Discussion on Rat food.

There has long been discussion on whether or not dog food is a good diet for rats and if it's a good complete diet. What exactlly ARE the nutritional requirments for rodents and how were those requirements determined? I've been using an all dog food diet for my rodent colony now for a year and a half with the occaisional inclusion of some sunflower seeds as treats. I've had several generations of rats now that have eaten nothing else. I haven't noticed any difference in my rat colony than when I was feeding a lab block diet. At one time I thought I was having a problem with fewer litters and smaller litter sizes, however once I replaced my old breeders with younger ones, the production went back to normal.

I've always been of the mind that the ingrediants in the bag are more important then the picture on the front. Here is the list of ingrediants to the brand of Dog food I use, it seems to me that the list is, while not identical, very similar to the list of ingredients on the bags of rodent chow I've used in the past. The only major difference I've been able to determine is the amount of money left in my pocket. With the dog food costing me $11.95 for a 50lb bag, and the harlan teklad costing me over $19.00 for a 33lb bag, the savings really adds up. So, how is feeding dog food 'bad' if it meets all of their nutritional requirements?

List of ingredients.
Wheat middlings, ground yellow corn, soybean meal, poultry by-product meal, animal fat (preserved with BHA and citric acid), calcium carbonate, salt, minerals (zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, zinc oxide, copper sulfate, sodium selenite, manganous oxide, mineral oil, calcium iodate, cobalt carbonate), vitamins (vitamin A acetate, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin E supplement, niacin, pantothenic acid, thiamine mononitrate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, riboflavin supplement, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of vitamin K activity), folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12 supplement), choline chloride.

The dog food I use also has this note under the list of ingrediants.
'Sprout Chunk Dog Food is formulated to meet the nutrtional levels established by the Association of American Feed Control Officials (AAFCO) Dog Food Nutrient Profiles for maintenance of adult dogs.'

So, I'm wondering, Does the AAFCO also have a Rodent food Nutrient profile? If so, where can I find this information? I tired looking it up on the web but I was only able to find their listing of nutritional requirements for Dogs and Cats.

I think this thread could be a very good one...as long as everyone doesn't try and stereotype the feed.

I see a lot of "dog food" is bad and "lab block" is good comments. But these type of comments are stereotyping the foods.

Yes Dog food is designed for dogs - but that doesn't mean certain brands and/or mixes won't have the correct ingredients or nutritional values to be good for rats.

Yes Lab Block is designed for rats - but this doesn't mean that ALL lab blocks are created equal. Several of the pet store brands have alfalfa as a base ingredient (which we know rats cannot digest) which also raise the protein higher than needed.

Just something to keep in mind that in order for this thread to be meaningful we will need to be brand and product specific when saying something is good or bad.

Here's three versions of the same article of a study done on the protein content of rats' food and how it affected Kidney Diseases.

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl...37720545959705

Now, how much of an issue that this is, well, that's another issue. If the rats are on a diet that merely sustains them (not optimal), how does that in turn affect the predators eating them, if at all? I think THAT is the more important question here, as opposed to whether or not one food is better for the rats or not.

My own reasoning goes like this - do what is healthiest for the rats, which will be healthiest for the snakes. If feeding a high protein diet to rats is bad for them, I feel like that would be bad for the snakes as well.

edit: if you ever want to do some real research, start at least with google scholar. It only includes peer-reviewed publications that are MUCH more reputable and does not include all of the Melissa Kaplan type of BS that shows up on the regular searches.

I feed my rats lab block, supplemented by the occasional chicken bone, dog milk bone or peanuts....

Rats have been around for hundreds of years and are one of the most sucessfulll animals on the planet. They are on every continent except antartica. Wild rats eat garbage and they are thriving.

What tye of Dog food are you using. I had been using Flint River Mills lab block. But had problems. Most of the fat was a chicken skin. Made the rats smell worse and they seemed to not thrive on it as well. Todd

Well, through my experience keeping rats as pets as well as helping raise a colony of breeders with a friend, I found that no one food does the total trick. The key to rats being healthy and happy is variety, just like with many other animals. They need a base diet, usually a mix of healthy grains, and the addition of different foods on top of that. My friend's colony was fed on a diet learned from this site (Which also happens to be where I got my current girls from)
http://www.freewebs.com/camarattery/diets.htm

Tho certainly not the LAW of rat feeding, her page points out many good and bad things and her diet mix, supplemented with fresh fruits and veggies and the occasional treat, is what I have been giving my girls for a year now.

Thats my :2cent: on the subject. :)

I can't dispute the use of dog foods other than that are formulated for just that...dogs. I have fed *some* dog food but not as a staple. For me personally I am happy to buy a food specifically formulated for rodents. Not to long ago I was using a cheaper block, it was for rodents but the ingredients and quality was not there. After changing to what I will say is a higher quality food, albeit a little more expensive I saw a drastic change in my rodents overall. Larger healthier litters and nicer looking adults -not that I ever thought they looked bad or where unhealthy before. The biggest result was with the litters as I said they seem to be larger and growth rate is excellent. I take full advantage of the fact that the company has put time, effort, and money into a rodent feed product so I don't have to guess or hope that something else is "close" enough to what they should get in order to thrive. It is my goal not just to keep my rodents alive and fat while I have them but healthy and thriving as much as they can be in such an environment. If this can be accomplished then I know my snakes are getting the highest quality rodents.

Because rats are omnivores we feed them as such. They receive a base dry mix that contains dog food, lab block, various other things such as dry pasta, large flake oatmeal, raisins, etc. Other than the base of dog food and lab block the other dry mix items change percentages as I pick this or that up. They have this available to them daily to free feed from and there's very little wasted.

They also receive 2 to 3 times a week, kitchen scraps which might include chicken bones, steak bones, cooked meat scraps, cooked pasta, vegetables both cooked and raw....basically things that would end up in my garbage can but instead are put to good use by the rats. I consider this an excellent use for our human leftovers and basically free rat food. :)

We've been feeding this way for a couple of years now. I don't see protein issues with their coats, they are fit rats that are producing consistently large litters, they are producing litters for a very good useful breeding lifespan and are healthy and vibrant when they go into retirement from the breeding pool. I think it's best to feed an animal specific to that animal so for me a pure dog food diet just doesn't work for rats.

The major rat breeder near me feeds pig food to the rats. I haven't found out what kind, but it's special ordered in by the local feed store for them.
Pigs are omnivores too, so might it be a closer diet?
A feed store near me SMALL-TIME breeds mice and rats, and they also feed pig pellets. They say the rats/mice do well on it, and breed well.
I have tried the lab block, and dog food, and combining them, and feeding a mice of fresh fruits, veggies, dog food and lab block.
The best was the combo with fresh veggies and fruits.
The WORST was the plain dog food(BUT... it was a lower quality dog food, like think.. Old Roy garbage). The rats did lousy on it.
At no time did I notice any higher rates of cannabalism. When a rat died, they would tend to start eating it. I DID have a few more deaths on the dog-food only diet, which is why that trial was cut short very very quickly.
Now, they are eating the pig pellets(annoying, because they are tiny pellets and I have to use dishes again) and I'm not sure I'm very happy with it. I'll probaly end up going back to lab block mainly, with added dog food(high quality) and veggies and fruits according to what's on sale.
I'll be following this thread, so I can make a decision on the new diet ideas. I also have to replace a large number of my breeders, as they are already over a year old(some)
Wolfy

My mice are getting the non-medicated Hog Finisher pellets right now, as I ran out of lab block and won't be getting any more until Saturday. They go through it a LOT faster than they do the Mazuri, so I think it's not as filling.

I just want to share that I recently learned that raw corn on the cob is not good for the rats.

Well if anyone of you want to get really, really, really technical....LOL


http://www.afrma.org/bc_ratdiet.htm

I have to say, I commend you for starting this thread. No matter what you come away with, you're willing to actually discuss an issue instead of throw a tantrum about something just because you may think its right...
anywho, I just wanted to say that, because it shows your interested in the well being of your animals and not your ego.
I'm not going to say I'm a rat expert, I keep one rat, that's it, I feed f/t so the rest are in my freezer awaiting feeding day. So I won't pretend that I know a whole lot about rat nutrition. But think about it this way. Consider morphology, look at even the dentition or skull shape of a dog vs. a rat, they're completely different meant for eating different things. They also have a digestive tract meant for digesting different things. BUT... like I said I'm no expert, besides that the thing I would think about would be, would you be able to live on a dog food only diet? and would your dog be able to live on the diet that you are currently eating? I doubt it, both of you would be fine for a while, then get pretty sick, at least I would imagine so. I would say it's the same thing with rats and dog food. But that's my over-simplified take on it, maybe it means something maybe it doesn't.

I use the hog feed (unmedicated) as a base. I mix in uncooked tricolor pasta, some high-quality dog food, and large unsalted peanuts and sunflower seeds. I have been using this method for months now, and got completely away from the lab blocks.. my rats have been doing great.
For the weanlings, I feed the mix but I also add some drops of water onto it; seems to soften the pig feed pellets and make the transition easier from mom's milk to food.

I feed pretty much Becky's rat mix, but I don't use dried lentils and peas, as my gang didn't seem to eat it. I buy Kashi cereals for most the cereal part of it when it's on sale (and then stock up), store brand rice and wheat puffs, I don't like using any sweetened cereal, but I will sometimes use the store brand raisin bran, and I also get a wild bird food that has whole sunflower seeds, seeded sunflower seeds, mixed nuts and mixed fruits, as well as pumpkin seeds.

I don't often supplement with leftovers, that's more of a treat, but they will also get fresh fruit and veggies.

People often joke and ask me "what are you feeding your rats?" when I have posted litter sizes in the past. I average litter sizes of 15+ with all my females, unless it's a first litter, and then it's never less than 12. I do also rest my females and don't breed them back to back.

I rarely loose any babies through culling or not surviving birth.

So, I'm quite pleased with my results.

I absolutely had to share... my friend's sense of idiotcy.
When I mentioned that I was trying to convert the pythons to frozen thawed rats, because it meant I wouldn't have to clean up after rats, or feed them... he said...
"Do you feed frozen rats frozen food?"
OMG. Laughed until I choked. Then I felt bad, becuase... wait for it.... he was serious.
Once I pointed out the true ridiculousness of that statement he felt like a giant doofus, and he owes me a ice cream cone now.
Sorry, it's a little off-topic.
Wolfy

Omg Wolfy....hahahahahahahaha! Tell him they love the frozen food but they don't breed worth crap...being frozen solid and all that! :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MarkS

I've always been of the mind that the ingrediants in the bag are more important then the picture on the front. Here is the list of ingrediants to the brand of Dog food I use, it seems to me that the list is, while not identical, very similar to the list of ingredients on the bags of rodent chow I've used in the past. The only major difference I've been able to determine is the amount of money left in my pocket. With the dog food costing me $11.95 for a 50lb bag, and the harlan teklad costing me over $19.00 for a 33lb bag, the savings really adds up. So, how is feeding dog food 'bad' if it meets all of their nutritional requirements?

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see i get my kent rodent diet for 10.00 a 50lb bag were my dog fog cost me 16.00 a 50lb. bag

Also something that I was told by a friend of my who is a MD with a PHD is that when feeding higher proteins your rats will produce stronger urine. Stronger urine is something we can all do with out.

Richard

If I could find the lab block with a decent price tag, I probably would use it. But it's twice the cost for a smaller bag. I've even called Harlan and was told that they didn't have a distributor around here at all. The guy I was buying the feed from, was buying it from another person so it's marked up even more then if it had been bought from a more direct source. Harlan would be happy to sell it to me directly if I drove to their factory to pick it up, but thats about a 10-12 hour drive for me (round trip)

The dog food I've been using is Sprout dog food which is the store brand for Mills Fleet Farm. They have a lot of different animal feeds under the sprout brand name, I've been thinking of trying the hog feed, I've seen others mention it before but I'm really hesitant to get it because it's small and I'd have to feed in a bowl. One of the reasons I built the racks was so I didn't have to use a feeding bowl, just one more thing to clean every week.

I do get the point though that more variety would be a good thing. I've read before that other animals can get upset stomachs and even go off feed if you vary their diets too much, but it makes sense that rats wouldn't have that problem. After reading frankykenos post about table scraps I even rescued a bag of hotdog buns I'd thrown in the trash earlier that day and gave it to the rats. (I picked off the spots of mold first) I'm a bit hesitant to mess with something that's been working for me, but I suppose some small changes wouldn't hurt.

I have one of those big plastic pails with a lid that you get icecream in and it just lives in the fridge (marked RAT FOOD). After dinner all scraps are put in there and basically it's a mish mash and pretty odd looking but the rats love the stuff. As long as it's kept refrigerated, it's fine for a few days. I also have one bread bag that is kept for ends of various breads, buns, etc. I never toss out those two handfuls that are always left in the bottom of the cereal boxes anymore. I figure why not use what is basically free food to suppliment the rat's diet plus it makes sense to turn my "garbage" into happy rats. :)

http://<a href="http://www.afrma.org...atdiet.htm</a>

I also like this link here. However, the question I have is what do you mix together to get a feed mix with this balance of nutrients?