Parthenogenesis?? I Hope So!!

Hello everyone!

I just stumbled upon this site while doing a bit of research on another forum site, I'm sure a few people hear already know about my story as I posted at 2 other forums, but people seemed interested enough there, I figured I'd let ya'll that haven't heard yet hear!!! Also... I'm also interested in your feedback, if you have any!! :rockon:

I rescued my ball "Mila" about 6 yrs. ago from being killed for no reason. She has never been near another snake since I got her, when I woke up June 28th she was coiled around a nice clutch of about 8 eggs! I did confirm that they are indeed fertile (they look like jumbo chicken eggs & do have veins)
I found someone who is helping me to pass this on to a couple Universities to hopefully be interested enough to want to do some genetic testing & publish their findings...I'm so excited!! and if she is not parthenogenic & retained sperm for that long....I'll still be excited!! I'm also going to try to find out a bit more about this snakes past. :salute:

Thanks,
~Shari

Very interesting. I've never heard of this happening with BP's. I have heard of it happening with burms though.


This might explain why my large female who wasn't bred is now coiling her water dish like my gravid ones did last year. :D :D :D

wow! holy craziness! keep us posted!

6 yrs WOW! :O . maybe she was waiting till she knew you went gonno kill her. maybe she kept them hidden from you :P. o i dunno, but this sounds exiting.. we need pictuires, and contant updates.

ty for this amazing story.

I was thinking the same thing...maybe she waited until she felt comfortable enough, but then I found out it has been too long for sperm retention, I guess I'll have to wait till I get some testing done.
I will be posting pictures soon, I need a new USB cable for my camera, I'm going out today to get one.
I will keep everyone posted (I'd hate to leave y'all hanging!!) & will post pics of my new mama & her clutch ASAP! :D

Thanks!!

~Shari

I am curious to see if they hatch? Weird.

Welcome to BP.net! :handshake


Definitely a fascinating story and I'm very interested in hearing how it plays out! Take your coat off, pull up a chair, grab a beer/soda/tea and stay awhile! :D

Thank you!!

That is CRAZY! :eek: How (if you don't mind me asking) did you confirm them to be fertile?? Can't wait to hear more and see pix!!!! Oh, and hello and welcome! :sunny: You found a great community here!

I assume she candled the eggs, since she did indicate they had veins.


Rick

Fascinating subject.


I've not yet had any issues with retained sperm as of yet, but I expect that the more people breed these magnificent creatures, we will see more of this occuring.

Wow; I would definately be interested in seeing if they do in fact hatch. Weird!

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Originally Posted by sharilynn

Hello everyone!

I just stumbled upon this site while doing a bit of research on another forum site, I'm sure a few people hear already know about my story as I posted at 2 other forums, but people seemed interested enough there, I figured I'd let ya'll that haven't heard yet hear!!! Also... I'm also interested in your feedback, if you have any!! :rockon:

I rescued my ball "Mila" about 6 yrs. ago from being killed for no reason. She has never been near another snake since I got her, when I woke up June 28th she was coiled around a nice clutch of about 8 eggs! I did confirm that they are indeed fertile (they look like jumbo chicken eggs & do have veins)
I found someone who is helping me to pass this on to a couple Universities to hopefully be interested enough to want to do some genetic testing & publish their findings...I'm so excited!! and if she is not parthenogenic & retained sperm for that long....I'll still be excited!! I'm also going to try to find out a bit more about this snakes past. :salute:

Thanks,
~Shari

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Interesting Story...you may want to check out some of the citations in this thread. As a new comer may I recommend to you using the search function of this site as well--it can be very helpful!

Parthenogenesis has been verified in Burmese Pythons so it wouldnt be too surprising if it happened in one of their closely related cousin species. I dont think it is sperm retention. The Authors of the study on the Burmeses do a pretty good job of ruling out that as a possibility.

Keep us posted on these.....

Here's Mila protecting her clutch.....

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil.../2/mila1_e.JPG


Is she squishing the top one's too much??
I see a window........

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...2/mila21_e.JPG



Hope that worked!!
Thanks...
~Shari

Thats so fascinating. I know rats can hold of there babies until they feel its safe to give birth. But wow really keep us updated.

Eggs that are dimpling or caving in this early in the incubation process need higher humidity.

the humidity is 70% it never goes under 60% & it's just those top 2 eggs.

~Shari

Amazing! If I remember correctly there was a thread here, a Komodo produced fertile eggs in a Zoo after absolutely no male contact! Does she have an x-tra lg water dish?... I think I read somewhere that mothers maternally incubating needed a big water dish.... I think? :rolleye2:



Congrats again! And please keep us posted!

I've heard of some pretty shriveled up eggs hatching but if you could get the humidity up to 90+ that might be better. I know it might not be possible to do. I'd be tempted to pack the end of the cage she isn't using a foot deep in sphagnum moss and spray it down good with warm water. You don’t want the mom or the eggs wet but when artificially incubating we often keep humidity close to 100%. You also don’t want to mess up the cage heat flow or create an evaporative cooler but if the cage is low air flow and the moss wouldn’t block the heat that idea might get the humidity back up to where it would be in a hole in Africa.

Also, if there is glass exposed to cooler room temperatures where condensation is pumping moisture out of the cage air you might insulate that glass on the outside. Maybe use a blanket or foam insulation panel but be careful of fire dangers.

It's up to 80 right now....I do have spaghnum moss in there & have been spraying it & letting it dry & a wet towel on top of her hide....I have no trouble at all getting those levels up, thank goodness!! 60 % is the lowest that it will go, but its usually between 70 & 80, but can & will get it higher!!
Also, I have it in a room with no AC it is pretty warm & humid in there already.

I have 2 water containers in there, a large & a small

Thanks!
~Shari

I just got this from another posting:



Here is some literature on maternal incubation, hope it helps.

Maternal Incubation

Should the eggs be incubated artificially or maternally? Most keepers incubate eggs in an incubator, but only, I think, because they are unfamiliar with the female snake’s capability for incubation.

If the eggs are to be left with the female, the temperature in the cage should be maintained in the low to mid-80s, with around 80-percent relative humidity.

Those unfamiliar with maternal incubation are often reluctant to completely turn over the responsibility for the eggs to the female. There is a temptation to turn the entire cage into a big incubator by raising the temperature and humidity above the proper levels in order to "cover their bets."

The female, however, only has the ability to raise the temperature of the eggs. She can’t lower it. If the ambient temperature is already set at 90 degrees, then she no longer has any control over temperature. The female can either conserve or release the moisture generated by egg incubation. Likewise, if the ambient humidity is already at 100 percent, then the female python has no influence over that either.

If a female snake is to incubate her own eggs, give her an environment in which she has some control. Remember that female pythons are perfectly suited to incubate their own eggs!

For species that do not generate their own heat during incubation (e.g., spotteds, balls and carpets) I provide basking areas. In most cases the heat source for the enclosure will be warmer than the average cage temperature, and this can serve as a place for the female to warm herself.

As ambient temperatures approach ideal incubation temperatures, females leave their eggs less often to bask and in some cases won’t leave them at all. Females can be very shy when basking and often return immediately to their eggs if they sense any activity near their enclosures.

In the last few days of incubation females loosen their coils and expose the eggs. As this happens, the temperature of the eggs drops to almost the ambient temperature. It’s important to monitor the humidity in the cage during this time.

The female remains loosely coiled around her clutch as the baby snakes begin to poke their heads through the slits they’ve cut in their eggs. In the wild, the newly hatched snakes would disperse quickly from the nest. In a captive situation this is not possible, of course. I have lost some babies at this point, as they can be accidentally crushed by the female. It’s a good idea to remove the hatchling snakes as they appear, if possible.

Remember, wild snakes do not incubate their eggs in a controlled environment. It’s warmer during the day than it is at night. Sunny days are warmer than cloudy ones. Sometimes it rains, sometimes it rains at night. The extra bedroom where you keep your snakes is stable by comparison. Monitor the temperature and the humidity, try not to interfere too much, and your female will be successfull.

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That eased my mind a bit.....All is good & well, except for that "WINDOW" egg. I just snapped a new pic of it when she moved & it looks kinda funky, I may have to remove it, but I will post a pic in a few minutes & see what you all think. All the rest look wonderful.

Thanks
~Shari

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing. Who knows..maybe some of the hatchlings might be pastels :D .

Oh...and :welcome: .

In my maternal incubation experience (only one time), I checked on the eggs about twice a day and usually had to mist twice a day. Near the end of the incubation period, two of the eggs seemed almost completely flat, but all of the eggs did hatch healthy babies. What's good is the female should be able to tighten or loosen her coils to help control humidity levels within her coils.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sharilynn

I found someone who is helping me to pass this on to a couple Universities to hopefully be interested enough to want to do some genetic testing & publish their findings...

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Hi,

I was wondering if you had heard any more about additional interest in your clutch? Hopefully there will be enough interest out there to at least confirm if this was parthenogenesis. Although the first indication would be that all of the offspring are females if the mechanism is the same as the Burmese.

OK...Here's the funky egg.... soory if its a bit big :P

http://www.ball-pythons.net/gallery/...2/funkyegg.jpg

I am just learning photoshop & all that goes with it....sorry!!

~Shari :oops:

My first clutch is doing that, except the window turned blue, the white of the egg turned beige, and it started smelling. I think it's dead, lol.


This is for Mendel... do you know if the offspring for that Burmese are also reproducing through parthenogenesis?

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Originally Posted by bait4snake

This is for Mendel... do you know if the offspring for that Burmese are also reproducing through parthenogenesis?

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So your asking if the offspring produced by parthenogenesis have temselves reproduced by sexual or asexual reproduction? I'm not sure if they have reproduced at all.......but it is a very interesting question.

If you really want to know, you can contact the correspondence author, TVM Groot, on the paper. His or her e-mail is listed in the paper as the author questions should be directed towards.

Hope that helps....perhaps I'll try shooting Dr. Groot an e-mail a bit latter.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xdeus

Hi,

I was wondering if you had heard any more about additional interest in your clutch? Hopefully there will be enough interest out there to at least confirm if this was parthenogenesis. Although the first indication would be that all of the offspring are females if the mechanism is the same as the Burmese.

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I haven't heard anything yet....I need to find more people to contact that may be interested...know anyone??


I did find the person that gave me the snake & he said the person that used to own it did NOT have any males around her, so that definetly rules out sperm retention.

~Shari

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sharilynn

I haven't heard anything yet....I need to find more people to contact that may be interested...know anyone??

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You can try emailing Dr. Groot from article that MB mentioned in the post before yours. Although he's in Amsterdam, he may be able to direct you to someone in the U.S. that would be interested.

Could it be hemaphroditic or a mutation of some kind? (Not sure of spelling)

Ok everyone....I got my new Accu-rite digital thermometer/hygrometer!!!
I just put it in & it's working it's magic!! Mila just looked at the probe when I dropped it in like "what the heck are you doing now you big dum-dum!!"
I told her it was for her & her babies own good...leave it alone...don't bite me!!

Thanks for all of your help & concern!

I just ran into someone at Wal-Mart who knows a herpetologist from her college & she is going to drop him an e-mail...YAY!!! :rockon:

I can't wait to hear back from her!!

~Shari

Hi Sharilynn,


I just wanted to ask what made you decide to use maternal incubation? Appologies if you answered this elsewhere and I missed it.


dr del

Because I had no clue at all she was gonna lay eggs!! I had her out a couple of days before I found the eggs & didn't even notice any difference in her shape...Anyway, I was never planning on breeding her so didn't have the necessary items for incubation & she looked like she was doing fine on her own, so I left it at that ( I am of course monitoring her VERY closely ) and have you guys to help me if I have any questions.

~Shari

Hello again!!
:hungry:
I was able to feed Mila 2 small f/t mice this evening.....she really needed some nourishment, I've never seen her so thin, but I got to finally move her hide while I had her in a separate enclosure to eat & she had laid 11 eggs!! No wonder she was so thin!!
But 2 of the eggs had to go, they were flat, slimy, stinky & were green, there is still 1 more that is dead, but it is stuck to the others & I left it there, my only worry is the little what looks like gnats in there (getting in the airholes on to of her cage) but I cleaned real good & put new substrate under her eggs.
So out of 11 eggs I have 7 good ones left, momma ate, humidity & temps are optimum & I feel a lot better now!! :w00t:
And that is Mila's update!!

~Shari

ahh...thats too bad about those two bad eggs....at least you have 10 or 11 good ones left !!

This is crazy wierd.....cant wait to see what happens....keep us posted !!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sharilynn

Hello again!!
:hungry:
I was able to feed Mila 2 small f/t mice this evening.....she really needed some nourishment, I've never seen her so thin, but I got to finally move her hide while I had her in a separate enclosure to eat & she had laid 11 eggs!! No wonder she was so thin!!
But 2 of the eggs had to go, they were flat, slimy, stinky & were green, there is still 1 more that is dead, but it is stuck to the others & I left it there, my only worry is the little what looks like gnats in there (getting in the airholes on to of her cage) but I cleaned real good & put new substrate under her eggs.
So out of 11 eggs I have 7 good ones left, momma ate, humidity & temps are optimum & I feel a lot better now!! :w00t:
And that is Mila's update!!

~Shari

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Did you pull her off the eggs?

It would be awesome if you hatched out spiders, pastels, or mojaves. I wonder what she was paired with?

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

It would be awesome if you hatched out spiders, pastels, or mojaves. I wonder what she was paired with?

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I think the point of her post was that she hasn't been paired with anything. That's what parthenogenesis is. If it is indeed parthenogenesis then the babies will all be genetically identical to the mother.

RDR also had this happen to them this year. clutch #59...mother is a lesser virgin and laid eggs

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Originally Posted by NickMyers03

RDR also had this happen to them this year. clutch #59...mother is a lesser virgin and laid eggs

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LOL, I think Grasshopper was messing around when he posted that. I think Ralph is just hiding the male on that clutch. Last season he said he would be hiding a few clutches this year.

Wow- thats interesting!! How long ago were the eggs laid? And please- be sure to get some pictures of them on here when they hatch!!

Might want to put some screen over any air holes that a fly might get through. Don't want maggots in the remaining bad egg getting into the good eggs.

WOW thats awsome. Hope they turn out to be healthy babies. I have a question though. If this does turn out to be parthenogenisis (sp?). then if a Morph BP laid eggs a virgin would all the babies be a morph???:rolleye2:

Genetically identical... They SHOULD be clones, basically, if no male was involved in fertilization.

Should be at about 25+ days now right? How are the eggs doing?

Just out of curiosity, at this point, we would be able to candle the eggs, right?

I thought I read in that Burm case that it was unusual in that the babies where clones, that the previous types of parthogenisis seen in snakes involved a fully homozygous and hence necessarily male offspring from doubling up of the genetic material that the mother would normally give to an egg. In that scenario, it should be possible for a heterozygous mutant female to produce homozygous mutant offspring and normal for the mutation offspring.

Nick is there a link you can provide? I can find RDR's listing of this clutch but no further information on it.

if you are a member to RDR forum they have a thred called clutch 59.. the member Grasshopper said he was kidding as Pfan pointed out though..

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Originally Posted by pfan151

LOL, I think Grasshopper was messing around when he posted that. I think Ralph is just hiding the male on that clutch. Last season he said he would be hiding a few clutches this year.

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I'm curious to see where this goes.