"Dwarf Retics"

I was just curious- is there really 'dwarf retics'? Ive heard of them, but Im not sure because some people just say that.. Like 'teacup chihuahuas', theres reallt no such thing, its just a little bit smaller then a 'reagular' one.. So is it like that with the retics, or is it real? If there are, how big do they normally get?

I asked Brian Sharp about this, he said that "Dwarf Retics" are really nothing more than a specific bloodline related to the smaller groups of retics that reside on some of the smaller island chains in their native range. Basically, these particular snakes have gotten smaller through the eons just because of a lower supply of food.

He mentioned that these individuals are relatively rare in the pet trade, as compared to the so called "dwarf" retics that you see for sale at shows everyday - basically, ill-informed people have treated the "dwarf" thing like a separate gene and crossed them with normal, non-dwarf retics. What you have now are the offspring of these crosses, so called "dwarfs", that still grow 10'+, and adding to the confusion on the whole thing.

wouldnt a 10'+( and in + a couple or 20'?) snake be considered a dwarf compaired to a 33'( im not stating that all are 33' FYI) normal adult? if you compair a 20' adult retic to a 10' adult dwarf retic i would call it a dwarf because its half the size and adult. dwarf humans are 3+ feet tall so if a 3' adult dwarf human stood next to a 6' adult human would that be about the same...sorry 1000 thought going through my head at once trying to think about it

Alright, thanks. I was wondering because I LOVE the reticulated python, its by far probably my favorite snake!! But even though I dont have any kids myself, their over alot, and by the time their old enough to 'stay away', I probably will have my own kid, so a 20ft snake is NOT a good idea!! But maybe in a few years if I can find a good breeder, who knows? Thats a very high possibility!!

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Originally Posted by NickMyers03

wouldnt a 10'+( and in + a couple or 20'?) snake be considered a dwarf compaired to a 33'( im not stating that all are 33' FYI) normal adult? if you compair a 20' adult retic to a 10' adult dwarf retic i would call it a dwarf because its half the size and adult. dwarf humans are 3+ feet tall so if a 3' adult dwarf human stood next to a 6' adult human would that be about the same...sorry 1000 thought going through my head at once trying to think about it

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You can't call it a dwarf just because its smaller...there's more to it...its a locale...as soon as you outcross it, you lose the purity of the bloodline, and you get a bunch of confused keepers whose "dwarf retic" grows up to 15'.

According to him, 10' for a true female dwarf retic would be considered very large.

ok so for the true bloodline of the snake the father and mother both have to be dwarfs. so when people are selling things like albino purple phase dwarf retic this is not a true dwarf? this sucks then becasue i was looking into them. i know a few breeders that produce albino purplephase and love the way they look i just wont be able to handle the size

Here's an excerpt from Bob Clark's article in Reptiles Magazine on Dwarf Retics:

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Dwarf Retics

In the last few years, reticulated pythons have become available from populations where the average adult size is much smaller than the snakes with which hobbyists are most familiar.

Retics from some Indonesian islands may reach only 8 to 10 feet, with females attaining maturity at about 6 feet (even less for males). The retics said to originate from the localities of Jampea and Kayuadi are such animals. I've seen wild, imported female retics from these localities that were gravid, only 6 feet long and weighed only 5 pounds.

These smaller snakes are the result of the forces of natural selection in their particular environment. Genetically, they seem to lack the potential to reach large sizes. These smaller retics are becoming very popular. The imported animals are, for the most part, not aggressive. Several breeding groups of dwarf retics have become established in this country and the demand for them is very high.

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Originally Posted by NickMyers03

ok so for the true bloodline of the snake the father and mother both have to be dwarfs. so when people are selling things like albino purple phase dwarf retic this is not a true dwarf? this sucks then becasue i was looking into them. i know a few breeders that produce albino purplephase and love the way they look i just wont be able to handle the size

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The albino purple-phase will be a cross between a dwarf and a normal. Therefore, it will have the genetics from both parents and won't be a pure dwarf. If it is then bred to a dwarf for generations, you will eventually get what will be close to a pure dwarf albino.

I don't think there is any question that true dwarf reticulateds exist. Not only do they hit sexual maturity at very small sizes, but they grow much slower than full-size retics, and are born MUCH smaller. Another theory that I've been looking into about the dwarfs, is that the prey items they have available to feed on (on these isolated islands), are much smaller than what the full-size retic locales have. And this is contributing to their evolution to smaller overall sizes... (If they grew too large, they wouldn't have adequate prey to feed on)...

I think the most important thing is to get one from a reputable breeder. That's the only sure way to know you're getting a purebred dwarf of whatever locale you're purchasing.

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Originally Posted by _BoidFinatic_

The albino purple-phase will be a cross between a dwarf and a normal. Therefore, it will have the genetics from both parents and won't be a pure dwarf. If it is then bred to a dwarf for generations, you will eventually get what will be close to a pure dwarf albino.

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I have to say, I've never heard of the purple phase albino being a cross between a normal and a dwarf? Where did you find that information? Purple-phase albinos are just part of the Clark strain albinos (Type 1 albinos). There are however a lot of crosses going on between the dwarfs and/or normal-sized retics, and I don't see a problem with this as long as they are labeled for what they are (50% jampea/50% normal) or (50% superdwarf, 25% jampea, 25% normal)...

I personally have three 50% jampeas/50% normals, and I'll be picking up a 50% superdwarf/25% jampea/25% normal in the next couple weeks. They are much smaller than my full-size tics, and even though fed the same diets, they aren't growing as quickly... And my male 50% jamp was producing sperm at 6 ft...

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Originally Posted by Blake_Herman

There are however a lot of crosses going on between the dwarfs and/or normal-sized retics,

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That is what I was assuming he had found.

Here's a pic of one of my May '06 female 50% jamps/50% normal that was produced by Jason Reed. Now keep in mind that jamps are one of the larger dwarf locales. Obviously she's a little chunky, she eats great. But she's only about 5-6 ft and is now 14 months old. You can see my fingers in the picture for a size reference...

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...edusa71507.jpg

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Originally Posted by _BoidFinatic_

That is what I was assuming he had found.

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I'm still kind of confused about what you were saying about the purple phase albino, maybe you want to clarify a little more (for me and everyone else)...? Thanks...

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Originally Posted by Blake_Herman

I'm still kind of confused about what you were saying about the purple phase albino, maybe you want to clarify a little more (for me and everyone else)...? Thanks...

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I was referring to this:

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Originally Posted by NickMyers03

ok so for the true bloodline of the snake the father and mother both have to be dwarfs. so when people are selling things like albino purple phase dwarf retic this is not a true dwarf? this sucks then becasue i was looking into them. i know a few breeders that produce albino purplephase and love the way they look i just wont be able to handle the size

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okay, my bad, I was skimming through the quote but I missed part of what it was saying... I understand what you meant now...

the problem is that none of the current morphs or mutations exist within the dwarf locales (except the fire superdwarfs). So the only way to start to bring those in is to cross them. And it does make for smaller retics, but in most people's opinions, they aren't true "dwarfs". As someone stated before, a 10' full size retic is small for a reticulated, so in my opinion that is still "dwarf"... I just think it's critical to be able to keep track of what genetics are going into things...

I have a perfect example though, my dwarf super tiger is only 50% dwarf. Because that's as close as we can get at this point in time... But you can VERY easily tell all of the dwarf influence that he has within him, and he is noticeably smaller... he's the one I was referring to in one of my other posts about producing sperm at 6 ft...

As most of you know, super tigers are yellow, and they have yellow/orange eyes... the "dwarf influence" i was talking about in my dwarf super not only is talking about his small size, but also that he took the silver/green body coloration from the jampea locale, and then also the silver eyes...
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...tiger27107.jpg

compared to my normal super tiger...
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...tiger17107.jpg

Yeah...that difference is quite noticeable, at least to the non-colorblind. And you're right, we need to keep track of the genetics. If you are going to purchase something that is 50% super dwarf, 25% dwarf, and 25% normal...you got to trust the breeder. I also believe that even a 13', well fed, 7 year old female "dwarf" retic can and should be sold as such.


Oh and Blake, is your bhutan yellowhead going to get just as large as other mainland tics?

Here's an excerpt from Bob Clark's article in Reptiles Magazine on Dwarf Retics:





Quote:
Dwarf Retics

In the last few years, reticulated pythons have become available from populations where the average adult size is much smaller than the snakes with which hobbyists are most familiar.

Retics from some Indonesian islands may reach only 8 to 10 feet, with females attaining maturity at about 6 feet (even less for males). The retics said to originate from the localities of Jampea and Kayuadi are such animals. I've seen wild, imported female retics from these localities that were gravid, only 6 feet long and weighed only 5 pounds.

These smaller snakes are the result of the forces of natural selection in their particular environment. Genetically, they seem to lack the potential to reach large sizes. These smaller retics are becoming very popular. The imported animals are, for the most part, not aggressive. Several breeding groups of dwarf retics have become established in this country and the demand for them is very high.



A local breeder (Portland) was selling some of the Jampeas. That's what Kaa was....a Jampea dwarf retic. That's why I bought him. I wanted the retic w/o the wonking huge length (at this time). He was an '05 import, and about 5.5-6'. That's all he was expected to reach. Figured he'd eventually get bigger around the girth, but since he a casulty, I'll have to wait until I can get another to see how it all pans out.

I've got some other plans in place, but I'll be replacing him eventually...prob. w/in the next year (or less).

Jampeas are actually one of the larger "dwarfs". I have personally seen a 14 ft. female.

If you really want to look for a smaller retic, look for Kayaduai or superdwarfs.
The genetic stripe is also a "dwarf". The largest female is right at 10 ft.

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Originally Posted by _BoidFinatic_

Oh and Blake, is your bhutan yellowhead going to get just as large as other mainland tics?

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yes, it's from an island located about 20 miles from sulawesi, and from what I've been reading, they are expected to be one of the larger locales of retics... being wild-caught, we don't know how old our butan is, but he was imported into the US late in '06, so he seems kind of small for what his likely age is, but he's been growing well with us (about 1.5 ft in the past 2 months)... we'll just have to see...

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Originally Posted by MPenn

Jampeas are actually one of the larger "dwarfs". I have personally seen a 14 ft. female.

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The largest I've seen was a 16 ft. jampea female... but that one in particular has been fed pigs, and in my opinion, the snake doesn't have a choice but to keep growing with a diet like that. Where in the wild, jamps wouldn't be eating prey that large... And still, for a MONSTER female, 16 ft is rather small...

And from everything I've seen, the WC jamps are much smaller. And every CB jamp I've personally seen has been larger (that doesn't mean small CB ones don't exist, just not CB ones that I've seen). So IMO, this backs up my theory of the prey size having such a huge influence on adult size.

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Originally Posted by MPenn

If you really want to look for a smaller retic, look for Kayaduai or superdwarfs.
The genetic stripe is also a "dwarf". The largest female is right at 10 ft.

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Good point bringing in the genetic stripe. I'm a little confused though about one thing. Do full-size het genetic stripes still produce a dwarf retic? Or do the het g-stripe's always have dwarf features (small size, etc)? Does the full-size het parents influence the genetic stripe offspring's size? I'm picking up a genetic stripe in a couple weeks, but it was produced from two WC g-stripes that are both clearly proven dwarfs... I was just curious about how full-size hets affect the mutation...

Hopefully I articulated everything there... ;)