What could I have done to help? *kinda graphic maybe*

Hey guys. My girl snake so far hasn't wanted to switch over to frozen thawed food, so I've had my neighbor (who's snakes did switch to f/t, but he insists that they miss the kill and that it's better for them to feed live- he just doesn't listen) buy the sm. rat for her and do all the dirty work. Last week he said she grabbed it around the mouth and nose and just went for it... It was silent. Last night I was willing to be in the room since it'd been quiet before and the neighbor told me they didn't normally scream like that (I'd asked because I heard another one die a few weeks before :( ) She did get it killed and get it down rather easily... but the killing took way too long. The rat screamed for over a minute off and on, and then intermittently for another 2 minutes... My neighbor was telling me "just don't listen" yeah right!

This is the same sized rat (supposedly, I TRULY didn't/ don't want to see them live) as last week, and she was glad to eat it... I just wondered if there were anything I could have done for that rat to end the suffering faster. :( Or what can I do to avoid it in the future?

...and while I have a thread going...

My boy BP has upped his feedings by double, 2 weaned mice every week. He's not visibly bigger yet, but he was trying to strike at ME! during feeding yesterday. I fed him one f.t and he hit it so hard it exploded a little, an dthen after cuddling with it a minute he set his sites on me! He even struck a few times, so I just dangled the other mouse for him and once he took to that I got the lid on his tupperware and let him work on the mice in peace. That was way out of character for my boy though... could he have been angry that he got fed Sunday instead of Friday? He's kinda cute when he's mad. hehe.

Sounds like maybe she wasn't wrapped around the rat properly. I've gotten to where I can tell right off if the snake is wrapped correctly and will sometimes make adjustments with a pair of tongs. Usually just prodding the snake a bit will make it wrap tighter/better. But that's one reason I choose to feed mice, they don't 'scream'.

As for the boy snake, I'd suggest upping the prey size.

I don't think theres a best way to feed a snake. If you're comfortable with f/t then feed that. If you want to feed live then feed live. I feed f/t only because I'm too lazy to care for that many mice and rats to feed to 20+ snakes. Not because it's better, just better for me. I do occasionally feed live or pre-killed whenever I get a picky eater. If your BP is having feeding problems I think you should do what is required to get him to feed even if it means feeding live or pre-killed. If you don't want to do it I suggest having your neighbor do it so you don't have to watch. There are many methods used to get a snake to eat. Try cutting the head open exposing the brain. Then feeding it to your BP. Most BP's can't resist the temptation.

As for faster killing. I've seen people put it in a pillow case and smash it against a wall. A teacher I used to have grabbed it with two hands and severed it's neck.

Try feeding him something larger and see how it goes.
Is he in a high traffic area?
Tell us about his setup.
Temps, Hides, enclosure size ect.

personally I have only had a couple of incidents where the rat screamed and it was because as Sarah said the snake was just not positioned well.

It isn't really a factor for me as long as they eat. :oops:

I would not suggest 'smashing a prey item up against the wall' to kill it.

there are many humane ways of killing the prey before giving it to the snake.

:rockon:

I'm personally uncomfortable feeding live, or being directly responsible for a death and I prefer f/t for me and mine. BUT, I have this girl snake that still refuses dead food. She fasted through May while I tried to get her switched, but I couldn't take having a pet that wasn't eating, so I started buying live. I'd tried to feed her f/t at dawn yesterday morning, but she thumbed her nose at it, and I gave it to my neighbor. His corns are my little dispose-alls they'll eat anything, and they're pretty big, so anything I can feed mine his can eat! I give my neighbor f/t food from my freezer and he gets me a small live rat and watches her for me. I'm not even comfortable picking it out or holding the box. I see rats as pets, I know that's weird, but that's just me. Thankfully I have the neighbor boy to do the dirty work for me.. he LOVES it... If she'd eat already dead food, then I wouldn't have any issues. She just won't mess with the dead ones at all, she sniffs it but she doesn't want anything to do with it.

The next size up in mice is jumbo for the male... he was only 135 grams in March when he saw the vet, and isn't too big at all! This is a pic of the boy eating one of his weaned mice just after his early June shed.
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m...060707nag2.jpg

same thing happened to me a while back, when my snake didn't do the best of jobs constricting..the rat was squirming around and i felt pretty bad.

I gave Adam a call to seek some quick advise, and his advise was just to let nature do its thing...he said the Endorphins produced by the mouse were kicking in and chances are the mouse didn't feel anything (because endorphis are natural pain killers)

He was right, my snake finally finished the job after a while and ate. I felt bad, but in this line of 'pets', you sometimes have to learn how to have a cold heart. It's not easy, I don't care to feed live, but sometimes a snake has to eat, and it's up to us, willing or not, to make sure they do eat.

I agree the snakes gotta eat. Just because I don't want to feed live doesn't mean I'll let her starve. I kinda thought if I got in there to help she'd abandon it and possibly go for me... and if the rat were alive still, what then? I bought it to be killed... I just hoped she'd kill it faster and more efficiently. :( Does that just happen sometimes or does it mean that that rat was too big for her or...? The breeder had her on rat pups, but the neighbor is feeding small rats... she gets em down, but man that one last night took a long time to die. :(

NUdging to get them to clamp down harder usually works. I do that with mine when on occasion they don't quite have them constricted enough.
It doesn't bother me, since if I were to feed f/t I'm still responsible for that rat's death too. It's just more honest this way.
The little male might have also been food-fixated and your hand is hot. That's a target at that point to him. It's great that he's going after his food.
If buying jumbo mice is more expensive, think about going to a small size rat, like a hopper/crawler or whichever is the same size as a jumbo mouse. That will get him onto rats, so as he grows you can up the prey size still, and avoid having to buy multiple mice for one snake.
Sounds like you've got some good eaters there! COngrats!
(BTW I like rats as pets too, they are great!)
Wolfy

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Originally Posted by gibbrishclown

I kinda thought if I got in there to help she'd abandon it and possibly go for me... and if the rat were alive still, what then?

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I've never experienced a snake letting go of prey and 'going for me' during a feeding. When I've had to prod them with tongs to get a better wrap, they just adjust themselves.

Why don't you ask the breeder you bought her from to trade out with one that takes frozen? If you are that uncomfortable with feeding a snake that only takes live, perhaps you should consider not having an animal you are not able to feed in a responsible manner.

I think you may have to address your feelings about feeding live... because you might eventually have an animal that just won't take to f/t (I have one), and you have to deal with it. It's difficult, but you have to remove yourself from all of that remorse. It comes with the territory.

I don't think I have to start getting comfortable feeding her live on my own. Not in any hurry anyway. My neighbor is more than happy to do it for me, and she still gets fed every week. The breeder only feeds live too, I'd considered swapping too. Plus the others he had weren't as gorgeous as she is, with all that gold on her. I'll try nudging her with the tongs or something if she ever drags out a killing like that again. Or better yet, have the neighbor boy do it :D

The boy I did try to switch to rat pups a while back, but he refused to eat them. 3 in a row before I put him back on mice. He only likes mice apparently, but he LOVES mice. Matter of fact, my sister's corn wouldn't take the rat pinkies I got him either, just mice for the boys. I'm not terribly concerned about price. In fact I have a tray of jumbos and weanlings from the reptile show in May. So for now, it's money already spent.

I really appreciate you guys' input and suggestions... it's funny how taboo snakes can be! I'm really glad this place is here to come to. I've been admonished on other boards for posting pics of my snakes because it scares some people. In fact I had the girl out front in the grass taking pics with my phone and a jogger asked me if I was not getting reception in the house, and when I told her I was photographing my snake she got back to HAULIN'.

With my snakes I can clear a room of my relatives out in 2 seconds.

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Originally Posted by gibbrishclown

My boy BP has upped his feedings by double, 2 weaned mice every week. He's not visibly bigger yet, but he was trying to strike at ME! during feeding yesterday. I fed him one f.t and he hit it so hard it exploded a little, an dthen after cuddling with it a minute he set his sites on me! He even struck a few times, so I just dangled the other mouse for him and once he took to that I got the lid on his tupperware and let him work on the mice in peace. That was way out of character for my boy though... could he have been angry that he got fed Sunday instead of Friday? He's kinda cute when he's mad. hehe.

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Is it possible that maybe you were standing or sitting too close to him, and maybe he sensed your heat signature?:confused: That's happened to me a few times....

ive had to kill a injured cat that would have had a long painful death other wise. it was the worst feeling in the world to hear it 'scream' thats y i dont really want to feed live to my snake. but becasue he just WONT accept F/T the vet said i should try.

and this is y you dont have a W/C snake. =(

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Originally Posted by SarahMB

Sounds like maybe she wasn't wrapped around the rat properly. I've gotten to where I can tell right off if the snake is wrapped correctly and will sometimes make adjustments with a pair of tongs. Usually just prodding the snake a bit will make it wrap tighter/better. But that's one reason I choose to feed mice, they don't 'scream'.

As for the boy snake, I'd suggest upping the prey size.

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Mice do scream, its just that most snakes wrap around the mice so tight they cant scream.
I know they scream because I had a savanna Monitor lizard and I would feed it 12 live mice in a feeding and one time it got the mouse from behind, That mouse screamed the most sickining scream I have ever heard a creature make that after that I had to wear headphones when I feed him so I would nt head them scream again.
HE would always bite the mice mid body then kind of wipe his head left and right the tilt it up and gulp the prey down.

If screaming prey bother you and your snake wont eat F/T try this,
see if you can get them to pre-kill the mice where you get your live mice. If the place is a cool place they can knock the mice out for you that way they are still warm and fresh.

I have two Wild Caught BP's and they love f/t rats and wolf them down with no problem. It's not really that they're wild caught it's just that some snakes are harder to get to eat than others. They take more patience. Actually it was one of my Captive Bred BP's that was giving me the most trouble.

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Originally Posted by SnakieMom

Is it possible that maybe you were standing or sitting too close to him, and maybe he sensed your heat signature?:confused: That's happened to me a few times....

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Could be. I had him on a medium sized dog crate (slash coffee table to me LOL) and he was in a shoe box tub I was about 18 inches from the tub walking... he just kept striking at me. Once he was full I put him back in his tank and he let me pick him up no problem... It has to be a heat signature or the fact that I'd been thawing mice or something!

She's captive bred too. She just refused to switch to f/t :(

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Originally Posted by gibbrishclown

Could be. I had him on a medium sized dog crate (slash coffee table to me LOL) and he was in a shoe box tub I was about 18 inches from the tub walking... he just kept striking at me. Once he was full I put him back in his tank and he let me pick him up no problem... It has to be a heat signature or the fact that I'd been thawing mice or something!

She's captive bred too. She just refused to switch to f/t :(

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He was probably still in feeding mode, my Ball was like that when I fed it. I fed it in a separate feeding cage that had a lid when I opened the lid he was up and ready to strike. I always wore gloves when I went to get him out of the once I got a hold of him he knew feeding was over.

When I come into the room with F/T rats my RTB strikes at any movement I swear he has superman smell because he know immediately when hes aobut to feed wihtout even seeing me I just have to have a plate to F/T jumbo rats and I guess he smells them.

It is probably a combo of smelling the prey, seeing heat and movement which is causeing him to strike out.

I just love how snakes have no facial muscles for expression but when they are in feeding mode they look evil and their look totaly changes.

Yeah he did look kinda evil, but cute because he's a tiny little 06 and I know he can't really do much damage at his size. I took the girl outside and I could kinda see that she was happy... not that she had any expression like you said, but she just felt happy... LOL

Sorry.. but if you are not prepared to feed live, then maybe you should not own a snake. Some never accept f/t. I have a bunch that will only eat live.
It is the cycle of life. If it is not pretty, so be it. I think that it would be a shame for a snake to not be eating merely because its owner will not offer it live prey if that is what it prefers.

When hungry snakes get two kinds of info, heat and scent they will strike. My snakes can tell when i bring rodents in the room and if they get a heat signal they strike. That is why I prefer to feed them in their tubs. I don't like getting mistaken for dinner. My wife hates to hear the rats squeal(she takes care of them) so I have a stereo in the snakeroom and when Wolfmother is cranked up it's dinertime. Most of my snakes don't eat prekilled, mostly I think they lack heat. I prekill them using a Co2 tank in a sealed tub and try to feed immediately. I have found if I heat them up a little with a blow dryer the snakes are much more interested. Still I feed mostly live. putting some stinky rodent bedding in 15 minutes beforehand gets the scent thing going and most hungry snakes will go after the next thing that goes in the tub live or dead. Try putting mouse bedding first then a rat pup(if you want to switch over). I wouldn't take them out of the enclosure to feed, that alone will make them finicky/hesitant. The only problem I have with live is if they don't eat you gotta catch those suckers and when they are freaked they run like hell!

Not to mention there are some ninja/matrix mice out there that are good at jumping and dodging snakes. Lol.

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Originally Posted by gibbrishclown

I don't think I have to start getting comfortable feeding her live on my own. Not in any hurry anyway. My neighbor is more than happy to do it for me, and she still gets fed every week. The breeder only feeds live too, I'd considered swapping too. Plus the others he had weren't as gorgeous as she is, with all that gold on her. I'll try nudging her with the tongs or something if she ever drags out a killing like that again. Or better yet, have the neighbor boy do it :D

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Ok, well I'm glad you didn't take my post the wrong way, I definitely wasn't trying to be rude about it. But I'm wondering how you plan on taking care of this snake for 20+ years if she never makes the switch. Surely you can't rely on a neighbor for the snake's entire life span.

This is another option,
I would try prekilled, get a cooler and a small critter cage put the mice in the cooler then the dry ice in the small critter cage put the critter cage in cooler with the mice and close the lid in 5 minutes the mice will be dead, take the mice out use a hair dryer to warm them up a little and try feeding the snake that.
I would ask for some mice bedding too so you can put that near the snakes cage to get it in the mood and ready for its food.
The snake shouldnt refuse them unless its a really picky snake.

I guess I am cruel...but I enjoy feeding live...it amazes me everytime.

As for a nicer way to feed the rat...I would say put it in there and watch you will get used to it. Plus it is a rat they are kinda ranked in my book with mosquitos, flys and cockroaches. So I don't really feel bad, plus the ones I buy were born to day...so think of it as them fulfilling their destiny.