There is a place in Columbus, Ohio like this. When I first started going in there, I soaked up every bit of information I could. But the more I read, and the more I started talking to people on various forums, the more I realized the store owner was simply spouting stuff to make a sale to people who really didn't know any better. I can't go in there anymore, even for frozen feeders---it makes my stomach queasy.

You know, it's interesting---they didn't try to sell you two set-ups (something that might have lost them the sale of a second snake), but they did manage to squeeze extra money out of you for the very unnecessary UVB light... which I'm sure wasn't cheap.

BTW, this is just me ranting... I'm actually a very nice person :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Wouldn't the owner be a matter of public record? I can't imagine a breeder who's been in the business as long as he says he has would want to keep his name secret?

Edit - is it Jason Campbell (who also uses the alias Jason William or Williams) and Lisa Campbell of this East Coast Reptiles?

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...94&page=1&pp=5

If so, more fun stuff of his selling het spiders and het pastels (there is no such thing) a few years ago and he was outed as a scammer. It mentions his business as East Coast Reptiles on post #125

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...Coast+Reptiles

That would explain the poor advice of housing together and using UVB light to aid in shedding.

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WOW. :eek: I really hope that is not the same guy you bought from.

no, its not. and if it is public record great you look it up, i do know for a fact they have been in buisness at that location since 95 and that is not the owners first or last name.. infact its not even close. im not giving out information without permission, i know better than that. just like i wont publically post pictures of someone else's children on my website without their permission even though it would help me "make a buck".

im very saddened that one of my first posts resulted in so much negative attention.. we kept columbian babys together for many months several years ago just fine, not knowing they couldn't be together. I hope this was a sore subject of posts and that perhaps i can get a start off on a better foot than this.

As for my ball babys, I spoke with my exotic vet down here and asked her opinion on the subject, in addition to reading lots of material, suggested here and otherwise and for that i thank you. I do plan to get them apart soon, someday i would like to breed (even though they are just "normals") not today or even two years from now but someday.. i want healthy snakes as well. Today I plan to go to the petco nearby and pick the male up an enclosure.

Another question, we live in south florida (hot) in a condo on the third floor. we have a screened in balcony, my question is.. im having a tough time keeping their temps regulated as our home (obviously) is kept very cool, especially at night, sometimes dropping into upper 60s thanks to my husband who insists on keeping it FREEZING. can I keep them each in a 20gal on one of those iron stands on the balcony? Its not like bugs could really get up there (not that it isnt impossible but ive never even seen an ant up there and i work for a pest control company so i would know what to look for) the temps would be more normal, low 90s during day (although the patio is covered so its cooler out there) and high 70s at night.. from what ive read thats more ideal.. can they be kept outside? a stand in our home with a tank that close to the floor isnt feisable as we have small children who will either torment the snakes or pull the damn stand right over on top of them. please dont flame me.. im really asking for the best intrest of everyone involved, especially savanna and caution

Sounds like the "breeder" is just some wham bam pet store guy. UV lighting? sound like he wants to sell light fixtures. Multiple snakes in enclosure? sell more snakes.

they couldve made ALOT more though getting us to buy a second set-up.. the "kit" we purchased for savanna as we knew a tall 30gal wasnt fit for her.. so we figured start over and fresh and get something that had everything, the uvb bulb and lamp were part of it.. the light fixtures we had were old and the bulbs had been thrown out 3yrs ago. he knew i would be coming back for the male as a surprise for my husband.. when i went to pick him up i asked him and as i said previously spoke to him about keeping them together and if she would hurt him, visa versa, exc. its very frustrating :mad:

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Originally Posted by AshleyB

im very saddened that one of my first posts resulted in so much negative attention.. we kept columbian babys together for many months several years ago just fine, not knowing they couldn't be together. I hope this was a sore subject of posts and that perhaps i can get a start off on a better foot than this.

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It is a bit of a sore subject. So many people come in here and argue that they were told it's all right to house their babies together. And even after we point them in the right direction---and give them source after source---they tell us we're the ones that are wrong and don't change.

Do not doubt... almost everyone here wants to health of the animal first and foremost. We just want to help---and sometimes get rather passionate about it.

Hey, by the way... WELCOME TO THE FORUMS! :hug:

In my opinion, the temps are something that need to be tightly controlled, not "somewhere in the 90's" or "in the high 70's" (which is too low anyway!).

I'm seriously wondering why you won't tell anyone the name of your breeder. If I ever sell a snake, I would have no problem with my name being released as the seller, and I have no problem telling anyone where each of my snakes came from. There is no "right to privacy" after a sale.

I totally understand the passion and good intentions,there are a few things that im knowledable about and very passionate, however a few things did more or less come on strong, especially concidering i dont feel as though i argued the fact, i was really whole heartedly asking opinion as i too have my snakes best intrest at heart. thanks for the welcome. :)

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Originally Posted by SarahMB

In my opinion, the temps are something that need to be tightly controlled, not "somewhere in the 90's" or "in the high 70's" (which is too low anyway!).

I'm seriously wondering why you won't tell anyone the name of your breeder. If I ever sell a snake, I would have no problem with my name being released as the seller, and I have no problem telling anyone where each of my snakes came from. There is no "right to privacy" after a sale.

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ok can we please leave this one alone then.. i am choosing to not release his name. ive give the place of purchase and to me thats enough, he may not care but its my prefrance and explained my reasoning already.

im asking, is it dangerous to their health to have them outside? the temps are FAR WARMER outside then inside, i could and would put a midnight heat lamp on them at night if nessesary to keep them warm enough. and somewhere is what it is down here.. during the summer its usually about 95 outside at high heat, high 80s low 90s during the rest of the day. i could get temp gages to put in their enclosures as well to more closely watch. At this point im wondering if they would be better off outside at this point concidering the temps. please lets leave the breeder/seller/"pet store" owner/ whatever you choose to call him alone.

I know it's hard to get conflicting information. The knowledge I walked out of PetCo with after the purchase of my first snake... was... worthless. After coming here, I basically learned that everything was pretty much opposite. They told me to drop the temperatures at night (don't!), they told me to feed in a separate enclosure (unneccessary!), and that 2 snakes of similar size can be housed together (no!).

I was extremely frustrated at first, but ultimately so happy that I could find this forum and learn from true hobbyists and breeders the right things to do, and WHY.

Oh, and I personally would NOT keep them outside. There's too much room for huge temperature fluctuations. Get an under tank heating pad and get the temps up properly, with the enclosures in the house.

I don't think anyone's pointed in the direction of the caresheet here:

http://ball-pythons.net/modules.php?...warticle&id=59

Temps and humidity need to be carefully monitored. An Accurite thermometer (found at your local Wal-mart) will do the trick for both, and it's fairly cheap. A little temp variation won't hurt anything---it does get a little cooler at night---but try to keep the temps as steady as possible. (Is it a red heat light? You can use a red light all day and all night because they don't pick up the red... it won't bother them).

Putting the kids outside, it'll be too hard to keep their temps steady... and hard on the humidity, too. Too much moisture can be just as bad as not enough for BPs. They can develop skin problems or a respiratory infection (not fun!). Also, heat lamps suck out humidity... so you may have to cover part of the tank with a damp towel, or switch out the lamp for an undertank heater to keep the humidity steady.

Yes, it is very dangerous to a snake's health to let it's temps fluctuate with little control. It's something that you need to know without a doubt, not check on when it comes to mind.

UGH, at this point it would be easier to just have one grrrr :mad: I cannot believe we have gotten into this mess, not even a week into having him. guess ill be picking up TWO red bulbs and another entire set up for caution.. damn good thing i like him! i have NO CLUE where were going to put a second tank without kicking them outside.

IM ASKING INNOCENTLY, PLEASE NO FLAMING:
why cant they be outside if thats kinda where they would be living anyway? I would still maintain their heat at night. so long as i use a dry (not like those blocks you get wet) bedding wouldn't that help keep the humidity down? i know it would be WAY TOO HOT with the more wet bedding. someone please help.. i printed those care sheets and will read when i get off work which is where i am now. i also do plan to get the thermometers as well so i can at least moniter them. the children would be older by the time winter rolls around and we could keep them indoors for our "winter"

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Originally Posted by AshleyB

Why cant they be outside if thats kinda where they would be living anyway?

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Because you don't live in Africa near a termite mound. :D

Ok one HUGE reason would be... You can monitor and control the temperature of a heat source, however you cannot do the same for the sun. You could easily have a hot day and cook the snakes. You're in Florida, I know how the heat can be - I live in SC and it's even more hot and humid where you are.

Since you need to get another set up, why don't you take a look at using a tub instead. It's a lot more convenient. Are you just using a lamp? IMO the under tank heaters work much better, I'm sure you could get the enclosure up to temperature, even in the cooler house.

If they were wild (which they're not now that they're being kept in a cage) they would be living in Africa---which is a completely different biosphere compared to south florida. A snake in the wild can leave an area it's uncomfortable in---most wild ball pythons spend a huge quantity of time in underground burrows where it's cooler and keeps more moisture than the air. If a burrow doesn't provide them what they need, they can move to another.

In captivity, they can't go anywhere. We have to provide the perfect environment for them because they can't go find it themselves. Once you put an animal in a cage, you take on the responsibility of making that cage as close to perfect as possible. Putting them outside exposes them to all kinds of fluctuations in temp and humidity---things they wouldn't even be exposed to in their natural setting.

EDIT: Good call on the tub idea, Amy!!! If you don't want to spend a whole bundle of money on another cage, grab a plastic tub or two. They're small, convenient (cleaning and otherwise) and you can really put them anywhere!

what is a tub? isnt that tacky? can you even see the snakes through them? wouldnt UTH melt the plastic? can we maybe post a link or pics of what to look for? i plan to go today to get it..as for the UTH they would be easier in the sense one less thing to fall off the enclosure, but again we run into the problem of our sons pulling the enclosure over unless we put it somewhere in the kitchen, at least there they are away from everything... its a thought. would i be better off at that point getting a small for one side of the enclosure? what about using those beast bedding i think they are called.. right now they have some kind of loose almost soft shavings, (seen in the pics)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AshleyB

what is a tub? Like a plastic rubbermaid or sterilite tub isnt that tacky? no can you even see the snakes through them? yeswouldnt UTH melt the plastic? no as for the UTH they would be easier in the sense one less thing to fall off the enclosure, but again we run into the problem of our sons pulling the enclosure over unless we put it somewhere in the kitchen, at least there they are away from everything... its a thought. they stick to the underside, but you really need to keep them away from children anyway if they might tip something over would i be better off at that point getting a small for one side of the enclosure? what about using those beast bedding i think they are called.. right now they have some kind of loose almost soft shavings, (seen in the pics)

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how does the UTH not melt the plastic? its warm/hot? (insert puzzled face) ive been advised to get a thermostat too, lordy lordy if only id known

Tubs are SO easy to maintain, clean, BUY (more $ for the other stuff you need), they hold humidity and temps well. The UTH won't melt the plastic, I promise you, I have 4 snakes in tubs and they work wonderfully. With the UTH, you connect it to a rheostat or thermostat, and you can then control the temperature in the tub. It sounds like a lot of stuff to buy, but when you take the expense of a glass tank out of the equation, it's not bad.

I wish I had a picture of my tub setup to show you.

Rubbermaid... a flat tub as opposed to a taller one. They don't need the height. And, yeah, you can't really see through them, but the advantage is, nor can the snakes. So you don't have to buy hides, and they feel more secure... like they're in their own little burrow.


Also, try aspen or carefresh (which comes in multiple colors) if you want something to look nice. Newspaper if you want economical and easy.

EDIT: Here's a pic of my old rack set-up... these are about the same size tubs as the under-bed tubs. And if you get a good thermostat, the UTH's ill never get hot enough to melt the plastic.

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c2...g/000_0175.jpg

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c2...g/000_0171.jpg

OK i suppose i need to know what size "tub" i need... dang, almost takes the fun out of having them to keep them in the kitchen :( can they more or less be stacked or must they be side/side? can you post pictures of your enclosures? what about lids, do you just poke holes in them? wth do i do with this big a$$ 20gal then? i would almost feel as though im playing favorites if i leave one in a nice glass and one in a bin. i dont need the lamps then if i have just UTH? do you use the little sticky "legs" that come with the UTH on the bins?

WOW, They look so small!! the baby boy likes climbing :( what about using fake leaves/sticks/hides/exc.. not nessesary? dang just like starting over! im going to call the store today and see if i can exchange the big ass tank for supplies or something, i can at least get some money back for that huge tank we have! did you build your stand? can i stack them maybe seperating the bins with books between them for the time being? until i can find such a stand lol

They're not really arboreal. Once they're settled in, they probably will spend 90% of their time in a hide, not doing much of anything.

You could probably stack them, but you may want something to separate them to keep one tub from overheating with the heat from the other.