I think my snake has IBD! Please someone help!

Hi everyone,

I got my male BP out today just to check he was ok and he started twisting and rolling around, even worse once I put him down! He also had his head up in the air "star-gazing".

I am extremely worried about him and my first BP (which I have had for 2-3 months now and is perfectly healthy - I hope!), they have been in contact since I got him but only once recently (about 1 week ago or so). He has been sitting around doing nothing for 2-3 days now and I assumed he was finishing his force fed rat put.

Please someone help, I don't know whether to have him looked at or if its too late! and does this mean my female is going to have it as well? I am extremely worried cos I love these lil guys to death :(


All help deeply appreciated!!


TEK

If you think that your BP has IBD, it needs to go to the vet NOW to make sure that he has it. This can easily pass over to all of your other snakes, and it usually kills them in a matter of weeks. There is no cure for IBD, which is why it is so important to quarantine these snakes for at least 60 days, and have at least one or two vet visits during those 60 days to make sure the snake is 100% healthy. If those snakes are not in seperate rooms, (or better yet, seperate buildings with different air supply) seperate them NOW. and to be safe, I would take your other snake to the vet for a check up as well, but at a different day/ session than the snake with the possible IBD to be on the safe side.

Have you had your male for as long as you have had your female or did you just get the male after having the female for those 2-3 months? First thing is to calm down and not panic. IBD is very rare and your snake may have been rolling around to try and get away from you if you spooked it.

Why is he being force-fed?

I have had the male for under a month, it was fine when I got it. I have already moved the male to another room but they have been in the same room for the entire time I've had him and I have held them together many times when I first got him.

I will definitely be taking them both to the vet on separate days! Does anyone have any experience with IBD?

Anyone elses help is very much appreciated!!



TEK

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KLG

Why is he being force-fed?

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Ditto.

Forcefeeding can kill a snake if not done properly and it should only be done as a last resort. It doesn't sound like you have enough experience to even attempt to do this.

Try putting the snake completely on it's back. If it cannot right itself, that is one sign.

Get that and the other one to the vet ASAP and read up on BP husbandry.

I found this article about IBD and it's symptoms on the net. It's from reptiles magazine, but it was the best article that I could find that had pretty good symptoms, and suggestions.

"IBD is a serious, fatal viral infection of boid snakes, first identified in the mid-1970s. It is thought to be a retrovirus. The disease has been seen in large collections in Europe, Africa, the United States and more recently, in Australia. Several cases of IBD have recently been diagnosed in Italy and the Canary Islands. Because the transport of captive snakes in the pet trade and between different zoological institutions frequently occurs, and snakes can harbor and shed the virus before manifesting overt clinical signs, we can expect this virus to spread worldwide eventually. The incidence of IBD in wild snakes is unknown at this time. Herpetologists have many names for this disease, such as twisty, stargazing disease and boid encephalitis."



"In boa constrictors, the first signs may include off and on regurgitation, and some develop head tremors. Dysecdysis (abnormal shedding) may occur. Some develop chronic regurgitation and anorexia (they stop eating). Not all infected snakes regurgitate, however. Boas lose weight and may develop clogged nares (nostrils), stomatitis or pneumonia. The disease can rapidly progress to nervous system signs, such as disorientation, corkscrewing of the head and neck, holding the head in abnormal and unnatural positions, rolling onto the back or stargazing."



"Clinical signs are quite variable. Regurgitation and signs of central nervous system disease are commonly seen in boa constrictors. Stomatitis, pneumonia, undifferentiated cutaneous sarcomas, leukemia and lymphoproliferative disorders have all been seen. Burmese pythons generally show signs of central nervous system disease without showing the respiratory signs. Regurgitation is not usually seen in Burmese pythons."



"Pythons with IBD often develop neurological signs earlier than boas, and these signs are often more pronounced and obvious. Pythons don’t regurgitate as often as boas will. Pythons often show a progressive loss of motor function, usually in the back half of the snake, which may lead to bloating and constipation. Both boas and pythons may hold their tongues out longer when flicking. Chronic pneumonia in boids that is not responsive to antibiotic therapy and nebulization therapy may actually be IBD. Some snakes with IBD are chronically shedding the virus and are capable of spreading it throughout a collection, before clinical signs of the sick snake are realized."



"The snake mite (Ophionyssus natricis) is suspected to be a vector, passing the virus from one snake to another. Often, with an outbreak of IBD, the snakes also have concurrent mite problems. Other possible ways that the virus can be transmitted include direct contact between infected and noninfected snakes, contaminated bedding, venereal transmission and intrauterine transmission to developing embryos in viviparous species and to eggs in oviparous species, although the direct route of transmission has not yet been identified."



"There is still much to be learned about this terrible disease. Blood tests may show signs of viral infection initially, but often the snake will develop secondary bacterial infections due to the immunosuppressive capabilities of this virus. Sometimes the classic inclusion bodies produced by this virus are found in the snakes’ red or white blood cells. A presumptive diagnosis can be made by biopsying esophageal tonsillar crypts, or biopsy of the liver, pancreas, kidney or stomach, in addition to running a complete blood count and plasma chemistry panel. The history and physical examination are also helpful in trying to make a diagnosis. The classic inclusion bodies can be seen in the cytoplasm of certain cells; however, the absence of inclusion bodies does not rule out this disease. The characteristic inclusion bodies found in the cytoplasm are seen in epidermal cells, oral mucosal epithelial cells, visceral epithelial cells and neurons."



"All boid snakes should be considered susceptible. While this disease has not been identified in snakes other than boas and pythons, it is not known at this time whether other types of snakes can harbor or transmit this virus. Also, the primary host of IBD has not been identified."


"Affected snakes either die acutely or starve slowly after several years of anorexia. It is possible to keep a snake alive by force-feeding, but one should not expect a snake to recover from IBD. Infected snakes are chronic carriers and are capable of spreading this disease to other snakes, so euthanasia is recommended if a firm diagnosis is made. Many other diseases can present with the same or similar clinical signs, so euthanasia should not be performed solely based on clinical signs."



"Infected snakes should be euthanized. All new snakes should be quarantined for a minimum of 90 days prior to introduction to an established collection. Recommendations for boas is a 6-month quarantine period. Mite control and elimination is essential. Fiberglass cages that housed infected snakes should be thoroughly disinfected with bleach and then left out in the sun to dry prior to housing another snake. Wooden cages, unless sealed with urethane or some other impervious sealant, should be discarded. The same holds true for wooden hide boxes and cage decorations. "



"For a single pet that the owners would like to keep alive, force-feedings are necessary. Support care is vital. Controlling any secondary infections (bacterial, fungal or protozoal) is important. One nutritional supplement that I highly recommend for any exotic with nervous system signs is called DMG, Dimethylglycine (Vetri-DMG Liquid, available through Vetri-Science Laboratories of Vermont, A Division of FoodScience Corporation, Essex Junction, VT, USA 05453, www.vetriscience.com). This product is very good for the immune system and really seems to be beneficial in controlling some central nervous system (CNS) signs in pets. An infected snake should be strictly quarantined away from all other snakes and reptiles, just to be on the safe side. Fastidious sanitation is mandatory."



"If your snake hasn’t been injured, i.e. the cage top fell on it or it sustained some other trauma, then IBD is a consideration. Other conditions can cause the clinical signs that you are describing. Your vet will want to take radiographs (X-rays) to evaluate the spine and internal organs, and will draw blood for a blood count and chemistries. Biopsies may be necessary. There is a chance that your snake might have a problem involving the spinal column, spinal cord or vertebrae. Infections, tumors and other lesions involving the spine can cause flaccid muscle tone in your snake. I hope your vet will be able to help you with your snake. If your veterinarian is not familiar with IBD, you can always suggest that he or she set up a consult with the lab they use to speak with a consultant with more reptile experience. This is usually offered free of charge to the vets using the lab."
-Margaret A. Wissman, DVM, DABVP has been an avian/exotic/herp animal veterinarian since 1981. She is a regular contributor to REPTILES magazine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KLG

Why is he being force-fed?

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I am wondering the same thing. :confused:

Besides the force feed issue there is also the issue of no quarantine practice. :colbert:

My recommendation is regardless of what happens take them both to the vet. You have already exposed your girl to whatever the male may have or had. The sooner the better to make sure they are both healthy.

IBD usually kills within a few weeks so if you've had them both for over a month then you are probably safe from it. BUT you should still take them to the vet.

Hi,

I agree taking both of them to the vets is a very good idea - try and keep any stools in a ziplock bag in the fridge to take with you (make a note on the bag which snake it came from and remember fridge not freezer).

There are a few possible causes of stargazing, so it doesn't have to be ibd, but the quicker you can get them to a vet to start diagnosis the better as they aren't exactly symptoms you should be ignoring.


dr del

I would never have force fed if the pet shop I got them both from hadn't of told me too. I bought the female about 2-3 months ago and force fed her 2 times and them she started to take the mice by herself almost instantly.

The male I have had for under month and have force fed 3 times, first time was fine, the second time he regurged, and the third time was fine. I am deeply sorry if I have made anyone angry by force feeding, I was only doing as I was told. I read lots of articles on BP care and was never told not to when the BP was a baby.

My female seems to be perfectly fine as usual. I have got the male out again and he started rolling around and excreted when I was holding him. He seems extremely strange, he constantly rolls and twists his head around.

I will never be force feeding ever again.


TEK

Hi,


I don't think the force feeding is whats caused this rather it has a pre-existing condition which was why it wasn't eating.

But your little guy sounds extremely sick and I really would get him to a vet asap.

What are your temps in the tanks and how do you measure them?



dr del

y was the snake being force fed m8? this is a q that everyone wants the answer of and it could be tht that has harmed the snake.

I already explained, I was told by the petshop I got the snakes from that they were not feeding and had to be force fed. The female was fine after the first 2 force feeds so I assumed what they told me was correct. I am an animal lover and I felt very mean force feeding them, however at the time I thought I was doing the right thing.

Once again I am sorry and please do not have a tainted view of me and my care over my snakes. I am really worried about both of them, the last thing I ever wanted to do was hurt my snakes.


TEK

In the future, you may want to do some research and make sure the babies you get are healthy AND eating, and I know you didn't know, but force-feeding is extremely stressful on a snake, and you want to explore different techniques for coaxing them to eat before taking such an extreme measure.

Have you contacted the place you got the snake from to see if anyone else has complained, or if any of their other babies are showing similar symptoms?

What are your temps at? Too high a temp could cause neurological problems with the snake.


Why in the world did you buy, not one, but two non-feeding snakes?
It should have been obvious that the petstore you went to sucks if they are selling snakes that need to be forcefed.

A friend of mine had had one from the same shop for a month or so which was doing really well. He had also been told to force feed it until it took the food on its own.

Once I noticed the problem this evening it was too late and the shop is closed. I will be calling them first thing tomorrow morning to demand an explaination to why they told me to force feed and if any of the other snakes are experiencing the symtoms of IBD.

I am so upset about all of this! Earlier today I thought I had two healthy BPs, now I have one which I am extremely worried about, and the other which is potentially sick as well...

I use Exoterra thermometers and hydrometers for each tank, the males temps were slightly lower in the middle of the tank thank the females. I ordered an £165 vivarium for the both of them (two separate compartments) the other day so that I could get a proper electronic thermometer for each side to make sure my temps were perfect.

I have been scraping by money wise recently so I was only able to order their vivarium a couple of days ago.


TEK

I would tear them apart. They have no business selling animals that need to be forcefed.


Try to get them to a vet as soon as possible.

Good luck.

I am almost certain he has IBD. He just stays still after having rolled around, head upside down. It seems very very strange consider he seemed perfectly normal a few days ago before I stupidly force fed him again.

I can't believe I was told that I had to force feed them, how can someone knowingly tell a customer that when its so far from what actually needs to be done.

Thankyou everyone for your help so far.


TEK :(

Have you scheduled a vet appointment? I would do that ASAP!

Another question, how long would it take my female to begin showing signs that she has IBD as well (if she does)?

I am going to go mental at the petshop tomorrow, it disgusts me that they can openly supply people snakes without knowing how to care for them properly.


TEK

Hi,


It might be helpfull if you described exactly how you went about force feeding but I agree he sounds really really ill.:(

What are the temps in the tank at the warm end? is there anyway you can get an accurate reading (the little round thermometers are useless) and , as previously mentioned, extreme temps can cause neurological problems as well but you obviously don't want to change them if they were right in the first place either.

Is there a wallmart anywhere near you? People use the accurites available from there with great success - I beleive they were $14 or something.


dr del

You're in the UK I'm assuming from the way you spoke of money spent (not in dollar amounts) so WalMart's not an option for you.

That pet store should be closed down for openly selling non-feeding babies to customers with no snake experience, then saying they require force feeding! None of that is correct information! I would be more than angry with that kind of heedless husbandry information.

Please take both snakes in as soon as possible to your vet, you may well have to do some sort of payment plan and you may need to face the loss of one or both of these snakes but best to face up to that eventuality up front. None of us can diagnosis or should but what you are describing is so far from normal hatchling behaviour that I have to be honest in saying it's not a situation that I'd want to be facing. IBD is not the only possiblity but only a good herp vet will know what it wrong and if it's fixable.

Sadly you've learned three very harsh lessons here. One is to never buy from pet stores if you can avoid it unless they are specialist in snakes. Reputable breeders are by far the safer way to go especially for someone new to snake keeping. Two, you didn't quarantine the newly arriving snake and may now face paying a harsh price for that. Never skip quarantine, it's never worth what can happen. Three, you didn't take the responsibility to fully research ball python ownership prior to purchase...that one falls squarely on you and that's the one that's going to haunt you. Always know upfront as much as you can when taking a living creature into your home that you have no experience with.

Once you've seen the vet, I'd be sending a copy of the vet report to that pet shop. If it's a chain sort of one, a copy to both that store manager and their corporate office. This is shameful behaviour and very, very poor customer service let alone the damage this can inflict on helpless living creatures! Other than the toll on you emotionally you face a dollar loss both in the purchase of these snakes and the attendant vet costs. I'd certainly be addressing that with that store and/or it's corporate headquarters as well as questioning their sanity in selling non-feeding hatchlings and encouraging mindless force feeding by unskilled new owners!

I think everyone hear can read your anguish through this thread and we'll do what we can to support you through this mess.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

That pet store should be closed down for openly selling non-feeding babies to customers with no snake experience, then saying they require force feeding! None of that is correct information! I would be more than angry with that kind of heedless husbandry information.

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I think I'm going to tell our reptile specialist at the store that I work at this story. She'll have a heart attack! :O

I have left the male over night and its seems like he has barely moved, and is still "star-gazing". I will be taking him to the vet today, however I am almost certain I will be told he needs to be put down.. :( :(

My other worry is my female, what do you think the chances are of her managing to avoid catching it. She is a great feeder and is substantially bigger than him. Poo is fine and in general seems happy. I cant imagine loosing her as well as him to this evil desease! :(

Their cages were not next to eachother, one is on the top of my desk, the other is in a cubby hole in the desk about a meter away. Like I said before they have been in contact, however the male seemed perfectly healthy the last time I held them together.


I am still very worried and confused about what to do about future snakes and re-infection. I have the worst luck in the world.


Thanks again, you have all been a great help so far.

TEK

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tobiasking

I already explained, I was told by the petshop I got the snakes from that they were not feeding and had to be force fed. The female was fine after the first 2 force feeds so I assumed what they told me was correct. I am an animal lover and I felt very mean force feeding them, however at the time I thought I was doing the right thing.

Once again I am sorry and please do not have a tainted view of me and my care over my snakes. I am really worried about both of them, the last thing I ever wanted to do was hurt my snakes.


TEK

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I would register complaints. Just browsing UK consumer and animal law there appears to be a rich set of laws there:

http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/welf...t/affect.htm#3

http://ts23.gazettelive.co.uk/2007/0...wners_fac.html

Tobias, until you see your vet and get a proper workup on the snake and a diagnosis as hard as it is, there's just not much you can do. Common sense things of course like not handling or bringing in new snakes and just keeping these two comfortable are about it at this point. Please make sure to write down your questions so that when you see the vet you can take notes and get each concern addressed fully during that appointment. Let us know how it goes.

I have been monitoring the male all morning trying to get a vet appointment. They said there was nothing until tomorrow morning so I was planning to keep a close eye on him to see if he recovered at all. After going out for under an hour I have come back to find him dead. :(

When I first read about people having bad experiences with petshops I assumed it would never happen to me. Now here I am with one dead snake, and maybe even a sick one as well, all down to bad instructions and no regard for the animals whilst they are in-store.

I have spoken to the petshop and he claims that force-feeding is needed because they don't know what the food is until they have had a few "tastes" for the first couple of weeks. At the time it sounded like the right thing to do, and no where on any caresheets did it say not to force-feed hatchlings.

I have learn't my lesson not to ever buy a reptile from a petshop ever again, and to find out how to care for them from an experienced breeder. This is a very sad day :( . Thankyou everyone for all advice you have given me, I hope to move on from this disaster and learn to become a much better BP owner and to make sure my female is treated like the lucky star she is.


R.I.P King


TEK

I am SO SORRY. :( I know exactly how you feel because this very thing happened to my first bp, and you never feel like it will happen to you. You will learn from your mistakes. Keep a close eye on the other snake. I know you're hurting right now. I'm very sorry. :hug:

I am so sorry to hear that he didn't make it. :(


As it was so sudden I would still take him (and the other) into the vet. They can do a necropsy on the dead one to find out what killed it and then hopefully help the other from getting sick too.

Also, I would go after the pet store and see what resolution you can get from them (directly or legally)

Keep us posted.

I have been told by a vet to apply a small amount of 'Frontline' to a cotton ball and lightly apply is down the back and belly of the snake. Wait for several minutes until is is completely dry, then whipe it off in the same way using a cotton ball soaked in water.

I was also told to get some 'F10' , which is supposed to be a very good disinfectant to completely clean her cage to help make sure she doesnt get it as well. To be honest I am now expecting her to get it, it doesn't seem like I am lucky enough to escape it, however I will do my best to try and prevent it. :(

All I want is for my remaining BP to be 100% healthy... its almost like having severe paranoia waiting to see if she starts acting all crazy like my male (R.I.P).


I am going to wait for a fair few months before considering getting another snake, I don't think I would be able to handle going through this again. Infact, anyone reading this, QUARANTINE YOUR ANIMALS and avoid the pain I'm going through.



TEK

I wouldn't dare put Frontline on a snake. Too much of it can be harmful to a full grown dog. There's a product called Provent-a-mite that you can order online that will get rid of mites.

Sorry to hear this.:(



I agree with Lord Jackel, since you have the vet apointment made I would put the poor little fella's body in a ziplock bag in the fridge (not the freezer) and take it along to get a necropsy done and a wellness check on your little girl.


dr del

I think the vet ment a very small amount just for a few minutes, then completely wash it off. Anyone else had experience with frontline and BPs?

Darkangel could you maybe link me to a website which ships to the UK? Having snakes is so much easier living in the USA. :P

Thanks again everyone!


TEK

Frontline for what?? Does your snake have mites or is this just preventative?

And Amy, Frontline is not dangerous to dogs or cats, and can only cause mild reactions in those that are allergic to the product. Advantix yes(to cats), Frontline no. The pet-store/feed store products are the ones that are dangerous and can cause severe reactions, and even death. I've even used Frontline on my rats and they are just fine.

And if you have just regular household bleach, that is fine for cleaning out King's enclosure.

I sure hope your vet can do a necropsy soon(within 24 hours) so you can get closure on how he could have died. if you wish to get him necropsied, just to have proof for the pet store in case you want to take action, keep his body in the refrigerator(no freezing). I'm sorry for your loss, hun, and I hope your other snake will be alright.

Yeah Becky, now that you say so, I think it was one of the store bought products.. My friend's dog had a SEVERE reaction, and I think I've even heard horror stories of worse happening.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tobiasking

I think the vet ment a very small amount just for a few minutes, then completely wash it off. Anyone else had experience with frontline and BPs?

Darkangel could you maybe link me to a website which ships to the UK? Having snakes is so much easier living in the USA. :P

Thanks again everyone!


TEK

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The vet must be concerned about mites since they are a way that the disease can spread. Personally, I would be reluctant to put Frontline on my snake. I would try to get my hands on the product these guys recommend (Prevent-a-mite). If I couldn't get ahold of it or something very much like it right away I would follow the vet's advice simply because there might be a time factor to consider. I would recommend asking your vet about it if you don't feel comfortable. He may know more.

Is your vet experienced with snakes at all? You should be careful that you don't have your hands on a vet that really only does cats and dogs.

Also, don't write off all pet stores as being evil. There always seems to be a bad one around but they do vary. You don't need to buy from them but they may be able to give you some good information. Try calling around to other stores that specialize in exotics and ask them about products for killing mites and if they recommend any particular vets in the area.

There is a very good chance your snake did not have IBD. It could have been born with a birth defect that affect nervous system. I had a ringer that was born with a neurilogical defect and it didn't show up until she was a few months old. Not all animals are born healthy and not all were meant to survive. Don't give up on the other one yet. IBD would have probably affected her already. Although symptoms may look similar there are several things that could cause this that are not transferable. Don't give up hope! :)

Yea it is more of a preventative measure, from what I can see she doesn't have any mites. My local vet isn't experienced with snakes, the vet I spoke to had very good knowledge of snakes and their diseases, so I assume using frontline is best to prevent them starting, rather than prevent-a-mite.

I will do abit more research into both products. Apparently bleach etc. doesn't kill IBD bacteria so F10 is a must.

I haven't got the money at the moment to send King off to be examined, however after watching a video on youtube of a Boa with IBD I am almost 100% sure that is what he had. The eratic movements of the body and head were identical to King's.

Link to video:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=QBHmHgfAlao


TEK

I'm sorry to hear the little guy didn't make it. :(

The transmission of IBD is not well understood yet, but one of the suspect forms of transmission is snake mites, which is probably why your vet recommended that treatment. If your snake is already infected, frontline (or anything for that matter) will do nothing to help the eventual outcome. Disinfecting and sterilizing everything is still a good idea.

If you suspect you have mites (which is a definite possibility considering the source of the animals) Provent-A-Mite is the way to go. I would avoid frontline even though it has been used successfully to treat reptiles, as it is much more toxic, MUST be completely washed off, and there is much less room for error. If you are unable to get ahold of some PAM, you should be able to find Nix or a similar head lice product with the active ingredient of permethrin at a concentration of 0.5% or less. If you go this route, make sure there are no other active ingredients in it.

If there were no mites on the snakes, there is a good chance that the female was not infected. Some keepers have had animals with IBD in their collection, and did not have problems with widespread infection.

I hope your little girl is fine. You should know in a couple months.

-Evan

Bleach doesn't kill IBD? Are you sure? I thought it killed, pretty much everything. It will kill HIV.

Add: I would be surprised if the virus lives more than 12 hours on any surface. This of course does not get rid of the mite problem however. Make sure the other snake is as far away as possible from anything the other one touched.

http://www.nationalparks.nsw.gov.au/...col_snakes.pdf

Hi,


Before making up your mind watch the video in This Post - that is not ibd but the symptoms look similar.


It's entirely up to you and you certainly know your finances best but a necropsy would have told the vet what to look for /treat in your little girl.


dr del

I can understand what you mean in that video, however King was far more eratic, very much like the boa in the video I linked. It was almost like he was having a fit everytime he moved.

I will definitely look for PAM before considering frontline. I have not seen any mites at all on my female, she is just sitting around digesting her mouse from yesterday morning. Once 48 hrs is up I'll get her out for a closer look at her behaviour.

I am going to hold back on getting another snake for a good few months to see how Oriana's health is. I was originally planning to buy a double vivarium but now I should wait as to prevent the new snake being infected.


R.I.P King

TEK

Hey man... i see you havent been on here in forever!!! but what ever happened with the female you had? im guessing she ended up not getting sick????

and did you ever find out if king did have IBD???

have you gotten anymore snakes ??? your post was like a novel.... and bam, it ended!!! i wanna know the ending!

thanks