Phoenix worms

I've read a little but about these worms so I picked some up at phoneixworms.com

So will these replace crickets as a main feeder that I can maybe supplement witch crickets every weekend or so? From what I understand you don't even have to dust these little guys, just pick them out of the cups, allow them to dry, and serve. Unless they need to be dusted with multivitamins thats probably something to ask about..... anyway there's one thread here regarding phoenix worms that I've found and it was fairly brief. Alot of the stuff I've googled says you can, while theres some that recommend that you don't. Anyone here with first hand experience?

Thanks :)

phoenix worms are great and super nutritious. i don't think you need to dust them at all (i don 't). they can replace crickets altogether or you can still give crickets occasionally for variety. variety is always a good thing, so you may still want to just give a few here and there.

it also partially depends on how well your leo likes the phoenix worms--if he takes right to them and gobbles them up then you obviously don't need to give crickets too often unless you want to. :)

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Originally Posted by mlededee

phoenix worms are great and super nutritious. i don't think you need to dust them at all (i don 't). they can replace crickets altogether or you can still give crickets occasionally for variety. variety is always a good thing, so you may still want to just give a few here and there.

it also partially depends on how well your leo likes the phoenix worms--if he takes right to them and gobbles them up then you obviously don't need to give crickets too often unless you want to. :)

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cool, since you have some experience with them let me pick your brain a little if you dont mind. I picked up 4 cups 600 worms, how long can I expect them to last in a room thats 75* on average? and I know this is totally dependent on the leo but is it fair to consider 4 cups a months supply for one leo?

I know theres alot of variables that can affect my actual results but I'm just trying to get a rough idea. Alot of the information online is extremely vague and/or conflicting. I've read anywhere from 2 weeks to 2 months, so needless to say I'm a little confused :oops:

hmm, well most of mine get fed off fairly quickly since i give them to my cresteds and there are a lot of mouths there. :P i found a cup of them recently that is probably more than 6 months old (who put that cup in that cabinet anyhow?! :oops: ) and there were still a good number of live worms in it, so i think the question here is not how long will the worms live but how long will it take for your gecko to eat them.

the nice thing about the phoenix worms is that they don't have to eat them in great quantities because they are high in nutritional value, so i'm guessing an adult leo might eat 6-8 per day depending on the size of the worm. that's totally just a guess though, so you're really going to have to experiment and see what works for your leo. try a few at a time and see how many he can eat at once--if you leave them in the dish for more than a day or two, especially if it is hot the worms will dry up and die. definitely keep the dish on the cool side of your tank since they really can't handle heat.

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Originally Posted by mlededee

hmm, well most of mine get fed off fairly quickly since i give them to my cresteds and there are a lot of mouths there. :P i found a cup of them recently that is probably more than 6 months old (who put that cup in that cabinet anyhow?! :oops: ) and there were still a good number of live worms in it, so i think the question here is not how long will the worms live but how long will it take for your gecko to eat them.

the nice thing about the phoenix worms is that they don't have to eat them in great quantities because they are high in nutritional value, so i'm guessing an adult leo might eat 6-8 per day depending on the size of the worm. that's totally just a guess though, so you're really going to have to experiment and see what works for your leo. try a few at a time and see how many he can eat at once--if you leave them in the dish for more than a day or two, especially if it is hot the worms will dry up and die. definitely keep the dish on the cool side of your tank since they really can't handle heat.

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good stuff, I know those numbers are estimations but you have the experience and it helps ease my curiosity a little. This one I have here has been a bit of a problem eater. She took dusted crickets just fine the first few feedings. then she wouldn't take them dusted. After a while she wouldn't take them at all so I went to mealworms and she gobbled them up. then stopped.... It's a little frustrating, I kind of have to annoy her with the food for her to eat it, but I'm hoping phoenix worms will be the answer.

As far as leaving worms in the hot side, I'd rather get her on a steady feeding schedule so I normally just offer food near midnight sometimes a little earlier (on weekends) so I think I'll just do the plop and wait technique, and hopefully she takes :P

thanks! :D

how old is your leo and how much does she weigh? how often are you feeding her? she won't eat mealworms if you leave them in a dish for her?

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Originally Posted by mlededee

how old is your leo and how much does she weigh? how often are you feeding her? she won't eat mealworms if you leave them in a dish for her?

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from what i was told she was hatched early may.

I just weighed her in a light bulb box. The box with her weighs 29 grams, the box weighs 20 grams. so 9 - 10 grams. This is my first leo so I'm not sure if thats good or bad. I know adults can weigh anything from 40 to 100 grams.

She eats daily (today is the only day I couldn't really get her to eat) and she's never taken a mealworm unless it came from the end of my tongs.

i think maybe you are just feeding her too often. she doesn't have to eat every day. for hatchlings and juvies i leave mealworms in a dish at all times and supplement with crickets every 3-4 days and that's usually plenty. try putting about 10 small mealworms (or some phoenix worms) into a dish that she can easily access and leave her be for a few days and see what happens. if she hasn't eaten at all after about 5 days then offer her some crickets and see if she takes those. leos aren't usually picky or troublesome eaters--maybe she just doesn't need as much as you are trying to give her.

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Originally Posted by mlededee

i think maybe you are just feeding her too often. she doesn't have to eat every day. for hatchlings and juvies i leave mealworms in a dish at all times and supplement with crickets every 3-4 days and that's usually plenty. try putting about 10 small mealworms (or some phoenix worms) into a dish that she can easily access and leave her be for a few days and see what happens. if she hasn't eaten at all after about 5 days then offer her some crickets and see if she takes those. leos aren't usually picky or troublesome eaters--maybe she just doesn't need as much as you are trying to give her.

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this is possible. I'll grab the mealworms and leave her some in her dish, see how that works out. I appreciate your help. I still hope she takes to these phoenix worms as I would much rather keep those than crickets. I really don't think I can get used to keeping crickets constantly. once a week for a day or two I can handle. Plus the whole aspect of not having to supplement her food sounds kinda nice ;)

if she likes the phoenix worms than you should be set. you can mainly feed those and supplement with mealworms and just forget about the crickets altogether if that's what you want to do. keep me updated on how she does! :)

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Originally Posted by mlededee

if she likes the phoenix worms than you should be set. you can mainly feed those and supplement with mealworms and just forget about the crickets altogether if that's what you want to do. keep me updated on how she does! :)

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cool, I'd much rather stay with the worms alltogether, and just ditch the crickets. Thanks again, you've been a great help! :rockon:

I left her 10 mealies like you said. I supplemented 2 of them and the rest I just threw in. I just got back to find that she had eaten all 8 that were un-supplemented. I left her a little pile of calcium but It's undisturbed. oh well, so long as she's eating.

what a little goof. :P what are you dusting them with?

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Originally Posted by mlededee

what a little goof. :P what are you dusting them with?

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rep cal multivitamins and calcium/d3

and it looks like she kicked the calcium powder around, she liked to dig her belly in sand and I guess thats the closest thing. You could even see an imprint that looks like she tried laying in it :laughing:

ha yeah, my females used to dig in their calcium and toss it all over the place. i think they just liked messing up a clean cage. :P

in any case, just leave the worms for her from now on and as long as they are gut loaded properly you can just dust every now and then to try to sneak some vitamins in on her. leave the calcium out in a dish like you are doing and she'll eat it if she needs it.

I just stuck 15 lightly supplemented mealies in her dish just so she can have them, and as soon as she caught sight of them wiggling around she walked over and took 2 mouth fulls and walked off. There's 11 left in there and i'm just going to leave them in. Hopefully she keeps eating them...

Do you pinch the heads on mealies before you serve them to your gecko's?

well it sounds like she's coming around. :) i don't remove the heads, i just feed smaller worms to smaller geckos and the larger worms only to adults.

heres another question, i'll ask here since it's food related.... is there any harm in feeding her dead or dying crickets. I pull the legs off so they don't wander out of the dish. Just found out she'll consume them like that, she ate all but 1.

i wouldn't feed those. most leos won't eat anything that isn't alive to start with, and if it is dead it may be rotting/bad and you don't want her to eat it. crickets that are dying could be dying for any number of reasons, but whatever the case aren't as healthy as a living thriving cricket so i just toss them. i think that you want to feed the healthiest insects in order to have the healthiest leo.

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Originally Posted by mlededee

i wouldn't feed those. most leos won't eat anything that isn't alive to start with, and if it is dead it may be rotting/bad and you don't want her to eat it. crickets that are dying could be dying for any number of reasons, but whatever the case aren't as healthy as a living thriving cricket so i just toss them. i think that you want to feed the healthiest insects in order to have the healthiest leo.

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Makes sense. Hopefully I wont have to hassle with crickets soon. *fingers crossed* :P

The worms showed up today, took 2 days for delivery which is just awesome. 600 worms for $26 shipped is a great deal too, considering that the prices for mealworms locally are $5.99 for a 50 count. I'm looking at em and I'm thinking she's probably going to love them as they seem extremely active. They wiggle around alot, should be fun watching her consume them. :D

they are really squirmy fun little worms. :P my juvie cresteds go especially nuts over them. hope she likes them!

well I guess she took to them, I left 15 in her dish last night, and I figured she would eat them all considering the size but she only ate 9. Still she's eating them so I'm considering them a success. The crickets are all gone and I don't miss the smell!

yeah! keep in mind that phoenix worms are much more nutritous than mealworms, so they don't have to eat as many to get what they need and to feel full. 9 of those in one night is a good meal. :)

Good to know! I appreciate your input on this over the past few days. It really helps put some outsiders perspective on my little obsessive compulsive worries over minor details :D

no worries! that's what i'm here for. :)

ok heres one more :P

when she cleans out the dish, should I always add more as soon as I notice it? She's consumed over 20 today :) So I guess it's safe to say she loves em.

She's up to 30. definitely going for the medium worms next time.

good lord, i think she's found her favorite new food. and you thought she was a picky eater! :P she's still young and growing, so i'd keep either those or mealworms in her dish at all times. you can alternate days or do whatever you want to do really.

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Originally Posted by mlededee

good lord, i think she's found her favorite new food. and you thought she was a picky eater! :P she's still young and growing, so i'd keep either those or mealworms in her dish at all times. you can alternate days or do whatever you want to do really.

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cool, you mentioned overfeeding but since she's willingly gobbling them down I figured I'd ask before I continued to fill her dish ;)

From what I've read leos should be fed as much as they want to eat unless they start to regurge or become visibly obese. I don't know what would qualify as obese but she's definitely little.

at her age she's not going to get obese. she's using all her food for growing. :) since she is eating quite a lot of them right now i might alternate between those and mealworms, every other day for now though. or you might fill her dish with phoenix worms and let her have as many as she wants in 10-15 minutes and after that take them out and replace with mealworms. i gotta say, 30 seems like a lot, even though they are little so at least for tonight, since this is her first time having them i might only give her a few more so she doesn't just keep eating them because they are new and exciting or something.

cool that makes sense. thanks again! :D

Just did what you said, she ate 2 and walked off. Remember she only weighs 9 grams. 9.6 on a full stomach. For other leos near her hatch date on breeders sites I've seen anywhere from 15 to 25 grams. I think she was on the every other day feeding schedule at the pet shop. I assume she's "catching up" now that she found her favorite food. Anyways I'll give her some mealies tomorrow and see if she's still putting them away the same :D

aw she is still just a little girl and i bet she is catching up like you say. once she catches up some she'll slow down a little on the eating, but it sounds like she is definitely on the right track now. :gj:

not to impose on your conversation here but...

have you tried silkworms? they are really nutritious and super yummy. when my son had leos they went nutty over their silkies... and the new owners of his leos buy silks from me on a regular basis as they definitely prefer them over everything else they've tried. (although they have not tried phoenix worms)

so perhaps, this is another avenue for you to pursue as well :D

here's some nutritional value:

silkworms vs crickets

crude protein 63.8% vs 11.4%
fat 10.6% vs 22.7%
ash 7.4% vs 9,9%
carbs 18.2% vs 56.0%
calcium 0.34% vs 0.08%
phosphorus 0.8% vs 0.78%
Ca:P ratio 1 : 2.35 vs 1 : 9.75

very interesting read!

http://www.esrla.com/brazil/frame.htm

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Originally Posted by recycling goddess

not to impose on your conversation here but...

have you tried silkworms? they are really nutritious and super yummy. when my son had leos they went nutty over their silkies... and the new owners of his leos buy silks from me on a regular basis as they definitely prefer them over everything else they've tried. (although they have not tried phoenix worms)

so perhaps, this is another avenue for you to pursue as well :D

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No imposition at all, I was asking for opinions :P with those nutritional values it's definitely another thing to keep in mind, as they seem to have an ideal calcium to phosphorous ratio. Are silk worms as soft and easy to digest as phoenix worms?

On a side note, I woke up this morning to find the little leo asleep head first in her empty dish.

silkworms are really soft bodied and can get quite large. I agree with Aleesha, they're great. My leos LOVE them.

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Originally Posted by Montee

On a side note, I woke up this morning to find the little leo asleep head first in her empty dish.

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OMG TOO CUTE!!! she must really LOVE her new worms! :P

i agree, silkworms are another great source of food, i've just never fed them myself so i have no first hand experience with them. from everything i've heard though they are wonderful!

glad to hear. I'll throw them into the mix. I think I'll primarily feed the phoenix worms for the whole ease of management factor. Silkworms are also a bit more expensive than phoenix worms, which isn't really a problem but at over 3 times the cost per quantity It adds up (although as far as size goes 50 small silkworms may easily be the equivalent of 100 small phoenix worms). Also theres no local supply for silkworms so they would have to be purchased online.

silkworms get larger than your phoenix worms... which does fill their belly faster. my critters all eat them... my chameleon watches me dealing with the silkworms and runs to the front of her enclosure waiting for me to open the door with a handful. i can't even set them down anymore, she eats them right out of my hand LOL

my anoles will eat them off my tweezers as do my firebelly toads.

with the leos... i had a bunch of driftwood in their enclosure as they loved to go up the driftwood and sleep on the top LOL (they also loved their hides) so i would hide silkworms all along their wood... all over their enclosure so they'd go hunting... i love watching them hunt LOL

my crested geckos and bearded dragons loved them as well.

if you go to some of the bearded dragon forums, there are usually quite a few people who can direct you to the closest available supplier. on the last page of my enclosure site... i have a link to some information and sites.

http://www.timelessspirit.com/enclosure.html

Another crasher here :)

Wow, this thread has been really educational. I've had Dapple for years now, lost count, and picked him up as a 'mistreated young adult'..that's all I know about him. (Of course, I know better now to get critters from places with actual INFO) He's been on crickets mainly with superworms from time to time and waxworm treats. He's fine and dandy now, finally keeping a nice fat tail, and I thought I had him on the best diet...little did I know...

I will certainly be getting him onto these phoenix and silk worms as soon as I see how much my food source (Scales n tails) charges for them. Hopefully I can replace my crickets and supers account with phoenix and silkies!

Just a Q first tho: He's at least 8 years old, and I feed him twice a week 5 supers and 5-7 crickets each time. A) Am I unknowingly underfeeding him? B) Will these phoenix and silkworms be the new diet staple if he likes them? (i.e. no more crickets? My partner would LOVE getting rid of the cricket tank.)

Thanks for enduring the ramble :D

crickets and mealworms aren't a bad food source and phoenix worms are very new so you wouldn't have heard of them much more than a year ago anyhow. :) if you feed phoenix worms and/or silkworms you can definitely get rid of the crickets. you can leave a dish of mealies or phoenix worms in his enclosure at all times and them give him silkworms once or twice per week or something like that, but i do always leave a dish of worms in the enclosure at all times.

well just got home from work for lunch and tossed 15 fully supplemented mealies in with her and she went right at it. So it seems now that she's comfortable with me (i've been working on handling her and getting her to willingly step into my hand) and her environment she feels safe enough to start trying to get her weight up. After talking to some breeders I've come to the conclusion that she is infact underweight and I should "expect her to eat like a little monster".

I picked up a 50 count of small silks online. I'm going to give them a try and see how she likes them. But like I said I think as staple diet she'll get phoenix worms, and I will be moving up to the mediums since the smalls are pretty small.

Thanks for the added info :cool:

awesome--it sounds like she is doing really well now! i bet she packs that weight back on in a heartbeat--it is amazing how fast they grow! :D

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Originally Posted by Argentra

Will these phoenix and silkworms be the new diet staple if he likes them? (i.e. no more crickets? My partner would LOVE getting rid of the cricket tank.)

Thanks for enduring the ramble :D

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yes they will and you can take your silkworms and just place them around the tank... leaving a little game of "hide and seek" for your critters. they loooove that. the silkworms can live a week (sometimes two weeks) without any food source so it's not a problem for them to be living in the tank of your critter.

unlike crickets they will NOT eat your critter. they are soft bodied so size doesn't really matter... you can feed larger ones with no problems. an adult can have large worms without any difficulty but honestly, medium silks are a nice size and a better price... and they will grow at your home with food - so the mediums are best value for your money!

Awesome. Thanks for the heads up on that. I'll get some of the worms Monday when I pick up Nagini's hopper. :)

P.S. Ari says thanks as well. As I thought, he's quite happy we can get rid of the crickets...he always hated it when they chirped all night.

Interesting thread. I start my baby leos on phoenix worms. However, a couple weeks ago I picked up some for eggs that may be hatching soon, and ended up trying to feed them to my adults. They ignored them.

I ended up feeding them off to my scorpions.

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Originally Posted by Schlyne

Interesting thread. I start my baby leos on phoenix worms. However, a couple weeks ago I picked up some for eggs that may be hatching soon, and ended up trying to feed them to my adults. They ignored them.

I ended up feeding them off to my scorpions.

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my leos stopped digesting these properly so I just went to mealies and they're packing the weight on.