Hets a shaky venture?

Ok as a hobbiest breeder how would a person establish them self enough to be able to sell hets. With all the fake hets flying around and no one really knowing who your are would Hets be a gamble on whether or no you could sell them starting out?

Comment welcome. How could a new comer earn your business if your were in the market for a 100% het "Whatever"

Networking. Getting to be good friends or associates with people already trusted in the business. Then they can vouche for you. Selling to people who already know you (such as the folks on this forum....I'd buy a het from you! ;) ) and then they can also pass along good reports when the hets prove out as advertised.


And of course, there are always people willing to give someone they don't know a chance. Always treat them right as well, and they will also pass the word along.

Building the sort of reputation that allows strangers to buy hets without question takes years of hard work and dedication to the industry and to your customers.

(That's my nickle's worth, anyhow.)

I've done this, not just with hets, but with CH babies, I've gotten references from both Adam and Kara for Will Bird before I made my first purchase with him.


I'd certainly hope that my participation here and people's knowledge of my collection would also assure members here of my credibility when I sell hets. Although my first hets will be 50% possible het clown males, which will sell at close to or at normal male prices.

I agree with Judy. Ed, you're known around here as a good person and it goes right along with what's always said...know the breeder...

I believe that you've made a significant contribution to this site and if you ever had a het that I wanted, I know that I could put good faith in your business. That's true for quite a few members on this forum.

i have done a lot of recently the last month as i start venturing into the world of breeding and morphs. and i came to my own conclusion that hets are a tricky business for what i am going to be doing. i am basically breeding my pet's. i don't plan on making money, and any i do will just go right back into the animals. so picking up some hets would be risky for me because i am looking for more affordable snake, so i am checking out classifieds and talking to small time breeders, and this is where a lot of fake hets come from. so to me it would be a risk just buying a het. with out anything really to tell me it is 100% a het animal i am playing the lottery.

i decided to get a pastel and a spider. both are very noticeable morph, and being co-dominate, i will have morphs in my first clutch (hopefully). since hets have smaller probabilities, i could breed them and get nothing but het animals in the clutch. and this is where the problem you are looking at comes in. how do you sell the extra hets?

unless you are close to another breeder that is looking for some het animals, it would be pretty hard to sell. the only solution i could think would be to sell other animals (start with co-doms) and then start to build up a reputation, and get your name out there. when someone can search you and get a background on you , it will make them feel easier buying het animals from you.

sorry for such a long post, but this same question has floated through my head for sometime. i had an opportunity to pick up a pair of het hypo's for a great price. but this situation, and the fact that there are so many fake hets out there, pointed me towards some nice co-dom morphs.

hope this helps a little. i am looking forward to more replies.

Well not just me but if you were to just see some Joe at a local expo with like %100 het pieds and het clowns and het hypos and so on. What would make you go you know I really need to add a het clown I like that one. Instead of waiting and getting one from Kara or Ralph or Adam.

I like to see the animals that produced the hets... and you have to feel good about it... if I get a single warning flag I walk away.

If you want people to buy hets from you, be transparent. None of this "trust me dude" stuff. :)

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Originally Posted by jkobylka

I like to see the animals that produced the hets... and you have to feel good about it... if I get a single warning flag I walk away.

If you want people to buy hets from you, be transparent. None of this "trust me dude" stuff. :)

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Agreed. I have seen people with hets bring a Homo sib of the hets to display with them so people will know yes I do produce something other than just hets.

Good point

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Originally Posted by nathanledet

I agree with Judy. Ed, you're known around here as a good person and it goes right along with what's always said...know the breeder...

I believe that you've made a significant contribution to this site and if you ever had a het that I wanted, I know that I could put good faith in your business. That's true for quite a few members on this forum.

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Thanks for that vote of confidence. I'm a couple of years away from hets :rolleyes: Well maybe. :D

I've come from the hobbyist level and worked my way up to small scale breeder status over the last 10 years. I've been selling hets for a long time now and have never had a problem selling anything that I've offered for sale ... even before I had a "tiny" rep. The key is to be patient. It just takes time. You have to talk to people, be professional, and show your customers and potential customers "who" you are. Trust is earned not automatic, so get out there and earn it.

You're probably not going to believe me (cause I wouldn't have believed me 10 years ago) but selling hets isn't as hard as you think it is. Finding the right person to buy your hets from is much more difficult. The secret is that there are many more people looking for that "right person" than there are "right people" selling hets. You'll do fine.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I've come from the hobbyist level and worked my way up to small scale breeder status over the last 10 years. I've been selling hets for a long time now and have never had a problem selling anything that I've offered for sale ... even before I had a "tiny" rep. The key is to be patient. It just takes time. You have to talk to people, be professional, and show your customers and potential customers "who" you are. Trust is earned not automatic, so get out there and earn it.

You're probably not going to believe me (cause I wouldn't have believed me 10 years ago) but selling hets isn't as hard as you think it is. Finding the right person to buy your hets from is much more difficult. The secret is that there are many more people looking for that "right person" than there are "right people" selling hets. You'll do fine.

-adam

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Thanks for that. There are several people on here that are showing me how to do it right (Kara, Adam, Tim, Jamie, Joe when he shows up) and great examples of how to do it wrong as well (I want name them). Its just that with all the scammers and shister involved in Balls it seems it would be less easy for a newcomer then years ago.

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Originally Posted by jkobylka

I like to see the animals that produced the hets... and you have to feel good about it... if I get a single warning flag I walk away.

If you want people to buy hets from you, be transparent. None of this "trust me dude" stuff. :)

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I recall a couple years ago seeing a table at the expo in Whites Plains NY and they had het albinos, het pieds, het this, het that.. This was enough to make me keep walking. They could have been perfectly legit, but if I have any doubts, I just keep on walking.

Rick

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Originally Posted by SiscoReptiles

I recall a couple years ago seeing a table at the expo in Whites Plains NY and they had het albinos, het pieds, het this, het that.. This was enough to make me keep walking. They could have been perfectly legit, but if I have any doubts, I just keep on walking.

Rick

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Ok what could that person have done to make you give them the time to earn your business?? And what what made you doubt??

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Joe when he shows up

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Joe typically spends his time prank calling me.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Ok what could that person have done to make you give them the time to earn your business?? And what what made you doubt??

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Ok....if I had a bunch of visual morphs that I'd gotten tons of baby hets from...and wanted to sell the hets at a show....here's what I'd do to earn your trust:

• Bring at least some of the adults for display on the table with their babies.
• Bring pictures of myself holding each of the adult breeders.
• Have available pics of the breeders on their eggs and the eggs hatching...all showing detailed records that I know exactly which baby came from which egg that came from which adults.
• Be patient and willing to talk with you and answer all your questions. As was so well put, I'd be "transparent" about my snakes and my business.

Would it work? I dunno...probably with some. Maybe not with everyone. But then again...no sales program is going to work with everyone anyhow.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Ok what could that person have done to make you give them the time to earn your business?? And what what made you doubt??

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I appologize. In my mind my post was much more clear than it turned out...

I somehow missed the whole sentance...

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they had het albinos, het pieds, het this, het that.. This was enough to make me keep walking.

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Should have read...

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they had het albinos, het pieds, het this, het that.. but not one single morph on their table, not even any photos of the morphs that produced these hets. This was enough to make me keep walking.

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Rick

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Originally Posted by JLC

Ok....if I had a bunch of visual morphs that I'd gotten tons of baby hets from...and wanted to sell the hets at a show....here's what I'd do to earn your trust:

• Bring at least some of the adults for display on the table with their babies.
• Bring pictures of myself holding each of the adult breeders.
• Have available pics of the breeders on their eggs and the eggs hatching...all showing detailed records that I know exactly which baby came from which egg that came from which adults.
• Be patient and willing to talk with you and answer all your questions. As was so well put, I'd be "transparent" about my snakes and my business.

Would it work? I dunno...probably with some. Maybe not with everyone. But then again...no sales program is going to work with everyone anyhow.

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Great ideas. I have no problem talking about me, my snakes or my business so thats a plus. The pics is a great idea as is the adult breeder thing. Thanks.

Again I am still learning and a year away from even thinking about doing a small show. But the more ideas I have to work with the better. :D

And again I want to get input from breeders who have done it and customers who are shopping. I can see what customers look for and what breeders offer that customers don't know their looking for in a breeder.

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Originally Posted by SiscoReptiles

I appologize. In my mind my post was much more clear than it turned out...

Rick

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Ok yea I can see that. Thanks !

Note that at the same Whites Plain expo I purchased 1.1 yellowbellys off another breeder who had adult yellow bellys and hatchling ivory siblings for sale too.


Rick

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Originally Posted by jkobylka

I like to see the animals that produced the hets... and you have to feel good about it... if I get a single warning flag I walk away.

If you want people to buy hets from you, be transparent. None of this "trust me dude" stuff. :)

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Hehehe, speaking of hets! :P

I purchased my het clown male from Justin. I did check him out before hand, asking Adam if he'd heard of him, and he said he knew of him, and that he felt he presented himself as knowledgeable on the forums he'd seen him on.

Since I live somewhat near to Justin, I was also able to visit him and see his collection. You also get "vibes" about people. After no "warning" raised by Adam, seeing Justin's collection in person, and seeing what type of person he was when I met him, I didn't get any "red flags" and had no hesitation in purchasing from him.

I love my Oliver!

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Well not just me but if you were to just see some Joe at a local expo with like %100 het pieds and het clowns and het hypos and so on. What would make you go you know I really need to add a het clown I like that one. Instead of waiting and getting one from Kara or Ralph or Adam.

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If I saw some Joe at a local expo, and hadn't heard of him before, but I was interested, I'd likely get a business card or name and not purchase AT the show. I'd do some research on him/her and then contact them out later if they passed all my "smell" tests and I was still interested in their animals. I would never impulse buy a het at a show from someone I knew nothing about.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

If I saw some Joe at a local expo, and hadn't heard of him before, but I was interested, I'd likely get a business card or name and not purchase AT the show. I'd do some research on him/her and then contact them out later if they passed all my "smell" tests and I was still interested in their animals. I would never impulse buy a het at a show from someone I knew nothing about.

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Fair enough. What kinds of things are in your smell test...for me its an updated (some what that is) website. Pics of their breeding location, and being able to ask about them and not get the "WHO IS THAT" response.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Fair enough. What kinds of things are in your smell test...for me its an updated (some what that is) website. Pics of their breeding location, and being able to ask about them and not get the "WHO IS THAT" response.

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Well, one is something I can't help you with - women's intuition after communicating with someone. If it doesn't feel right, I don't go any further. I ask trusted members here if they've heard of them, I check out the BOI to see if there's any feedback on them. Website says a lot as well, as you mentioned. If there's no feedback on them, and no one has ever heard of them, I probably would pass as well.

Let's take TSE for example. When I first came into the hobby, he had an awesome reputation on the BOI. What didn't pass the "smell" test for me is that he didn't have any pictures of his adult breeders, and you couldn't pick out the animal you were purchasing, he didn't have pictures of them. It set off all sorts of warning bells for me, and it turns out in the end, I was right to trust that "eh, eh - don't do it" voice in my head.

I'll just add a bit to some of this wonderful advice. Just from the perspective of having a table at a small show which might well by our first venture into face to face sales some day (Taylor, MI type thing). I think if you present yourself honestly, professionally, have very good customer service skills, proper business cards and in the end, show you have a true passion for your snakes, the sales will come. Pictures, documentation of your breedings, ID tracking on the morphs/hets, etc. are part of that professionalism I think. Maybe the sale won't come that day but this isn't about fast turnover and dumping inventory (or it shouldn't be).

You can be the most honest person in the world but if your table appears slapped together, your snakes aren't nicely and properly presented, your people skills suck big time and you aren't willing to "talk snakes" then you probably won't do well. Adam taught me something long ago before I ever thought of breeding or selling a snake...that this is about passion but it's also about business. In business, especially this one, you are selling you as much as your snakes so it should be in a nice way not coming off as some flim flam artist with some maybe hets or possibly healthy hatchlings or "buy today or it's gone tomorrow" crapola.

If I show you I'm a knowledgable person who cares deeply for ball pythons and values them highly, then you'll buy. Maybe not today....maybe not tomorrow...but in the end...someday I'll have what you want and you'll remember the nice lady from that small show (or at least I hope you will :) ) who took the time to let you hold some snakes and probably talked too much but really loved her snakes.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Fair enough. What kinds of things are in your smell test...for me its an updated (some what that is) website. Pics of their breeding location, and being able to ask about them and not get the "WHO IS THAT" response.

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Ed, again I'll go from a different angle...the show angle not the online purchasing angle. Things that wouldn't pass my personal "smell" test....

- poorly displayed animals in overcrowded conditions
- messy looking sellers who look like they just rolled out of bed, tossed some snakes in a bag and hopped in the truck to head to the show
- someone who pushes me to buy now and doesn't want to let me think about it
- someone who if I hesitate starts slashing the snake's value down fast (big arse red flag for me - if you don't value your snake, why should I?)
- any smaller breeder that immediately starts bad mouthing the "big boys" of the BP breeders world (jealousy is very off putting!)
- little thing but it makes me wonder if they don't have hand sanitizer, just a little thing but it's like they don't care if germs go around at the show
- someone who doesn't have a business card - even a simple one so if I buy I have some way of getting hold of them later
- unsexed snakes w/o feeding records or a clue when they were hatched and a seller that acts offended you should even ask for this information
- flim flam slick willies who talk big but stink bigger
- people who treat women like we don't "get" snakes
- everything on the table is a "show special" and they act like taking the snakes home is the world's worst hassle
- snakes at shows that have swollen bellies full from just being fed (mites and crud I shouldn't even have to list)
- somebody who acts like every big breeder is their best buddy/life mate/partner in business/soul mate but funny enough hasn't a clue where most of these breeders are actually located

Great advice guys keep it coming. I am working slowly to get things the way I want them. "Any thing worth doing is worth doing right". When I got to my first show I don't expect to present a NERD or BHB class table but I also don't want it to look like flea market table either. I have a couple of ideas and things that I have gotten all ready that will allow me to better serve my customers. So the advice is really helping me stir my mind up. Thanks. :D

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

- poorly displayed animals in overcrowded conditions I hate this too
- messy looking sellers who look like they just rolled out of bed, tossed some snakes in a bag and hopped in the truck to head to the show Ditto you run a business act like it
- someone who pushes me to buy now and doesn't want to let me think about it Noted
- someone who if I hesitate starts slashing the snake's value down fast (big arse red flag for me - if you don't value your snake, why should I?) LOL the price is negotiable but not liquid
- any smaller breeder that immediately starts bad mouthing the "big boys" of the BP breeders world (jealousy is very off putting!) Most of my mentors are these bigger breeders
- little thing but it makes me wonder if they don't have hand sanitizer, just a little thing but it's like they don't care if germs go around at the show or PAM to show they use it
- someone who doesn't have a business card - even a simple one so if I buy I have some way of getting hold of them later A must
- unsexed snakes w/o feeding records or a clue when they were hatched and a seller that acts offended you should even ask for this information I can't even imagian people trying to sell these animals
- flim flam slick willies who talk big but stink bigger LOL
- people who treat women like we don't "get" snakes :D Never!! in todays world women control %95 of all house hold money be nice to the ladys besides women are great
- everything on the table is a "show special" and they act like taking the snakes home is the world's worst hassleI'll be selling my pets they could all come home
- snakes at shows that have swollen bellies full from just being fed (mites and crud I shouldn't even have to list)If I wouldn't ship it I wouldn't bring it
- somebody who acts like every big breeder is their best buddy/life mate/partner in business/soul mate but funny enough hasn't a clue where most of these breeders are actually located

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I can't say I've heard of Kara Glasgow or Kevin McCurly

LOL I love your responses! I think there's a fine line between professing to be Kara's new best buddy and saying "I've met Kara at a show or in a forum and I really respect the lady for her contribution to the world of bp breeding". If you are someone's friend then you are, if you aren't don't suck up to their rep is basically what I'm driving at.

If someone asks you for references, take this as a good thing from a responsible purchaser and have the information at hand. Always make sure you let anyone know you are using them as a reference (just like you would do on a job application). I think that's always best, a sign of courtesy and respect to ask if they mind if their name is used by you.

Oh one more thing that came up awhile back in another forum. Have the paperwork there for every snake that has special genetics so the seller takes it home with the snake that day. The old "oh I forgot the paperwork and I'll mail it to you when I get back home" just isn't going to cut it with me. You want to sell me a snake that is het for something, hand me the paperwork or I'm not handing you the cash...simple as that. When this person on the other forum posted that the paperwork was "going to come"...I just thought..."yah right it will, right after hell freezes over most likely". Maybe I'm picky here but what's a file with some paperwork in it going to take to bring to a show where you expect to sell higher priced snakes. I don't think that's so much to ask from a seller.

SHOOT! I x'ed off the wrong one. I meant to check off the first one, but I checked off the "They couldn't." one. :(

Paper work on that animal is a major key in writing IMO and also who produced it.

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Oh one more thing that came up awhile back in another forum. Have the paperwork there for every snake that has special genetics so the seller takes it home with the snake that day. The old "oh I forgot the paperwork and I'll mail it to you when I get back home" just isn't going to cut it with me. You want to sell me a snake that is het for something, hand me the paperwork or I'm not handing you the cash...simple as that. When this person on the other forum posted that the paperwork was "going to come"...I just thought..."yah right it will, right after hell freezes over most likely". Maybe I'm picky here but what's a file with some paperwork in it going to take to bring to a show where you expect to sell higher priced snakes. I don't think that's so much to ask from a seller.

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See I would have thought this is a given. With Degei you can just print out a cage card that list the last 5 feedings and everything then you can have a folder with All the photo Id and full feeding records and so on. There are only a couple of people that I would even consider buying from with out paperwork.

I would have thought it a given too but I guess for some folks it isn't. It's just something I would just consider the right way to do business.

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

I would have thought it a given too but I guess for some folks it isn't. It's just something I would just consider the right way to do business.

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Bingo! the right way to do business.

Hm.. for me, I would have to either
a) Buy from an already-established breeder who has many customers that proved out hets from them.. or..
b) Buy from someone that I trusted based on a personal rapport of them.

This has been a great post!

As many of you know, I had a table at the FIRE show this past weekend. I spent alot of time talking to many of the breeders at the show as I have for several years since getting into this business. I agree with the points that have been made. . . especially the intuition part and that this is a business. :)

From the posts here it seems that getting paperwork from a breeder when you purchase a snake at a show is important to many. However, it doesn't happen often at all from my experience. I can only remember a few times when the breeder had paperwork at the show and many more times when the breeders did not even keep and therefore could not produce feeding records. I need to rethink how I can do a better job on this in the future . . . .

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Originally Posted by Alice

This has been a great post!

As many of you know, I had a table at the FIRE show this past weekend. I spent alot of time talking to many of the breeders at the show as I have for several years since getting into this business. I agree with the points that have been made. . . especially the intuition part and that this is a business. :)

From the posts here it seems that getting paperwork from a breeder when you purchase a snake at a show is important to many. However, it doesn't happen often at all from my experience. I can only remember a few times when the breeder had paperwork at the show and many more times when the breeders did not even keep and therefore could not produce feeding records. I need to rethink how I can do a better job on this in the future . . . .

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Well I'm glad this has helped more people than me. :D Really.

I would like to say that this thread is also helping me with some of the things I would like to do when I get to point where I can have a table. One thing that I decieded is any animal that is purchased from us in the future will come with a printout that has a color picture of the snake purchased a feed, weight and "parental" history and a care sheet.
Now as for Alice you had some SPECTACULAR animals on your table! :sunny: I am still thinking about your pastels! :D

Well I figure with a decent printer and a link to my Degei program, where I keep records and various ID pics of each snake anyways, how hard would it be to just print out a single sheet on each snake. Pic of snake, various info, last few feeds and of course, our contact info. That plus a nice stack of basic husbandry handouts for those that need them and I figure I'd be good to go and it wouldn't cost all that much. Running a business I figure you have these sorts of overhead costs and you just budget it into the price you ask for the snake and the profit you expect to see, much like any business would. Makes sense to me.

I kind of like the idea Jen had, i don't know if it was this post of another, but every snake you sell comes with the basics. a tub with some flex, and a couple of cheap hides, stuff like that.

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Originally Posted by kellysballs

I would like to say that this thread is also helping me with some of the things I would like to do when I get to point where I can have a table. One thing that I decieded is any animal that is purchased from us in the future will come with a printout that has a color picture of the snake purchased a feed, weight and "parental" history and a care sheet.
Now as for Alice you had some SPECTACULAR animals on your table! :sunny: I am still thinking about your pastels! :D

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Thanks Kelly!

Don Kaye with Don Kaye Reptiles provides a folder with a picture of each of the parents as well as the snake you are purchasing. He also includes a cpoy of the weight and feeding records he keeps. I always found his folder very helpful info.

i'm kind of picky on where my hets come from. for me i don't need paperwork or a receipt. my trust level with that breeder is enough for me. the "paperwork" is only as good as the person writing it.


i think by the time you have alot of hets for sale, you should have a few years under your belt at least. during those years if you network and build enough relationships, people will get to know you.

for me, i will never buy hets from someone i don't know


vaughn

great thread. such wonderfully enlightening posts. thanks everyone.

i ordered my hets from adam... simply because he has SUCH a good reputation here and since i feel a connection to you all and you all trust him... well that was good enough for me. (honestly getting a few of his balls was a dream of mine which i never thought could come true)

so for me... at this point (because i'm still new to the ball python world)... i'd go with someone with a great rep. period.

as i get to know other breeders better... then i'd be more interested in acquiring some from smaller breeders. but being from canada... there seems to be no one here from my part of the world... so who am i to buy from???

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Originally Posted by kavmon

i'm kind of picky on where my hets come from. for me i don't need paperwork or a receipt. my trust level with that breeder is enough for me. the "paperwork" is only as good as the person writing it.


i think by the time you have alot of hets for sale, you should have a few years under your belt at least. during those years if you network and build enough relationships, people will get to know you.

for me, i will never buy hets from someone i don't know


vaughn

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Exactly! Anyone can write anything they want on a piece of paper.

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Originally Posted by kavmon

i'm kind of picky on where my hets come from. for me i don't need paperwork or a receipt. my trust level with that breeder is enough for me. the "paperwork" is only as good as the person writing it.


i think by the time you have alot of hets for sale, you should have a few years under your belt at least. during those years if you network and build enough relationships, people will get to know you.

for me, i will never buy hets from someone i don't know


vaughn

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I agree 100%. I have a het that a friend gave me that came from a nobody we have never heard of and guess what she didn't prove out when bred to my albino. I have another het from a breeder that I know and trust and although she hasn't layed for me yet I have all the confidence that when she does I will see some little pink eyes popping out. Oh by the way the nobody's het had pics and paperwork. In reality it's just ink and a snapshot.

I think the poll should have trust and reputation. If you know and trust someone that should count for alot even if they are just a hobbist. All big breeders started somewhere.

Hets to me is a gamble, but it shouldn't be. You are buying something you can't see, but are taking someone's word for, and that requires a lot of trust. If I didn't know the person or the company I would like actual proof they are hets. Pics of the parents and things like that.

I have only been to one show and it was the FIRE show here in orlando. I realize this is a big show with a lot of good breeders, and then some not so good. But I walked around with the idea that all I was to people was a dollar sign, I have money and the breeder wants it. It's the breeders job to make me feel otherwise. Hets are the same way, to me they are a lie, its their job to prove otherwise.

This may be kinda harsh towards breeders, but when your spending $500.00 and up on something you cant even see, you better be damn sure you know what your getting. BUT, there are exceptions. If your a breeder on here, I wouldn't at all doubt you are selling what you say you are selling. I wouldn't at all be hesitant to buy a het from You, Alice, Adam, because I have talked with you all, some face to face, and you all know your stuff and a reputation that reflects that.

For me, it all comes down to one thing, can you prove what you are selling is truly what you say it is? If you can't take the time to convince me you know what you have, why should I take time to prove it out? And for me, saying "I know they are hets cause I bred em." Wouldn't cut it.