IJ Carpet Python X Ball Python!

Giggidy

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=7&de=514179

Sigh... why do people keep making hybrids that there's no demand for? :(

I didn't think it was even genetically possible. I've had a male JCP for over 5 years and never even thought about it, lol.

I wonder what ever happened to the Spider Ball Python X Albino Granite Burmese Python project...

I don't find this snake attractive in the least.

It's kind of evil looking. Who would pay for this?

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Originally Posted by Sausage

Sigh... why do people keep making hybrids that there's no demand for? :(

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Im with you. I think its so sad, I dont think mutations are a beautiful thing in life. poor animals , thats like mixing a panther with a tiger.

It's a beautiful snake IMO. I am not saying that the morals are right though.

I think the snake is beautiful, and I'd be that one really odd person out there that would buy one -- however, not for that price tag. And I'd feel bad about encouraging someone into breeding those just so they could make a fast buck.

Hybrid and/or mutations can be very beautiful in life, but when naturally occuring and not spawned by monetary greed :(
Animals sometimes do hybridize in the wild. There are wholphins (whale+dolphin) and other strange hybrids out there. I think There is a tiger/lion mix too that was found.

DARN! the ad's gone. Any other links for pics? there are a couple of hybrids sites, but they cover things like zonkeys, wholphins, tigons, ligers, etc.

But yeah, that's just wrong. Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it SHOULD be done.

Man screws up nature enough as it is....that's why there are so many endangered and threatened species.....why fuff it up even more, DELIBERATELY?????

I would love to see the pic. I see nothing at all wrong with creating hybrids. My friend has mules that are awesome animals. To decry snake hybrids is hypocritical to me.

I am the one that bred that snake. I didn't post to alot of places do to anti-hybrid thinking. I am being honest as to what they are. If you don't like them that is your choice. http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i2...100_0604ml.jpg

I think the picture above is a beautiful snake!

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Originally Posted by smilin-buddha

I am the one that bred that snake. I didn't post to alot of places do to anti-hybrid thinking. I am being honest as to what they are. If you don't like them that is your choice. http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i2...100_0604ml.jpg

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I think it is a beautiful snake!

:D

I think that snake is awsome looking. As far as hybirds go so like them some dont, look at the F2 Superball, I think certin ones are amazing animals.

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Originally Posted by Jenny_Bp

Im with you. I think its so sad, I dont think mutations are a beautiful thing in life. poor animals , thats like mixing a panther with a tiger.

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Or maybe a Liger? How about a Mule? Maybe a Guineafowl? Perhaps a Cama, Wolphin, Savannah cat, or Zorse?

Personally that's not my favorite cross, but to call it a "poor animal" is relatively silly. Do you realize some of the dog breeds millions of people buy every year have extraordinary health problems? For those that have such "issues" with hybriding, do you feel the same about the more common hybrids? Like the Mule or Hinny?

Why is it that creating morphs for financial reasons more acceptable than hybrids? I realize ethical standards are fairly subjective, but that's just absurd. Persoanlly, I consider making dog breeds that can't breathe through their noses a great deal more unethical than crossing snakes that thrive. And I'm willing to bet, a few of the folks who take "ethical" stances against snake hybrids, own a few of those dogs.

I agree most dog species were/are man made. I dont hear anyone complaining everytime they pick up their little rat looking dog. Its a matter of opinion but before you judge one form of genetic alteration due to select breeding look at them all. Im not sayin i would ever cross breed anything but dont be so quick to judge. And IMO it is a nice looking snake. Remember that every dog species came from the wolf. And I mean every.

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i2.../CARPALLS1.jpg

I even got two sets of twins.

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Originally Posted by smilin-buddha

I even got two sets of twins.

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That's very interesting. I wonder if it was just an anomaly of if it had something to do with being hybrids?

BTW, I was wondering if you could provide some other details. What was the size of the clutch? Did you use a male or female Ball or Carpet?

I Female Irian to a normal male ball python. He had a cool pattern which I thought would match up well. Started with 23 eggs. Some were proven non-viable and were discarded. The remaining eggs were put into the incubator. I ended up having 7 going full term. I cut the eggs on Day 52. That is when I noticed the two sets of twins . So in the end I had 9 lost one to hardedned yolk in the stomach.

I will post some pictures when I get home if you want to see them. I have multiple pictures of the parents as well as the hatchlings.

Wow!

that's pretty amazing. 2 sets of twins!

they are very pretty!

:gj:

I like them.

I think hybrids are cooler than regular morphs to tell you the truth.

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Originally Posted by Jenny_Bp

Im with you. I think its so sad, I dont think mutations are a beautiful thing in life. poor animals , thats like mixing a panther with a tiger.

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Mutations and hybrids are two seperate things......try to get a little informed before you make a strong opinion.

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Originally Posted by sweety314

But yeah, that's just wrong. Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it SHOULD be done.

Man screws up nature enough as it is....that's why there are so many endangered and threatened species.....why fuff it up even more, DELIBERATELY?????

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We do have real global environmental and sustainability problems, but I wouldn't put human hybridization of species anywhere close to the top of that list. In fact, I really woulndt even lisit it as a problem. Exotic species is a much bigger problem for example.

You also assume that nature looks out for us....I can tell you she does not..Nature can be a very neglectful mother.......very little of what we eat today is "natural"...and it has little to do with genetic engineering or pesticide....

Corn, carrots, tomatoes, wheat, sheep, cows, bananas, the list goes on.....were all created by man through selective breeding, domestication, and/or hybridization by early agriculturists....these "unnatural events" that permitted human societies to form.

That's why so much of the opposition to genetically modified foods today is nothing but Pagan-like, Dirt worshiping nonsense.....there is nothing natural about corns or tomatoes..they simply did not exist before man created them...and organic farmers can use some of the strongest pesticides as long as they are produced by living things......

GM crops and livestock, on the other hand, can grow on less land, produce less harmful waste, and often use less harmful pesticides.

But perhaps you want to go back to being a true hunter-gather. And even if we wanted to do that...it wouldn't work today...there are simply too many humans on this planet. We need the green revolution of the 60's and the biotech revolution of today to help meet the global populations needs.

Hybrids are great when the breeder does their homework as this one did.

Hybrids aren't cool when someone just slaps two animals together and says "Get it done." without knowing the possibilities of hereditary genetic troubles and not passing info on. I have a big problem with people who sell animals fullbred or hybridized without full disclosure.

Mom and Dad
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i2.../100_02131.jpg

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i2...a/P4105415.jpg

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Personally that's not my favorite cross, but to call it a "poor animal" is relatively silly. Do you realize some of the dog breeds millions of people buy every year have extraordinary health problems? For those that have such "issues" with hybriding, do you feel the same about the more common hybrids? Like the Mule or Hinny?

Why is it that creating morphs for financial reasons more acceptable than hybrids? I realize ethical standards are fairly subjective, but that's just absurd. Persoanlly, I consider making dog breeds that can't breathe through their noses a great deal more unethical than crossing snakes that thrive. And I'm willing to bet, a few of the folks who take "ethical" stances against snake hybrids, own a few of those dogs.

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I don't believe that any of those mammal hybrids you mentioned are fertile so the cross breeding STOPS with the first generation. As far as dogs go, unless you are talking about Dog/wolf hybrids (which I also disagree with), ALL DOGS BREEDS ARE THE SAME SPECIES, EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM IS CANIS FAMILIARIS..... It's a COMPLETELY different definition of the term 'HYBRID' then what is meant when breeding different species together.

However many and probably even most snake hybrids ARE fertile. THAT is where the problem lies. It does not take too many generations of back crossing to produce animals that outwardly look just like ball pythons or IJ carpet pythons... However they will NOT be ball pythons or carpet pythons, they will still be hybrids that contain a significant amount of genetic material from the other species and you WILL wind up with sporadic and unpredictable results when breeding. It would be like a chemist trying to mix different ingredients together to achieve a certain goal, when one of those ingredients has been contaminated.

Don't think it will never happen, it already HAS happened with other species. NO WHERE can you buy a corn snake and be 100% guaranteed of getting an animal that is pure Pantherophis guttatus guttatus. (or Elaphe guttata guttata for those who have been around longer) The same has happened with many species of king snakes and gopher snakes as well. At one time I thought that ball pythons would be a safe refuge from all the hybridizing madness, but I guess I was wrong about that.

Mark

the way i see it, these are being hybridized (is that a word?) in captivity- NOT in the wild. so, really, what impact is it going to make on anything besides the breeders and owners? maybe if they were breeding different animals together then releasing them into the wild, i'd see it as a problem but....


i think they're gorgeous!:rockon:

Can you post some of the other baby pics?

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i2...a/P6230069.jpg
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i2.../P6230067f.jpg
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i2...a/P6201167.jpg
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i2...a/P6201149.jpg

Wow those are beautiful.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

As far as dogs go, unless you are talking about Dog/wolf hybrids (which I also disagree with), ALL DOGS BREEDS ARE THE SAME SPECIES, EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM IS CANIS FAMILIARIS.....

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It's my understanding that the domestic dog came about as a result of the interbreeding of other species in the canine family, such as wolves, coyotes, dingos, etc... is this correct? If so, it seems like the same situation, only thousands of years earlier than dogs.

I think they are neat looking animals, and I especially like #3. I have nothing against responsible hybridizing... It seems a smart thing to do to have all hybrids microchipped and genetics documented, so that down the line when there are many 75%/25% or similar hybrids running around, their genetic heritage can still be easily identified. Also, as long as hybrids do not outnumber pure species. We want our kids and our kids' kids to be able to behold a pure ball python, right?

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Originally Posted by smilin-buddha

I am the one that bred that snake. I didn't post to alot of places do to anti-hybrid thinking. I am being honest as to what they are. If you don't like them that is your choice. http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i2...100_0604ml.jpg

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Wow; that thing is beautiful. I wonder if it'll retain characteristics from what side? Would it ball up like a BP or try to get away instead? Or would its general body type be thicker and fatter (BP) or slenderer like the JCP?
I would love to know how it matures.

And.. why not name them "Ball-Pets" instead?
Sorry; I am in a goofy mood, hehe. :)

I work in a computer lad. SO I thought it was funny for Carpal tunnel syndrome. I have a warped sense of humor. Todd

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Originally Posted by MarkS

I don't believe that any of those mammal hybrids you mentioned are fertile so the cross breeding STOPS with the first generation. As far as dogs go, unless you are talking about Dog/wolf hybrids (which I also disagree with), ALL DOGS BREEDS ARE THE SAME SPECIES, EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM IS CANIS FAMILIARIS..... It's a COMPLETELY different definition of the term 'HYBRID' then what is meant when breeding different species together.

However many and probably even most snake hybrids ARE fertile. THAT is where the problem lies. It does not take too many generations of back crossing to produce animals that outwardly look just like ball pythons or IJ carpet pythons... However they will NOT be ball pythons or carpet pythons, they will still be hybrids that contain a significant amount of genetic material from the other species and you WILL wind up with sporadic and unpredictable results when breeding. It would be like a chemist trying to mix different ingredients together to achieve a certain goal, when one of those ingredients has been contaminated.

Don't think it will never happen, it already HAS happened with other species. NO WHERE can you buy a corn snake and be 100% guaranteed of getting an animal that is pure Pantherophis guttatus guttatus. (or Elaphe guttata guttata for those who have been around longer) The same has happened with many species of king snakes and gopher snakes as well. At one time I thought that ball pythons would be a safe refuge from all the hybridizing madness, but I guess I was wrong about that.

Mark

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VERY good point. I hope that it will not come down to that for ball pythons. I didn't know of this issue with corns. :rockon:

I think they are nice looking snakes. I never understood the huge moral objection people have with hybrids. I understand people having a problem with people selling mixed breeds as pure, like what happens with a lot of Boas and Carpets, but as long as its marked as a hybrid, whats the big deal? There are still exactly as many pure blood animals around as there were before some guy mixed a IJ with a BP.

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Originally Posted by smilin-buddha

I work in a computer lad. SO I thought it was funny for Carpal tunnel syndrome. I have a warped sense of humor. Todd

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So do I :) Here's to not getting Carpal Tunnel :)
I hope that you'll continue to update us as the snakes get older. I would love to see how they turn out!

Carpall, huh?

Not a fan of how the head turned out...it looks all bug-eyed to me and its nose doesn't look "right."

Hybrids aren't really my thing...this is a perfect example of why. I like my ball pythons just how they are ;) :)

I have a great solution to this whole "I like hybrids" versus "creating hybrids is a sin against Mother Earth and causes global warming" argument.

I call it "Hybrid Offsets". For as many hybrids as you produce, breed that many pure bloods. Preferably morphs ;)

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Originally Posted by Kom@tose

I think they are nice looking snakes. I never understood the huge moral objection people have with hybrids. I understand people having a problem with people selling mixed breeds as pure, like what happens with a lot of Boas and Carpets, but as long as its marked as a hybrid, whats the big deal? There are still exactly as many pure blood animals around as there were before some guy mixed a IJ with a BP.

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Not to start a hybrid discussion, but my personal feelings go something like this. When thinking about a hybrid project, I'd ask myself a few questions;

Will the resulting offspring be healthy?

If they have major deformities, will their quality of life be affected?

What extra care would be required if they do, in fact, require it as a result of the hybridization?

How does the cross affect its captive care requirements? Will I have the resources to identify and meet these needs?

For me, there's too many questions that I'd want answered before going about the project - I don't think its all that humane to stick two different species together, breed them, and hope for the best. Not my cup of tea.

But back on topic, congrats on successfully producing the cross and I hope the babies stay healthy and live long, happy lives.

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Originally Posted by bait4snake

I have a great solution to this whole "I like hybrids" versus "creating hybrids is a sin against Mother Earth and causes global warming" argument.

I call it "Hybrid Offsets". For as many hybrids as you produce, breed that many pure bloods. Preferably morphs ;)

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Taken care of that this year.
One Clutch Carpalls
one Clutch Boas
2 clutches Ball Pythons
1.4 pastels and 6 normals and one cute spotted one.
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i2...a/100_0626.jpg
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i2...a/100_0619.jpg

I should state that some hybrids ARE fertile.

While mules are not, the wholphin is documented as capable of producing young with dolphins. There are some found in the wild, and recently a wholphin in captivity birthed a baby :)

I know it isn't largely impacting the entire "hybridizing is a sin against nature" argument but I jus thought I should point out it isn't true anymore that young are always sterile.

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Originally Posted by smilin-buddha

Taken care of that this year.
One Clutch Carpalls
one Clutch Boas
2 clutches Ball Pythons
1.4 pastels and 6 normals and one cute spotted one.

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HAHA, right on!

See purists, everything is ok. He has attoned for his sins.

Now we have to wonder.. what would Spiders, Pastels, etc. bred to JCP produce? I wonder if half of them would be Pastelly and half (roughly) "normal" in their BP characteristics?

I think they look interesting, although I'm not particularly pro-hybrid myself. The problem I have with it though is in the responsibility of the humans involved. If documented and done responsibly I think hybrids do have their place no matter what the species. But when things happen like someone brought up corn snakes, or even king snakes, where you don't know what's what, or buffalo, where they're trying to bring back the herds, but they're having a lot of difficulty finding pure buffalo in all the cow/buffalo crosses, that's where I have problems with it. Not even so much the cornsnakes though, as long as they're kept captive, and not let go. But I don't think the very different from the normal looking hybrid balls are a problem, because they're so distinct even if the breeder was to not be responsible, then it would stick out like a sore thumb as not a normal ball. I don't see a huge moral difference between inbreeding your morphs, to outcrossing to other species. Both are horribly unnatural, and I find it hard to swallow that you'll get up on your soap boxes and speak against the horrors of unnatural hybrids while all the while breeding unnatural morphs that will probably be so genetically unhealthy and deficient (i.e. some dog breeds) that we'll start running into some ridiculous health problems.

And speaking of dogs, that's an inbreeding problem, not an outcrossing problem. Maybe if they were outcrossed we could over time get rid of some of the ridiculous health problems from centuries of excessive inbreeding.

I think the snakes look cool! I am very curious to see how healthy, what behavior (carpet or ball) and what the demand is for these animals. It's not something I would do but I don't see it as horrific. As far as breeding designer morphs, you are only increasing the gene pool so you should have healthier animals long term. Hybrids are different species that may or may not be compatable so health and behavior concerns are very realistic. If the animals thrive I think it's fine, but you won't know untill you try it. Someone has to play mad scientist. I hope they work out and the animals are happy, healthy and don't have an idenity problem. LOL.

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

Now we have to wonder.. what would Spiders, Pastels, etc. bred to JCP produce? I wonder if half of them would be Pastelly and half (roughly) "normal" in their BP characteristics?

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I'm wondering that myself! Personally, I think it's a beautiful snake, and I'm glad this was brought up so I could see the pics.

I have very few morals to worry about keeping up with, though :D

I say breed these things to a BallXBlood ;)

Then breed that to a BallXAngolan!

At least it would still be 50% Ball in the end, lol.

This is so funny to me...

ooooooooooo, think about a Ball X Green Tree!!!!!!

Sorry... too much coffee. I enjoy stirring the pot a little more :D

I think the snake is interesting looking.. BUT.. many of you are overlooking the most critical issue with hybrids.

Smilin-buddha breeds his ball python and carpet python to see if it's possible and to make some quick cash, and he sells them honestly as what they are.. a hybrid.

Smilin-buddha sells a male hybrid ball/carpet to John Doe, who raises it and breeds it to his female ball python and it reproduces. Some of the hybrids look more "ball pythonish" and are sold honestly as hybrids.

The people who bought these ballxcarpet X ball python get bored (and possibly tired of anti-hybrid people) and put them up for sale. They don't sell very well because even though they look like a ball, they are known to be hybrids and many people are not interested. Perhaps years later one person sells his to the local petshop as a ball python.

My friend happens into a petshop and finds a nice large adult female ball python that looks a little different, perhaps some odd trait. He buys it to breed or perhaps he is hard up for cash some day and offers me an "adult female ball python" and I buy it to help him out and because I can always use another adult female..

Now I could have a hybrid in my breeding colony that is not a pure ball, but I may no idea..

You see.. this is the issue people have with hybrids.

Now, this is my opinion. We are all entitled an opinion. Keep in mind, I am not for or against hybrids so please do not flood me with negative feedback merely because you may not agree with my statements. If you do not agree, please 'discuss it' since that is the reason for this forum.

Rick

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I think the snake is interesting looking.. BUT.. many of you are overlooking the most critical issue with hybrids.

Smilin-buddha breeds his ball python and carpet python to see if it's possible and to make some quick cash, and he sells them honestly as what they are.. a hybrid.

Smilin-buddha sells a male hybrid ball/carpet to John Doe, who raises it and breeds it to his female ball python and it reproduces. Some of the hybrids look more "ball pythonish" and are sold honestly as hybrids.

The people who bought these ballxcarpet X ball python get bored (and possibly tired of anti-hybrid people) and put them up for sale. They don't sell very well because even though they look like a ball, they are known to be hybrids and many people are not interested. Perhaps years later one person sells his to the local petshop as a ball python.

My friend happens into a petshop and finds a nice large adult female ball python that looks a little different, perhaps some odd trait. He buys it to breed or perhaps he is hard up for cash some day and offers me an "adult female ball python" and I buy it to help him out and because I can always use another adult female..

Now I could have a hybrid in my breeding colony that is not a pure ball, but I may no idea..

You see.. this is the issue people have with hybrids.

Now, this is my opinion. We are all entitled an opinion. Keep in mind, I am not for or against hybrids so please do not flood me with negative feedback merely because you may not agree with my statements. If you do not agree, please 'discuss it' since that is the reason for this forum.

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BINGO!!!!!!!! Finally someone gets it........... This already HAS happened to me. A number of years ago I was in a pet shop and saw a pair of Northern pine snakes. They looked slightly different then usual, not much different , just a little more colorful, and I thought they were interesting. So I bought them and raised them up. Then I bred them and when the babies hatched, they were all over the place in looks. One hatchling looked just like a bullsnake, one looked just like a pine snake and the others were somewhere in between. The largest baby was at least twice the size of the smallest and the patterns were a mishmash of this and that. THEN it was very apparent that my original breeders were actually pine snake/bull snake hybrids. I had just spent 2-3 years getting them up to breeding size just to produce snakes that did not breed true.

This WILL happen to ball pythons as well. I also wouldn't mind hybrids if you could always tell which ones are hybrids and which ones aren't. Unfortunatly it's not always possible to do this on looks alone.

Mark

I'm thinking about changing my name to 'somebody'